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Speed and performance of pacers and spinners in important matches

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5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What about Kuldeep?? Yes he picked 5fer so ,he was playing odis and t20s and played world cup .he would have played Ranchi test if he was fit.

 

What has playing in ODIs and T20s got to do with test match success !

 

He was dropped in the tests vs the WI after getting a 5-fer in his last test.

 

He was fit then. And it was grossly unfair to him.

 

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Vihari played first test against SA and when they opted for five bowler she had to sit nothing wrong with that, Ishant sat out in Ranchi test too.

 

So ... they are ok with having to sit out for a match or two when the captain wants.

 

And what about Pant ?

 

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No you are completely wrong, team building is not done by sitting fit and deserving senior players so youngster can gain some experience.This no1 team in world and they are building a legacy.

 

They are planning for future, it does not have to include playing these youngsters at the expense of seniors.All those players are playing domestic matches. I agree they have to include one young fast bowler for ODI teams.

 

Where I have problem with selectors is they are playing all these TTF is domestic tournaments at the expense of youngsters.Don't take 2000s Indian team, that team had a revolving door for young fast bowlers who were mostly use and throw.

 

There is culture of fast bowling developing all the bowlers coming in will be ready and as Kohli said the attitude had to be changed , fast bowlers had to believe they could play major part in wins in India too, that attitude change has to come to spinners too when they travel to SENA. I have not seen that attitude change either in Ashwin or Jadeja yet.

 

All this theory sounds good to read. But, god forbid, Bumrah is still not fit for NZ test series and one of Shami or Ishant picks up a niggle just for the series or one of the tests in NZ ... you will understand what I am saying now.

 

Half our super legacy in tests will be out of the window if we lose in NZ.

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5 hours ago, express bowling said:

Manju is now making up a top quality fast bowling attack of Archer (  England ), Rabada ( SA ), Starc and Cummins ( Australia ) to put the Indian batsmen in trouble against the pink ball.  :phehe:

 

How does he plan to put together that attack ?  :phehe:

That line up will put 

 

Smith kohli williamson root pujara top order in trouble as well. 

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25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

What has playing in ODIs and T20s got to do with test match success !

 

He was dropped in the tests vs the WI after getting a 5-fer in his last test.

 

He was fit then. And it was grossly unfair to him.

 

 

So ... they are ok with having to sit out for a match or two when the captain wants.

 

And what about Pant ?

 

 

All this theory sounds good to read. But, god forbid, Bumrah is still not fit for NZ test series and one of Shami or Ishant picks up a niggle just for the series or one of the tests in NZ ... you will understand what I am saying now.

 

Half our super legacy in tests will be out of the window if we lose in NZ.

It indicates form.Kuldeep after IPL is not the the same player, they watch him more closely than you.There was nothing unfair about it.Jadeja plus Ashwin offer more with bat and ball.

 

I am perfectly ok with what they have done.Pant I don't agree as Saha has limited life and he does not offer anything with bat.I would not have dropped Pant and they are wrong in dropping Pant.It is upto Pant to make himself undroppable though by performing in odis and t20s.

 

You don't play in fear of getting hurt and plan for it by dropping fit and performing players, if they get hurt it will open up chances for others it is upto the players coming in to grab their chances. Bumrah got hurt in WI. Umesh stepped up, 

 

What if Saini stinks and you drop Yadav and Ishant who are at their peak for him, they lose all their confidence and rhytm.Dhoni used to do the same with his idiotic captaincy in odis especially away from India , if fast bowlers picked up early wickets he would bring in Raina and other part timer immediately to face new batsmen in hope of finishing fifth bowler cheaply there by letting other team off the hook.When the fast bowlers returned they were tonked by settled batsmen for plenty and they got abused and no one touched Dhoni.

 

If they lose in NZ then they are not as good as we made them to be.Playing Saini or Siraj against Bangladesh won't change that fact.

 

Edited by putrevus

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4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

It indicates form.Kuldeep after IPL is not the the same player, they watch him more closely than you.There was nothing unfair about it.Jadeja plus Ashwin offer more with bat and ball.

 

No ... T20 or even ODI failure does not indicate test form. If that was the case then Pujara would not have played a single test.

 

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am perfectly ok with what they have done.Pant I don't agree as Saha has limited life and he does not offer anything with bat.I would not have dropped Pant and they are wrong in dropping Pant.It is upto Pant to make himself undroppable though by performing in odis and t20s.

 

It is not a question of whether you are ok or not ... nor is it a question of how good Saha is.

 

You were discussing whether leaving out performing players is fair to them. 

 

Pant was dropped after he performed, supposedly for the good of the team.

 

So, lack of fairness does exist.

 

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You don't play in fear of getting hurt and plan for it by dropping fit and performing players, if they get hurt it will open up chances for others it is upto the players coming in to grab their chances. Bumrah got hurt in WI. Umesh stepped up, 

 

What if Saini stinks and you drop Yadav and Ishant who are at their peak for him, they lose all their confidence and rhytm.Dhoni used to do the same with his idiotic captaincy in odis especially away from India , if fast bowlers picked up early wickets he would bring in Raina and other part timer immediately to face new batsmen in hope of finishing fifth bowler cheaply there by letting other team off the hook.When the fast bowlers returned they were tonked by settled batsmen for plenty and they got abused and no one touched Dhoni.

 

If they lose in NZ then they are not as good as we made them to be.Playing Saini or Siraj against Bangladesh won't change that fact.

 

 

I am not talking of a single instance here.

 

Make it a policy to try 1 new fast bowler against weak teams, till the time we have a pool of 5 good pacers for tests.

 

Want to play Umesh and Ishant  ... fine ...  but then rest Shami for 1 test.  He is playing all formats and can afford to sit out of a single match.

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3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

No ... T20 or even ODI failure does not indicate test form. If that was the case then Pujara would not have played a single test.

 

 

It is not a question of whether you are ok or not ... nor is it a question of how good Saha is.

 

You were discussing whether leaving out performing players is fair to them. 

 

Pant was dropped after he performed, supposedly for the good of the team.

 

So, lack of fairness does exist.

 

 

I am not talking of a single instance here.

 

Make it a policy to try 1 new fast bowler against weak teams, till the time we have a pool of 5 good pacers for tests.

 

Want to play Umesh and Ishant  ... fine ...  but then rest Shami for 1 test.  He is playing all formats and can afford to sit out of a single match.

I can offer my views only just like you can offer yours as neither of us are in a position to dictate what actually happens on the field.

With that out of the way, form in any format is an indication on player current performane.Kuldeep is not the same bowler he was after Sydney test.

There is a reason why a form player in one format who is perfoming in one format  is picked for other formats.It has been done all the time and it will continue in future too.That is how it should be done.

 

Pujara plays only one format now and Pujara is established player versus Kuldeep.Why was Kuldeep bad in IPL and also not effective in world cup, did he get sorted out.That is legitmate question. WI they were playing three fast bowlers , who were they supposed to drop to make room for Kuldeep.

 

Ashwin was dropped too in WI for first test. 

 

Test team they are handling it fine, odi/t20 teams lack balance, that is where IPL is such a boon for these young fast bowlers. They should put their hand up and force the selection.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, putrevus said:

I can offer my views only just like you can offer yours as neither of us are in a position to dictate what actually happens on the field.

With that out of the way, form in any format is an indication on player current performane.Kuldeep is not the same bowler he was after Sydney test.

There is a reason why a form player in one format who is perfoming in one format  is picked for other formats.It has been done all the time and it will continue in future too.That is how it should be done.

 

And it has lead to choices like Raina, Yuvraj and Dhawan playing so many tests.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

WI they were playing three fast bowlers , who were they supposed to drop to make room for Kuldeep.

 

Jadeja ... as we were playing 7 specialist batsmen anyway.

 

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

Test team they are handling it fine, odi/t20 teams lack balance, that is where IPL is such a boon for these young fast bowlers. They should put their hand up and force the selection.

 

 

I have said all I had to say on this ... no point repeating the same.

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10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

They showed an over by Shaheen Afridi bowling in Adelaide.

 

Releasing the ball between 134 kph to 137 kph that over.

 

And the good length balls reached the batsmen around 28 kph to 30 kph slower.  One full ball reached 25 kph slower.

 

 

Yes ,but in his second over where he got Burns caught behind was bowled at decent pace,next delivery to Marnus Labuschagne was at 144ks

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33 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Yes ,but in his second over where he got Burns caught behind was bowled at decent pace,next delivery to Marnus Labuschagne was at 144ks

 

Talking about the speed reductions on reaching the batsmen.

 

They showed just 1 such over today. Showed a few such balls in Brisbane too.

 

Even in Australia,  the speed reduces by around 28 k.  May reduce by 32 k + in Asia.  

 

Quantum of reduction in speeds obviously depend on the bowler too.

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4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Talking about the speed reductions on reaching the batsmen.

 

They showed just 1 such over today. Showed a few such balls in Brisbane too.

 

Even in Australia,  the speed reduces by around 28 k.  May reduce by 32 k + in Asia.  

 

Quantum of reduction in speeds obviously depend on the bowler too.

Yes i think bowlers who hit the deck mostly get their pace reduced while reaching the batsmen

Skiddy pacers hurry batsmen like Shami,Steyn

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Khaleel 

 

142.4 

142.3 

 

On domestic speed gun in SMAT

 

Bowling 137 k to 142 k mostly

 

 

Nope. Not sold. To be avoided unless and until he atones with 3 seasons of excellence.

Edited by sarchasm

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40 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Nope. Not sold. To be avoided unless and until he atones with 3 seasons of excellence.

 

I too don't want him playing for India now. He needs some solid FC experience and performances. 

 

He made it to the senior side primarily because he is a left armer ... and I don't like it as the main basis for selection.

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8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I too don't want him playing for India now. He needs some solid FC experience and performances. 

 

He made it to the senior side primarily because he is a left armer ... and I don't like it as the main basis for selection.

It's a strange one. You look at the great cricket sides of Windies, Aus, and even the recent saffer side - none of them needed the crutch/variety of a left armer. I can understand a single person infected with the wasim akram syndrome but in our case the entire group of selectors/team management seem to be aboard this fallacious idea.

 

The lesson for us as fans is that our whole structure is often under the influence of seductive ideas that have no legs to stand on in real world. This is a systemic flaw that can undo/compromise our cricket despite all the talent we have to work with.

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1 hour ago, sarchasm said:

It's a strange one. You look at the great cricket sides of Windies, Aus, and even the recent saffer side - none of them needed the crutch/variety of a left armer. I can understand a single person infected with the wasim akram syndrome but in our case the entire group of selectors/team management seem to be aboard this fallacious idea.

 

The lesson for us as fans is that our whole structure is often under the influence of seductive ideas that have no legs to stand on in real world. This is a systemic flaw that can undo/compromise our cricket despite all the talent we have to work with.

threat of incoming delivery and awkward angles to right handed batsmen ( which is most of the batsmen). i suppose its because players are not units or automatons they do what they are able to at that time most of the time. so perhaps the TM is hedging by selecting a left arm pacer as an option.

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3 hours ago, sarchasm said:

It's a strange one. You look at the great cricket sides of Windies, Aus, and even the recent saffer side - none of them needed the crutch/variety of a left armer. I can understand a single person infected with the wasim akram syndrome but in our case the entire group of selectors/team management seem to be aboard this fallacious idea.

 

The lesson for us as fans is that our whole structure is often under the influence of seductive ideas that have no legs to stand on in real world. This is a systemic flaw that can undo/compromise our cricket despite all the talent we have to work with.

No, I beg to differ. Speaking from personal experience, it is difficult to face a left armer. I have only played junior level, and the first 3-4 balls used to be very difficult to track coz the mind wouldnt register so easily that the ball would release from left arm. 

Khaleel is just wasting his talent.

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8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

I too don't want him playing for India now. He needs some solid FC experience and performances. 

 

He made it to the senior side primarily because he is a left armer ... and I don't like it as the main basis for selection.

There are many left armers who didn't make it because they were left armers. He made it because he had done well in SMA trophy that time. Everyone watched it, was bowling quick, being left arm made it easier. 

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4 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

No, I beg to differ. Speaking from personal experience, it is difficult to face a left armer. I have only played junior level, and the first 3-4 balls used to be very difficult to track coz the mind wouldnt register so easily that the ball would release from left arm. 

Khaleel is just wasting his talent.

It does work at senior level like that. They all have played plenty of left armers. If ball isn't swinging, left armers have very few wicket taking options against right handers. If opposition has more left handers then you do need a left armer.

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8 hours ago, sarchasm said:

It's a strange one. You look at the great cricket sides of Windies, Aus, and even the recent saffer side - none of them needed the crutch/variety of a left armer. I can understand a single person infected with the wasim akram syndrome but in our case the entire group of selectors/team management seem to be aboard this fallacious idea.

 

The lesson for us as fans is that our whole structure is often under the influence of seductive ideas that have no legs to stand on in real world. This is a systemic flaw that can undo/compromise our cricket despite all the talent we have to work with.

god-tier left-arm pacers have always been few and far in between. we should not explicitly play a leftie just for the sake of it. just choose the best pacers. returning to god-tier left-arm pacers, the only two that come to mind in the last 30-40 yrs are akram and reid. davidson was more of a medium-fast bowler.

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1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

There are many left armers who didn't make it because they were left armers. He made it because he had done well in SMA trophy that time. Everyone watched it, was bowling quick, being left arm made it easier. 

 

There are many pacers doing well in domestic cricket and bowling quickly too.

 

Like Prasidh in List-A or Mavi and Avesh in FC.

 

But they don't even make it to our A-team squad or playing 11 with any kind of regularity.

 

Shastri explicitly said that they were looking for a left armer and was trying Khaleel due to this reason.

 

If there was a passable 30 year old bowling left arm seam, preferably a TTF with a long history of failures in international cricket, then Khaleel would never have had the chance to serve beer to Shastri in the Indian dressing room.

 

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8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

There are many pacers doing well in domestic cricket and bowling quickly too.

 

Like Prasidh in List-A or Mavi and Avesh in FC.

 

But they don't even make it to our A-team squad or playing 11 with any kind of regularity.

 

Shastri explicitly said that they were looking for a left armer and was trying Khaleel due to this reason.

 

If there was a passable 30 year old bowling left arm seam, preferably a TTF with a long history of failures in international cricket, then Khaleel would never have had the chance to serve beer to Shastri in the Indian dressing room.

 

the unadcutter will return soon enough. I think our ODI "attack" for 2023 WC may look like this: unadcutter, deepak chahar/bhuvi, bumrah and shankar/dubey as the 4th "pacer".

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13 minutes ago, Vijy said:

the unadcutter will return soon enough. I think our ODI "attack" for 2023 WC may look like this: unadcutter, deepak chahar/bhuvi, bumrah and shankar/dubey as the 4th "pacer".

 

If Bumrah can be replaced by Kaul then their mission would be accomplished fully.

Edited by express bowling

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

If Bumrah can be replaced by Kaul then our their mission would be accomplished fully.

ah, yes, how did I forget our punjabi speedster - the great kaul. this will be a fearsome quintet for sure. kaul, unadcutter, bhuvi, deepak chahar, dubey.

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2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

It does work at senior level like that. They all have played plenty of left armers. If ball isn't swinging, left armers have very few wicket taking options against right handers. If opposition has more left handers then you do need a left armer.

Ohh. I guess you have played plenty of cricket in the senior level. Did you play against Mitch Johnson and Wasim Akram too?

 

 

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17 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Saw in the morning ... 2nd innings speeds

 

Archer

Fastest.   141.x  kph

Average   135.x  kph

 

Only 1 ball above 140 kph.

 

NZ commentators saying that Archer has not bowled at anywhere near his Ashes speeds.

Haven't watched last ashes live..can Archer get the traditional way of wickets like lbw and caught of nicks in tests.. or is he more of good length/ short length bowler 

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1 hour ago, Vk1 said:

Haven't watched last ashes live..can Archer get the traditional way of wickets like lbw and caught of nicks in tests.. or is he more of good length/ short length bowler 

 

In the Ashes 2029, Archer got quite a few caught behind wickets with good length channel and off-stump balls.  

 

In NZ, not only is he bowling slower but he is not getting the seam movement that he was in England. Hence, his off stump and channel balls look less threatening. But he is bowling them nonetheless.

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6 hours ago, Vilander said:

He over stepped. It was a big noball.

Sure it was. However, I genuinely believe that overstepping doesnt have as much effect on the final speed of the ball. As per my understanding, it would still be a 90mph or maybe 89mph if it was a genuine delivery.

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