panther Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The question is not about the right of people to live there...they obviously can...it was more about a forcible religious conversion and then the converts demanding a separate country...You could have converted and still continued to be part of the same country like millions of muslims in India... BTW, your statement legitimizes Bangladesh...they always lived there isn't it? No right for people from another land to come and rule them ( yes...you are from another land ) Well I believe in Pan Islam not nationalism so I am not a big fan of the Modern muslim states even if they claim to be Islamic such as pakistan and Iran. I don't know unless we have facts that most muslims were forcefully converted we are assuming too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filandering Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Having a very limited world view and being unaware of history of religious persecution over the last few centuries like you do = Problem Making sweeping generalizations unsubstantiated by facts like you did = Also a BIG Problem I believe you also were guilty of the same there. World is not made of monoliths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 India votes against Israel in UN. ****. :finger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gs Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 India votes against Israel in UN. ****. :finger: I hope there is more to it than the eye can see. Hope they have well established back channels to take care of any fallout this vote might have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 why did Palestine continue to shoot missiles during ceasefire ? it shows that they want war and people support them. When these groups are in a state of war they behead people but when Israeli missiles kill women and children then its a crime. The point is that there is a larger issue/conflict but this war was started by Palestine, is being continued by them but its just that they dont like it as more Palestinians are dying, would you be arguing for Israelis if the casualties were other way around? Yes more Palestinians are getting killed but they have had opportunities to stop that but they didnt. Now cry all you want but thats the reality. Sorry man but you are factually incorrect... ...rockets didn’t fall out of the sky from nowhere. Go back a few months: the breakdown of negotiations by Israel; the war on Hamas in the West Bank following the murder of the three yeshiva students, which it is doubtful Hamas planned, including the false arrest of 500 of its activists; stopping payment of salaries to Hamas workers in Gaza and Israeli opposition to the unity government, which might have brought the organization into the political sphere. Anyone who thinks all this would simply be taken in stride must be suffering from arrogance, complacence and blindness. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606042 Gaza has been under de facto Israeli occupation for the last 7 years- that is all land crossings, ports, air routes are blocked and it has a crippling effect on the people there- Hammas want that to end. Hammas has more than shown themselves capable of sticking to ceaseifres in the past- in June 2008 for instance, only for the Israelis to not stick to their side of the deal and even violate that ceasefire The UN recorded seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) violations of the ceasefire between 20 and 26 June, and three violations by Palestinian groups not affiliated with Hamas between 23 and 26 June.[57] On 18 December, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, reported 185 Israeli violations during the lull period.[58] The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center reported a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull, including 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before 4 November.[59] It noted that "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire" until 4 November, when the ceasefire was "seriously eroded."[60] Rocket fire decreased by 98 percent in the four-and-a-half months between 18 June and 4 November, compared to the four-and-a-half-months preceding the ceasefire.[61] Hamas denied responsibility for the rocket fire during the lull. Human Rights Watch reported that Hamas security forces demonstrated an ability to curb rocket fire while some people detained for rocket fire were released without explanation.[62] No concrete steps were taken by Israel to ease the blockade on goods going in to Gaza despite it being part of the terms of the ceasefire- or at least there was little practical difference made to the people there. As for the supposed ceasefire last week- there were no Hammas reps present as part of that supposed agreement. The Israelis and Egyptians and I think the P.A happily hammered out a deal between themselves This is what Hammas have demanded as part of a cease fire now, all reasonable but no one cares: Withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence; release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested; an end to the siege and opening of the crossings; opening of a port and airport under UN management; expansion of the fishing zone; international supervision of the Rafah crossing with Egypt; an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and closure of Gaza’s air space to Israeli aircraft; permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque; and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government; opening Gaza’s industrial zone. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606042 Hammas only need to look at Mahmoud Abbas who bent over backwards to appease the Israelis only to have illegal settlements continue apace in the West Bank. Hammas dont helpthemselves to a large extent, there is corruption and mismanagement of funds that they do get. They should have condemned the kidnapping of those three kids if they did not actually have a hand in it The line that Hammas have the destruction of Israel as one of the aims in their charter is bandied about alot but in practice it is different. In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons " Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office. Although there are younger more militant leaders who do think Israel should be destroyed they are no different from the right wing in the Israeli government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 How can anyone not support Israel for its courage...It is the size of Mumbai and struggling for existence...Look at its surroundings....My respect for Israel has increased multiple times...I wish India had a tenth of its mental fortitude and Al-Qaeda' date='LeT would have been burnt to hell...[/quote'] Yeah quite easy to have courage when you have $ 3 Billion a year in military grants flowing into your coffers from the USA. Not to mention political and diplomatic backing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 why did Palestine continue to shoot missiles during ceasefire ? it shows that they want war and people support them. When these groups are in a state of war they behead people but when Israeli missiles kill women and children then its a crime. The point is that there is a larger issue/conflict but this war was started by Palestine, is being continued by them but its just that they dont like it as more Palestinians are dying, would you be arguing for Israelis if the casualties were other way around? Yes more Palestinians are getting killed but they have had opportunities to stop that but they didnt. Now cry all you want but thats the reality. As for why the world should care, did Palestinians care when Mumbai attacks happened, if not then why should Indian care ? You wish to believe in brotherhood or whatever then feel free but people are free to have their opinions. Just like a lot of people didint give a feck about 9-11 or even accept is as a real terrorist attack, call Mumbai attacks a drama etc, the same way people have freedom to express what they think of the Israel-Palestine conflict. As for secularism, these are favorite Pakistani views Saudi Arabia mistreating people from other religion or women - "their county, their rules" A dumb cartoon in a secular country - burn the flag, kill the writer, riots and threats. Hamas wasn't even involved in the 'ceasefire' discussions. You can't violate something which wasn't in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yu54aSM6QOE J08GqXMr3YE WC4Fl0cX9So but israel and hamas used/uses human shield.. difference is humans used its own people as shield but israel used palestenians as a human shield end result .. innocent Palestinians who suffers from both ends The myth of Hamas’s human shields http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 This thread is a microcosm of why Israel-Palestine is not worth focussing on. When a problem becomes unsolvable, then there is no point in trying to solve it. People have predictably slid into the whole 'who is worse/what caused this' angle to things. Those factors are important in determining 'what to do about this' but as usual, there is much less ideas and thought focussed from all parties- the israelis, the palestinians and everyone else- on simply what the eff to do that can/might work. The end goal should be to end the human suffering in the region once and for all. If that is the recognized primary goal, then the path towards it has to be investigated more dilligently. But reality is, that is not the goal. Not of the bystanders, not of Israel, not of the palestinian leadership itself. Their goal is to win ideological battles and land rights first and foremost. When all parties focus on the irrelevant factors ( how to win your side of the battle) and forget the prime directive of ANY society (to provide safety,security and free social mingling amongst its populace), then it becomes a problem that has no solution possible. Worst case scenario of Gaza-Palestine-Israel is probably 5-10 million Arabs-Palestinians dead or 5-10 million Jews dead. Yes, very very depressing but its not something we have never seen or heard of before but atleast that will be the end to neverending conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 This thread is a microcosm of why Israel-Palestine is not worth focussing on. When a problem becomes unsolvable, then there is no point in trying to solve it. People have predictably slid into the whole 'who is worse/what caused this' angle to things. Those factors are important in determining 'what to do about this' but as usual, there is much less ideas and thought focussed from all parties- the israelis, the palestinians and everyone else- on simply what the eff to do that can/might work. The end goal should be to end the human suffering in the region once and for all. If that is the recognized primary goal, then the path towards it has to be investigated more dilligently. But reality is, that is not the goal. Not of the bystanders, not of Israel, not of the palestinian leadership itself. Their goal is to win ideological battles and land rights first and foremost. When all parties focus on the irrelevant factors ( how to win your side of the battle) and forget the prime directive of ANY society (to provide safety,security and free social mingling amongst its populace), then it becomes a problem that has no solution possible. Worst case scenario of Gaza-Palestine-Israel is probably 5-10 million Arabs-Palestinians dead or 5-10 million Jews dead. Yes, very very depressing but its not something we have never seen or heard of before but atleast that will be the end to neverending conflict. If that happens, Arabs-Palestinians will find some one else to fight with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filandering Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Hamas wasn't even involved in the 'ceasefire' discussions. You can't violate something which wasn't in place. Correct. They are completely entitled to keep launching rockets notwithstanding so called cease fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undisputed chap Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Why can't everyone just realise that every single human being is a chewtiya & just try to move on. Try to treat others with dignity. I see no point in fighting for something which can't really be defined & doesn't care or isnt strong enough to do anything of value for the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 The line that Hammas have the destruction of Israel as one of the aims in their charter is bandied about alot but in practice it is different. In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant' date=' but cannot be changed for internal reasons " [b']Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office. Although there are younger more militant leaders who do think Israel should be destroyed they are no different from the right wing in the Israeli governmentWell, if Hamas wants peace all it needs to do is to change its charter. Why should Israel treat an entity sworn to destroy it with anything but disdain and hostility ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Well' date=' if Hamas wants peace all it needs to do is to change its charter. Why should Israel treat an entity sworn to destroy it with anything but disdain and hostility ?[/quote'] I dont disagree, but actions - the fact that they have shown they can commit to a ceasefire in the past - speak louder than words on an ancient charter Also you realise the Likud party in Israel believe exactly the same thing- i.e as far as theyre concerned they dont want anything like a viable Palestinian state. So equally, Hammas could say the same thing Why should they treat an entity sworn to destroy it with anything but disdain and hostility. Hammas are a politcally elected entity and Israel needs to start treating it as such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 8EDW88CBo-8 A important introduction video about the conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Correct. They are completely entitled to keep launching rockets notwithstanding so called cease fire :facepalm: Hamas didn't violate ceasfire equates to Hamas is entitled to launch rockets. Please don't try your hand at logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velu Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 The myth of Hamas’s human shields http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html video proof is there :(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filandering Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 :facepalm: Hamas didn't violate ceasfire equates to Hamas is entitled to launch rockets. Please don't try your hand at logic. One more try. They were never invited at the table and they never accepted or violated the ceasefire hence let the rocket firing continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 ^Come on, youre deliberately being obtuse. You know that is not what is being implied here. How about : Gaza is under an oppressive inhumane occupation with no end in sight, hence let the rocket firing continue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Meet this retard Muslim...Lives in Gaza conflict zone endangering his family members - 4 wives, 54 children. :omg: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6iKFQDEP4]ISLAM: Brainwashing Palestinian Children - YouTube[/ame] These retards are brainwashing their children by glorifying jihad and glorifying death in war against Israel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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