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In Kashmir, Indian security forces use pellet guns that often blind protesters


Asim

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Our padosis seem to think that stones are soft cotton balls and gulab ke phool. When hit by a stone it is very painful and can lead to permanent damage. It is  a weapon.  I am sorry for those injured with pellets and am  also equally sorry for those jawans who have to put up with these stone throwers. How long can the jawans be restrained.?

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^ ur research over these images is sad+funny... u r exploding internet to match those x-ray graphics which r showing how these pellets remain inside bodies and calling it propaganda however at the same time your research skills gone dead and eyes are totally shut to view 100s of other actual victim images (Im sure u must have tried to make photo search for all other images too, but where u ended up?) and worldwide news sources covering this brutality by indian forces (there's some reason I have not quoted a single Pakistani media URL)

Edited by Asim
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Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

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1 minute ago, Asim said:

Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

what is your opinion about your ex army chief and dictator coming in the TV and accepting that they supported the terrorists including osama bin laden and waged proxy war with india through the same terrorists  ??

only defence that you may have is musharaff lied or drunk when he made that statement :giggle:

 

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42 minutes ago, Asim said:

^ ur research over these images is sad+funny... u r exploding internet to match those x-ray graphics which r showing how these pellets remain inside bodies and calling it propaganda however at the same time your research skills gone dead and eyes are totally shut to view 100s of other actual victim images (Im sure u must have tried to make photo search for all other images too, but where u ended up?) and worldwide news sources covering this brutality by indian forces (there's some reason I have not quoted a single Pakistani media URL)

you are the one who is posting pictures from unverified twitter accounts and @sarchasm has pointed that out. Yet you dont agree that is propaganda.  Why this special interest from a Pakistani towards Kashmir ? just because majority are muslims. you have millions of issues you would be better of  concentrating on them.

Edited by gattaca
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Im sort of glad that all of indians actually does not have any real defense over indian army brutality in Kashmir...

so far only types of arguments, which r quite lame to be honest, are: i. its propaganda (bcz we r on criminals side so better call it propaganda, despite the fact whole world media has reported this multiple times but since its against us so lets just call it propaganda) ii. they too throw paid stones and payment is made by Pakistan for each stone (horribly hilarious) iii. ham nay kashmir mai yeh kar lia to kya hua, tumhari taraf b to yeh hota hey, Balochistan, Usama daikho, Afghan, Taliban blah blah...

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3 hours ago, Asim said:

Im sort of glad that all of indians actually does not have any real defense over indian army brutality in Kashmir...

so far only types of arguments, which r quite lame to be honest, are: i. its propaganda (bcz we r on criminals side so better call it propaganda, despite the fact whole world media has reported this multiple times but since its against us so lets just call it propaganda) ii. they too throw paid stones and payment is made by Pakistan for each stone (horribly hilarious) iii. ham nay kashmir mai yeh kar lia to kya hua, tumhari taraf b to yeh hota hey, Balochistan, Usama daikho, Afghan, Taliban blah blah...

Bhai, Earlier Kashmiris were claiming mass rape, mass killing. Now you are complaining about pallet guns. No of innocents+security forces injured by by stone pelting granades bullets of terrorist > terrorist injured. Since India has limited voice on global stage it is paying these cost. Forget about West, even China dont take such crap from Muslims of Uighars and no one really gives a hoot about that.

And offcourse if this was we

st, they will expose and cleanse these paid thugs rioters and religios fundamentalust and terrorist in a week.

 

Wait few years and Kashmir will be no issue like Uighur

Edited by mishra
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On 7/24/2016 at 8:54 AM, Adi_91 said:

I am confident that Pakistan will implode sooner rather than later. When you have terrorists carrying out protest marches, it is a matter of time.

 

Quote

Dont pick on our misguided brothers. Entire country is falling apart - hard for them to compete at that level when they are struggling for survival. 

 

@Asim

wheres this coming from ? .... :phehe:

 

 

Edited by KeyboardWarrior
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Actually, Asim is right. This was a blunder by the Indian security forces.

The fact is, there are plenty of teens and tweens who are political in their own right. This does not negate the usage of children by Islamic terrorist fomenting agencies inside India, either. These teens, tweens will go to protest march and that is also their democratic right. The usage of these unnecessary pellet guns is deplorable and very short-sighted, since best way to piss off a community is to maim their young, bright and political types. 

 

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On July 26, 2016 at 0:27 PM, Asim said:

Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

 

The bolded part is why I've noticed, Indian or otherwise, very few people take Pakistanis such as yourself seriously. You are biassed because of a combination of 'land greed + using religious brotherhood syndrome to justify greed' about Kashmir. Simple. 

Its because so few Pakistanis understand the concept of law and what is legally true or not - perhaps this explains why your country is a hotbed of terrorism and nobody can do much about it, because your legal body is weak and deficient, through the length and breadth of the nation.


Kashmir is not Indian Occupied area. Kashmir is legally a part of India. The criterias of referendum in Kashmir have not been met by either side (Pakistan or India) and India cannot meet its criteria without Pakistan taking initiatives first, since referendum cannot be sought from a legally owned state unless the state can conduct de-jure and de-facto referendums in the area in question.

 

That is basic legalism 101. Most Pakistanis simply cannot see the fact that if there is EVER to be a referendum on Kashmir, on any international basis, then Pakistan *HAS* to clear out of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas.
At best, it can hope for a UN peacekeeper enforcement of law and order & military presence, leading to dismissal of every single Pakistani government employee in the region as well. This would be the legal outcome if this case ever actually proceed for any legal resolution and China got a say in the matter, for example. 

Even then, India is 90%+ likely in such a tilted court, to simply argue its LEGAL sovereign rights over all of Kashmir and point the finger at Pakistan, that had Paksitan accepted LoC as the de-facto border, atleast, it could invoke a few special circumstance precedence to call for referendum in Indian-held Kashmir. But as of now, Pakistan wants to trigger a legal separation process from the legal sovereign of Kashmir, aka republic of India, while occupying part of this region, thus preventing the rights of the legal sovereign being represented in all corners of the territory in concern. Ergo, it cannot happen, unless Pakistan vacates Kashmir first. Do you Pakistanis even get this basic concept or not ?


Since the LoC is not a recognized border, the De-Jure and De-facto border of Kashmir is under occupation from Pakistan. 

 

These are legal facts, which is why there can be no legal challenge to Indian presence in Kashmir unless Pakistan clears out first. Have you ever wondered why Pakistan has never ever won a case in ICJ or any international mediation over Kashmir in 70+ years of existence ? 

So, if you wish for us to take your concern for Kashmir seriously, start acting seriously and recognize the basic principles of LAW first. 

 

Edited by Muloghonto
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On 27/7/2016 at 0:57 AM, Asim said:

Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

Yes it is the only option.  U can argue about pellet guns or bullets  or make a smart remark/dig about protection methods but not about what the army should do.  It is not about protecting themselves but  rather about the situation they face. In these kind of situation any army in any part of the world is allowed to shoot and kill the protesters either with pellet guns or normal bullets. To maintain law and order all over the world even the police has the right to use force against the protestors and here we have a situation where the people have actually killed the police officer(an incident that  you seem to either forget or ignore). The army does not think whether it's actions are morally and ethically right or wrong. The army simply  exists to protect the interests of the  country against both internal and external threats .It is not bound by humanity. They give their lives for the country  and are also expected to take lives.  Here the threat is internal and we are talking about a separatist movement. No country or it's army will tolerate this. Unlike israel and other countries Indian army is actually under lot of pressure from the govt and Indian media which regularly takes it to task. They exercise maximum restrain and give many warnings to the protesters to leave and even before shooting the pellets they give a warning before firing them.  This is a standard procedure.if all this does not deter the protestors and they continue with throwing stones at them  and killing police and destruct property  then the army is allowed to shoot and kill them.

The army did not ask the kids to be in the protest. If  adults  are willing to die for a cause it is understandable. but kids! What kind of parents are these that  actually send their kids to death. ?

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Legal/Illegal/UN/NoUN/occupied or not hardly matters because Kashmir does not naturally remains any part of india when u see rest of indian media, politicians and more importantly people (genuinely ask urself) are treating india/indians vs Kashmir/Kashmiris altogether differently;unable to ever speak a word even for actual innocent Kashmiri victims whereas putting Every possible excuse to justify ANY type of army actions in Kashmir...

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10 hours ago, Asim said:

Legal/Illegal/UN/NoUN/occupied or not hardly matters because Kashmir does not naturally remains any part of india when u see rest of indian media, politicians and more importantly people (genuinely ask urself) are treating india/indians vs Kashmir/Kashmiris altogether differently;unable to ever speak a word even for actual innocent Kashmiri victims whereas putting Every possible excuse to justify ANY type of army actions in Kashmir...

Who are these 'actual' Kashmiri victims? 

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10 hours ago, Asim said:

Legal/Illegal/UN/NoUN/occupied or not hardly matters because Kashmir does not naturally remains any part of india when u see rest of indian media, politicians and more importantly people (genuinely ask urself) are treating india/indians vs Kashmir/Kashmiris altogether differently;unable to ever speak a word even for actual innocent Kashmiri victims whereas putting Every possible excuse to justify ANY type of army actions in Kashmir...

1. So do you concede the point that India is not occupying Kashmir, India is sovereign of Kashmir and Pakistan is occupying Kashmir, since LEGALLY, the sovereignty of Kashmir passed from Maharaja Hari Singh to Republic of India ?

 

2. I have 'genuinely asked people' who are Kashmiri and the opinion is varied. Not a SINGLE Ladakhi or people from Jammu want independence or separation from India. The feeling of separation from India is predominantly, in my experience, found of Muslim Kashmiris from the valley (muslim Kashmiris from Ladakh want a separate state from Kashmir because they want to be with India and want nothing else to do with rest of Kashmir, FYI). Even then, Muslims of Kashmir who want separation from India,  want independent Kashmir first and consider an union with Pakistan a very distant second choice.

 

3. Perhaps the problem with your country and your culture, is that you put so little value on legalism, where rest of the civilized world governments care predominantly about legal positions. Even your strongest buddy China cares more about the rule of law above everything else. Yet, to you and your kind of people, law doesnt matter. That is convinient, because legally speaking, Pakistan has a big fat ZERO claim to Kashmir and India is the sovereign of Kashmir, even PoK and Northern Areas. India is the sovereign of those, Pakistan is the illegal occupier of those. 

Maybe your nation will progress one day if educated people like you start to value legalism above petty politics and personal desires.

But I doubt it, since being in Pakistan and India, the gulf between the two countries is very apparent. Pakistan is still stuck in stone age mentality. India is nearly at the beginning of its emancipated era.

 

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11 hours ago, Book_Worm said:

Yes it is the only option.  U can argue about pellet guns or bullets  or make a smart remark/dig about protection methods but not about what the army should do.  It is not about protecting themselves but  rather about the situation they face. In these kind of situation any army in any part of the world is allowed to shoot and kill the protesters either with pellet guns or normal bullets. To maintain law and order all over the world even the police has the right to use force against the protestors and here we have a situation where the people have actually killed the police officer(an incident that  you seem to either forget or ignore). The army does not think whether it's actions are morally and ethically right or wrong. The army simply  exists to protect the interests of the  country against both internal and external threats .It is not bound by humanity. They give their lives for the country  and are also expected to take lives.  Here the threat is internal and we are talking about a separatist movement. No country or it's army will tolerate this. Unlike israel and other countries Indian army is actually under lot of pressure from the govt and Indian media which regularly takes it to task. They exercise maximum restrain and give many warnings to the protesters to leave and even before shooting the pellets they give a warning before firing them.  This is a standard procedure.if all this does not deter the protestors and they continue with throwing stones at them  and killing police and destruct property  then the army is allowed to shoot and kill them.

The army did not ask the kids to be in the protest. If  adults  are willing to die for a cause it is understandable. but kids! What kind of parents are these that  actually send their kids to death. ?

 

You are completely incorrect for the bolded areas. 

 

1. We can argue about what an army should or should do all we like, because the army is not above the law. 

2. In 'these kinds of situations' most of the civilized world actually use bullet-proof vest, shield and do what the Romans did, i.e., lock shields and surround the protesters and then taser them. Tasering has less than 1 in a 1000 incident of permanent damage of any kind and is 99.99% certain to incapacitate you. Thats what 20,000 volts at very low amperage does- it gives you excruciating pain, uncontrollable muscle spasm but zero long term damage. Ie, situation contained and nobody got hurt.

3. army's job is to protect the nation but army is MOST DEFINITELY bound by ethics. Specifically, Republic of India is a signatory to geneva convention and Geneva convention covers what is ethical conduct by the army and what is not. This is why shotguns are banned in conventional army armaments (though almost everyone find an excuse to use it in actual war) because shotguns are considered inhumane in warfare.

That is just one example, many such examples exist where the army is bound by ethical standards, especially at peacetime.

4. We've had separatist movement in Quebec and it still exists, Quebecois did extended rally and protest to separate from Canada but at no point did the army have the mandate to open fire or maim Canadian citizens.

 

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2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

You are completely incorrect for the bolded areas. 

 

1. We can argue about what an army should or should do all we like, because the army is not above the law. 

Yes the army is not above law. The army itself has it's own committee to look into excess carried out by soldiers. If the protests were peaceful and army carried out attacks then yes it would come under scrutiny  and there would be widespread condemnations from all sectors . Here in this case the police machinery itself has come to a stand still and the protestors/mob has killed a police officer and are disrupting the peace in the valley. In this situation army is allowed to use force. Recently there was jatt agitation and army was called and shoot at sight orders were given and 3 people will killed by the army.

2. In 'these kinds of situations' most of the civilized world actually use bullet-proof vest, shield and do what the Romans did, i.e., lock shields and surround the protesters and then taser them. Tasering has less than 1 in a 1000 incident of permanent damage of any kind and is 99.99% certain to incapacitate you. Thats what 20,000 volts at very low amperage does- it gives you excruciating pain, uncontrollable muscle spasm but zero long term damage. Ie, situation contained and nobody got hurt.

Indian soldiers also wear vests and have shield. If u think they are not wearing vests etc then i don't know what to think about you.! I said it before it is not about the protective gears but rather about the situation and how they deal with it. They can use taser or pellets or bullets that is upto to the army to decide which weapon to use and how much humane it needs to be. Romans can do what they want  in rome and indians will do what they want to india.

3. army's job is to protect the nation but army is MOST DEFINITELY bound by ethics. Specifically, Republic of India is a signatory to geneva convention and Geneva convention covers what is ethical conduct by the army and what is not. This is why shotguns are banned in conventional army armaments (though almost everyone find an excuse to use it in actual war) because shotguns are considered inhumane in warfare.

What i meant was once the army is given orders from higher ups then it does not stop to think who they kill and  they just carry out the orders. Soldiers do not question but just carry out orders is an oft repeated phrase.  

That is just one example, many such examples exist where the army is bound by ethical standards, especially at peacetime.

4. We've had separatist movement in Quebec and it still exists, Quebecois did extended rally and protest to separate from Canada but at no point did the army have the mandate to open fire or maim Canadian citizens.

I am really not aware of any separatist movement in canada currently. Last i heard there was a referendum and the french speaking people choose to stay as part of canada and there is no such movement anymore.

 

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