Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[rkt.india]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Ball always seams a bit in tests in England. But so many batters used to score regularly there.

 

No. that is not the case. When batsman are scoring means ball is not doing as much.  conditions are different always and pitches also behave differently.  and not always ball seams or swing. 2007 Oval, we scored 600 runs, Kumble scored  a 100 and the most interesting thing was no other Indian batsman could score a 100 in that series.  3 100s were scored by England batsman. in 2011, only Dravid could score 100. IN 2014, no batsman stood out. Vijay and Rahane both had one good innings.

 

Batsman will score those 100s only when ball is not doing much, not every pitch does a lot, not every day, every session ball swings and ball will not seam all the time..  

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, Vilander said:

agree there is swing and seam in this game. But less of swing at times and no uneven bounce and no alarming seam movement through. Meaning its a pitch were bats can score...some poor shots like one from Rahane, some geneuin good balls like one for Vijay..

There is alarming seam movement for sure at times.  Ishant picking 3 wickets in one over is the biggest example. two left handers. Malan delivery seamed away from round the wicket after pitching middle stump.

[Vilander]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

There is alarming seam movement for sure at times.  Ishant picking 3 wickets in one over is the biggest example. two left handers. Malan delivery seamed away from round the wicket after pitching middle stump.

i think you are discounting accurate line and hitting spots to extract this from the pitch -> that happens in every game. There is a skill in that, i did not see seam movement like that through out the game.

[Vilander]

11 hours ago, express bowling said:

Now that we have become a good bowling side in tests  ... picking 20 wickets regularly both home and away (  my childhood dream ) ...  we have become an amateur batting side.

 

The irony  !

man i want to cry...* if we had Sachin( kohli), Dravid ( who?), laxman( who ?) now. then we are good but * no, it had to be this.

 

Now we are Pakistan.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Vilander

[rkt.india]

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Ball always seams a bit in tests in England. But so many batters used to score regularly there.

 

 

There are no demons on this pitch. Every expert who has inspected it, including Ganguly, Manjrekar, Hussain, have said that the pitch looks good. Some seam movement is pretty standard in most SENA countries.

 

Batsmen are having difficulty because they don't know how to tackle consistent swing.

 

 

Looks can be deceiving. Seems like you have not watched the game.  Commentators words are no gospel.  

 

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The moment the swing has reduced when the sun shone, even tailenders have looked decent.

 

This happens all the time and now just now. 

 

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Those batters I mentioned used to score regularly in England when the ball swung a lot and seamed a bit.

when has that happened?  England had a very poor attacks through out the 90s and 2000s. Their 2007 bowling attack was mediocre at best.  None of our batsman scored a 100 in 2007.  We were saved by rain at Lords.  Oval was absolute road. 2011, you already know how did it come out. 

 

Batsman will mostly only score big when conditions are flat and this goes for most batsmen.  Exceptional innings like Clarke counterattacking 100 against SA few years back are always there but they are not norms.  We have seen those same batsmen crumbling even in India when ball moved from Deon Nash taking 6-fer at Mohali in late 90s to Nagpur 2004 and Ahmedabad 2006 and you think they scored runs in swinging and seaming conditions in England.  Most runs are scored only when conditions were flat.  Past is always glorified.  

 

Against, these bowlers, they would have had same fate as well.  2010s, England have their best fast bowling attacks with Anderson and Broad peaking.

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, Vilander said:

man i want to cry...* if we had Sachin( kohli), Dravid ( who?), laxman( who ?) now. then we are good but * no, it had to be this.

 

Now we are Pakistan.

yeah we would have suffered like 2011.

Edited August 4, 2018 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, Vilander said:

i think you are discounting accurate line and hitting spots to extract this from the pitch -> that happens in every game. There is a skill in that, i did not see seam movement like that through out the game.

and England bowlers are far more accurate and consistent than ours, bowls less loose ball too, so, think how much more difficult it is for our batsman. For us, only Ishant was consistent in second innings.  For England, Anderson, Broad, Curran and Stoke all three are posing similar difficulties.  

[express bowling]

20 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

No. that is not the case. When batsman are scoring means ball is not doing as much.  conditions are different always and pitches also behave differently.  and not always ball seams or swing. 2007 Oval, we scored 600 runs, Kumble scored  a 100 and the most interesting thing was no other Indian batsman could score a 100 in that series.  3 100s were scored by England batsman. in 2011, only Dravid could score 100. IN 2014, no batsman stood out. Vijay and Rahane both had one good innings.

 

I was talking about Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly performing consistently in England before their twilight years.  So, cutoff would be the 2007 tour.    The 2011 and 2014 tours are not relevant to this discussion.

 

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Batsman will score those 100s only when ball is not doing much, not every pitch does a lot, not every day, every session ball swings and ball will not seam all the time..  

 

Kohli has a 149 and a 43 not out on this pitch. Yes, one easy catch was dropped in the first innings ( the 2nd one was difficult )  but that is part of the game. The reason why he has done better is because he has wanted to stay at the crease, leave a lot of deliveries, play with soft hands and stand outside the crease to negate the swing.  These are basic techniques to counter swing.  Kohli looked like an absolute rookie when he did not apply these in 2014.  

 

Tackling genuine swing or sharp spin or steep bounce can only be done if proper technique is used.

 

Gavaskar, Vensarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly had better techniques against swing.

 

 

[Vilander]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

and England bowlers are far more accurate and consistent than ours, bowls less loose ball too, so, think how much more difficult it is for our batsman. For us, only Ishant was consistent in second innings.  For England, Anderson, Broad, Curran and Stoke all three are posing similar difficulties.  

accuracy yes , Eng all bowlers together are more accurate that sum of all of India ( ind has problem - Umesh in first inning - Hardik always, Shami in his latter part of first spell in second inning ). But as the game is poised i dont expect unplayabe seam movement in the first session, sun will be out..hot day.

[rkt.india]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

Kohli has a 149 and a 43 not out on this pitch. Yes, one easy catch was dropped in the first innings ( the 2nd one was difficult )  but that is part of the game. The reason why he has done better is because he has wanted to stay at the crease, leave a lot of deliveries, play with soft hands and stand outside the crease to negate the swing.  These are basic techniques to counter swing.  Kohli looked like an absolute rookie when he did not apply these in 2014.  

 

Tackling genuine swing or sharp spin or steep bounce can only be done if proper technique is used.

 

Gavaskar, Vensarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly had better techniques against swing.

 

 

Kohli had 2-3 catches dropped in first innings and one not given out by umpire as they had no reviews left.

 

Quote

I was talking about Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly performing consistently in England before their twilight years.  So, cutoff would be the 2007 tour.    The 2011 and 2014 tours are not relevant to this discussion.

England bowling was mediocre in 90s and 2000s. they had likes of Mullaly, Mark Elham, Sidebottom, Tremlett.  Anderson was a rookie in 2007.  In 2002, you go past Hoggard after that it was easy.  Even Hoggard are not great bowler. Here, you have to face 3-4 highly skilled fast bowlers who do not give everything away, no loose balls or easy bowlers and 2011 is very much relevant.   Current Anderson and Broad are two of their best fast bowlers produced in last 30 years.

[express bowling]

39 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

 

Looks can be deceiving. Seems like you have not watched the game.  Commentators words are no gospel.  

 

I have watched a significant part.  There was seam movement but nothing alarming.

 

 

39 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

 

when has that happened?  England had a very poor attacks through out the 90s and 2000s. Their 2007 bowling attack was mediocre at best.  None of our batsman scored a 100 in 2007.  We were saved by rain at Lords.  Oval was absolute road. 2011, you already know how did it come out. 

 

Batsman will mostly only score big when conditions are flat and this goes for most batsmen.  Exceptional innings like Clarke counterattacking 100 against SA few years back are always there but they are not norms.  We have seen those same batsmen crumbling even in India when ball moved from Deon Nash taking 6-fer at Mohali in late 90s to Nagpur 2004 and Ahmedabad 2006 and you think they scored runs in swinging and seaming conditions in England.  Most runs are scored only when conditions were flat. 

 

You don't always need great pacers in swinging and seaming conditions. Accurate seamers who can move the ball can be a handful. Just look at what our military medium seamers did in 1983 and 1986 in England.

 

39 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Past is always glorified.  

Many people to it.

 

But you know well  that I am one of the few debating AGAINST them.

 

Just saying that Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid etc.  had better technique and temperament against the moving ball than Dhawan and company.

 

 

39 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Against, these bowlers, they would have had same fate as well.  2010s, England have their best fast bowling attacks with Anderson and Broad peaking.

 

But Tendulkar and Dravid were old with slower reflexes and inadequate eyesight etc.

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Kohli had 2-3 catches dropped in first innings and one not given out by umpire as they had no reviews left.

One proper dropped catch by Malan at 21.   The 2nd one was a hard flash and Malan had to dive.  More often than not they don't stick. Regarding that sound, it was not clear at all that it touched the bat.  

 

Many of the edges falling short were due to playing with soft hands.

 

Moreover, a bit of luck is needed in extreme swinging conditions ... but the will to stay at the crease and the improved technique was there.

 

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

England bowling was mediocre in 90s and 2000s. they had likes of Mullaly, Mark Elham, Sidebottom, Tremlett.  Anderson was a rookie in 2007.  In 2002, you go past Hoggard after that it was easy.  Even Hoggard are not great bowler. Here, you have to face 3-4 highly skilled fast bowlers who do not give everything away, no loose balls or easy bowlers and 2011 is very much relevant.   Current Anderson and Broad are two of their best fast bowlers produced in last 30 years.

 

Broad was sick, Anderson 36 and slow, Curran a rookie trundler and Stokes a high average all-rounder ... people will say this 10 years later. Depends on how you look at it.

 

Thing is, when the ball swings this much, you don't need big names or quick bowlers if the batters have inadequate techniques and low will to survive.

[MechEng]

An old interview with Wasim Akram.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/140418.html

Edited August 4, 2018 by MechEng

[prudent_kreeda]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

One proper dropped catch by Malan at 21.   The 2nd one was a hard flash and Malan had to dive.  More often than not they don't stick. Regarding that sound, it was not clear at all that it touched the bat.  

 

Many of the edges falling short were due to playing with soft hands.

 

Moreover, a bit of luck is needed in extreme swinging conditions ... but the will to stay at the crease and the improved technique was there.

 

 

Broad was sick, Anderson 36 and slow, Curran a rookie trundler and Stokes a high average all-rounder ... people will say this 10 years later. Depends on how you look at it.

 

Thing is, when the ball swings this much, you don't need big names or quick bowlers if the batters have inadequate techniques and low will to survive.

     batsmen are not using thier basic technique of defense enough when ball is doing something is very evident here . Check how may balls  did they face  in top 5 apart from VK. In even those 10-15 balls they could survive there were 1-2 catches . Thts very poor for top 3 batters . 

  Also they  do not seem to have a counter plan - 

   To counter movement they can try standing outside the crease . I think only VK and DK in second innings tried it . Result both Stokes and Curran had to bowl bit short . You may still get out to a rising ball esp. from Stokes as he has pace , but this should work well against Curran  .  If DK had not done this , he could not have survived against Stokes yesterday. 

  Curran got 3 wickets with full pitched in dippers  . They could have been a bit more open chested when facing him  and also well outside the crease to negate that .  Also creates a chance to score runs on on side . I think from here on, Curran would not be that big success as indians would counter him better as they had a good look now . 

Atleast these 2 bowlers- they could have handled a little better and survived a bit longer. 

 

 

 

[prudent_kreeda]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Kohli had 2-3 catches dropped in first innings and one not given out by umpire as they had no reviews left.

 

England bowling was mediocre in 90s and 2000s. they had likes of Mullaly, Mark Elham, Sidebottom, Tremlett.  Anderson was a rookie in 2007.  In 2002, you go past Hoggard after that it was easy.  Even Hoggard are not great bowler. Here, you have to face 3-4 highly skilled fast bowlers who do not give everything away, no loose balls or easy bowlers and 2011 is very much relevant.   Current Anderson and Broad are two of their best fast bowlers produced in last 30 years.

      Gavaskar , Vengsarkar they scored against Bob Williss, Ian Botham , Mike Hendrick , Chris OLd .  If anyone thnks they were not

      good compared to this this attack , then some thing is wrong !

      I think one should  watch again videos how dravid played in England and NZ .  Its just for nothing that he scored a lot in these 

      countires. When even great players like Shoib , Akram , Lee agree that dravid , Sachin had very very good defense , its   

     strange they are being belittled this way! 

      

         

 

[express bowling]

Md. Siraj    5 wickets in the 1st innings of the A-team game against SA.

 

He now has 20 wickets from only 2.5  A-Team games in the last month. ( Unofficial test matches )

 

He has pace and is in the form of his life.

 

Get him in the India test team for the last 2 tests.

Edited August 5, 2018 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:48 AM, Vilander said:

man i want to cry...* if we had Sachin( kohli), Dravid ( who?), laxman( who ?) now. then we are good but * no, it had to be this.

 

Now we are Pakistan.

Bro, you are forgetting that even that Pakistani lineup didnt have such pussies in their line up. The likes of Salim Malik, Ijaz ahmed, Moin Khan etc were ready to die on the pitch, than give their wickets away. 

The current Indian batting line up is full of pussies. They act all macho off the cricket field.

 

On 8/4/2018 at 11:39 AM, express bowling said:

 

I have watched a significant part.  There was seam movement but nothing alarming.

 

 

 

You don't always need great pacers in swinging and seaming conditions. Accurate seamers who can move the ball can be a handful. Just look at what our military medium seamers did in 1983 and 1986 in England.

Just saying that Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid etc.  had better technique and temperament against the moving ball than Dhawan and company.

 

 

 

 

 

A) I didnt feel the pitch had any venom. It was a regular pitch, nothing alarming about it. B) The english attack of 90's was no pushover. They had bowlers like Darren Gough, Caddick. And then some not so regular bowlers like Harmison etc. I think one of the posters here really has some romantic ideas in his mind or has never watched 90's cricket.  Not to forget that the pitches in the 90's were much much more venomous! 

 

 

[Suhaan]

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Md. Siraj    5 wickets in the 1st innings of the A-team game against SA.

 

He now has 20 wickets from only 2.5  A-Team games in the last month. ( Unofficial test matches )

 

He has pace and is in the form of his life.

 

Get him in the India test team for the last 2 tests.

Yes playing a struggling Umesh is not going to get you fruits,he should have been replaced by Siraj

[rkt.india]

12 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Bro, you are forgetting that even that Pakistani lineup didnt have such pussies in their line up. The likes of Salim Malik, Ijaz ahmed, Moin Khan etc were ready to die on the pitch, than give their wickets away. 

The current Indian batting line up is full of pussies. They act all macho off the cricket field.

 

A) I didnt feel the pitch had any venom. It was a regular pitch, nothing alarming about it. B) The english attack of 90's was no pushover. They had bowlers like Darren Gough, Caddick. And then some not so regular bowlers like Harmison etc. I think one of the posters here really has some romantic ideas in his mind or has never watched 90's cricket.  Not to forget that the pitches in the 90's were much much more venomous! 

 

 

Tendulkar never played Gough in tests. Caddick was an average bowler. Their 96 attack had Mark Elham, Cork, old Frazer and Chris Lewis.  Regarding this pitch, it was not a regular pitch and that showed in the scores.  No team scored over 300 which tells you about the pitch and conditions. It was a kind of pitch where you were never in and you could get an unplayable delivery at any time.  Ball seamed and swung both ways through out the game, at times ball swung despite sunshine.

[rkt.india]

On 8/4/2018 at 11:49 AM, express bowling said:

 

Thing is, when the ball swings this much, you don't need big names or quick bowlers if the batters have inadequate techniques and low will to survive.

batsmen struggle in such conditions despite having great techniques.  there is a lot of luck factor at play when it happens.