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Pujara's career is over?

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Where did I say you called him stupid. So all this 'BCCI giving huge power to Kohli' is just the fragment of your imagination :dontknow: 

Okay..I am happy with my imagination..You were mentioning in some other thread about people calling Kohli "stupid".Thats why I came up with it.

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3 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said:

Okay..I am happy with my imagination..You were mentioning in some other thread about people calling Kohli "stupid".Thats why I came up with it.

Yup no problem with living in your own dreams. Have a good day sir

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Rohit does not  bring an ODI or T20 approach to batting in tests as he struggles badly and plays slowly as a result. He has issues with both temperament as well as technique in test matches. 

 

The approach to test batting, by many top Australians in the last 20 years and  many top WI batsmen in their heydays, have been very different from the approach you described and they have looked to counter-attack at the first chance. The mindset to play long innings has been present among all good batters though.

 

We need to pick effective test batsmen rather than " classic test batsmen " and Pujara deserves a chance because he has been more effective than Rohit or Dhawan.

 

All teams which have won consistently in test matches have always played atleast 3 batsmen out of 6 who bat quickly whenever they get the chance. The reasons are  twofold a) Putting psychological pressure on  the bowlers b) Scoring runs reasonably quickly so that they have sufficient time to get the opposition out twice.

 

I would ideally want batsmen like  ABDV who can grind when needed and smash the opposition when needed and play according to the match situation.

Rohit Sharma Bats Like Pujara.Its wrong to say he is not a classical test player.He leaves as much balls and whatever scores he has got he had to grind and when he attacked he got out.he has issues outside offstump while defending but most have that problem.What is disappointing is he was not able to convert 50 to 100-200 like in odis .Now Pujara has issues with incoming balls but is proven player against spin which Rohit is not.I reckon he deserves more chances in the home season .

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The classical test match batting approach - grinding it out, leaving the balls, playing session by session, having determination, the mindset to set your self to play long inng, etc. 

 

All good test batsmen display these whether he is a Greenidge or a Boycott

 

I hv nothing against Rohit being picked for tests if he can display those qualities or can develop in time. My issue is when a test specialists, who displays the classical test batting approach, is not picked over a batsman who brings in more odi, t20 oriented mindset and approach to tests 

 

The general point that you made in your post can be applied to ODIS as well when discussing say classical ODI batting as you would find that guys such as Dravid, Amla, etc, who do well in ODIs (or T20s). But if the choice is b/w picking Gayle or Dravid, one would go with Gayle as he displays the classical limited overs batting 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually Rohit is a grinder look at his first class record .He has been a grinder at tets level and problem is it tool such toll as soon as he reached a milestone he mostly got out playing rash shots .

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15 minutes ago, CG said:

Actually Rohit is a grinder look at his first class record .He has been a grinder at tets level and problem is it tool such toll as soon as he reached a milestone he mostly got out playing rash shots .

Because of the nature of tests, most folks would have a strike rate in the 50s. Since they are playing relatively slowly, it would appears as if they are grinding it out .... Going by records, he has a 177 as well which could show to some that he can play a long inng too .... BUT we should speak in "relative" terms so when comparing him with say Pujara. Rohit appears to be a more limited overs type of player vs the classical Pujara

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, NameGoesHere said:

Strategically Kohli has gone into attack mode, and like any war machine the weapons you deploy for an offensive have to be significantly different from a defence oriented strategy.  Kohli wants the attack tanks, the mobile armoured divisions, the  ground infantry and the combat aircraft in close support.   He presently has no need for things like fixed machine gun positions,  trenches and defence in depth.

 

You can question his offensive Test strategy, even his selection of tailunt and 5 bowlers as offensive Test weapons, but not dropping Pujara within the framework of that strategy.  Winners are grinners and in leading India to a series win overseas, Kohli has earned the right to make his own strategy and team selection.  That's all there is to it.

Based on how you present it, Hitler would have earned the right to do what he pleases as well since he was winning and probably also grinning until Operation Barbarosa happened (in Operation Barbarosa, Hitler took on the big boy Russia) 

 

Talking about batting, dropping Pujara ( and Vijay) is definitely questionable as Ind was 120 odd for 5 in the 1st inning. It was the men trenches i.e. Ashwin and Saha that brought Ind into the game. In tbe 2nd inng, Rahane provided the backbone support. And #3 position has hopelessly failed in this test

 

5 bowlers strategy is good and so is the mindset to look to attack. However,  when playing 5 batsmen, the team has to be particular in whom it selects

 

In the name of offensive strategy, if correct players are dropped, it could risk putting question marks on an otherwise good strategy 

Edited by zen

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5 hours ago, NameGoesHere said:

Strategically Kohli has gone into attack mode, and like any war machine the weapons you deploy for an offensive have to be significantly different from a defence oriented strategy.  Kohli wants the attack tanks, the mobile armoured divisions, the  ground infantry and the combat aircraft in close support.   He presently has no need for things like fixed machine gun positions,  trenches and defence in depth.

 

You can question his offensive Test strategy, even his selection of tailunt and 5 bowlers as offensive Test weapons, but not dropping Pujara within the framework of that strategy.  Winners are grinners and in leading India to a series win overseas, Kohli has earned the right to make his own strategy and team selection.  That's all there is to it.

 

The really sad part for me is not that Pujara seems to be out, but that he himself has hardly done much this series to justify selection.  That he slowed down the game was the only 'Test' part he contributed to  'Test batting'.  He made neither a big score nor saved India from some precarious position, nor did he look like he was going to come out of his funk any time soon and do either.  

 

Tailunt scored a quick fire 50 in the 2nd innings of the last Test.  You could argue it was useless, against a WI attack, but he did it anyway. I don't see Pujara doing that in the present situation.

 

I was a huge fan of Pujara, thought we had our next Test batting great.  But now he needs to evolve or he will become the truly classic 'what could have been' story.  So while I do not think his career has ended, I do think he will be out for a while.

 

And I hope tailunt gets 10 day diarrhea every time he is selected for a 5 day game, the feckless git.

Just because he didn't score big in 2 tests he played this series, you forgot what he did against SA and SL. This isn't how cricket is played and a team is built. Imagine if Dravid had been dropped after an abysmal Australian tour in 1999.

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48 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Just because he didn't score big in 2 tests he played this series, you forgot what he did against SA and SL. This isn't how cricket is played and a team is built. Imagine if Dravid had been dropped after an abysmal Australian tour in 1999.

Dravid only failed in Aus, Failing on 1 tour is ok virat, vijay have also failed. 

Pujara has failed in NZ, ENG, AUS......and thats alot. Which leaves the question mark over his overseas entact

2 test is also some chance and he wast set both times. Again lets stop putting dravid n him in same category. 

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3 hours ago, CG said:

Actually Rohit is a grinder look at his first class record .He has been a grinder at tets level and problem is it tool such toll as soon as he reached a milestone he mostly got out playing rash shots .

Look at level of bowlers in 1st class. How's he a grinder when he doesnt even have the control to leave balls outside off . 

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2 hours ago, zen said:

Based on how you present it, Hitler would have earned the right to do what he pleases as well since he was winning and probably also grinning until Operation Barbarosa happened (in Operation Barbarosa, Hitler took on the big boy Russia) 

 

Talking about batting, dropping Pujara ( and Vijay) is definitely questionable as Ind was 120 odd for 5 in the 1st inning. It was the men trenches i.e. Ashwin and Saha that brought Ind into the game. In tbe 2nd inng, Rahane provided the backbone support. And #3 position has hopelessly failed in this test

 

5 bowlers strategy is good and so is the mindset to look to attack. However,  when playing 5 batsmen, the team has to be particular in whom it selects

 

In the name of offensive strategy, if correct players are dropped, it could risk putting question marks on an otherwise good strategy 

Agree 5 batsman strategy is attacking till the time those 5 batsman are scoring consistently . Or else ur bowlers dont have anything to defend. 

Idea of Sehwag among those 5 works for coz that guy was consistent in test and most importantly he scored in all conditions and gud attacks. Rohit cant do either, he doesnt fall in sehwag or gilly catergory as those guys avg almost 50 which showed their consistency. Rohit perfomance have been like a tail ender. 

 

Biggest worry for me is the mssg that his selection and murali vijay benched gives - That consistent perfomance doesnt matter, after a time players can fall into insecure category. If a player who has performed like vijay is being dropped for a guy who has 0 perfomance like rohit imagine what signal it would give to other players. Thats not a good sign acc to me. 

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Look at level of bowlers in 1st class. How's he a grinder when he doesnt even have the control to leave balls outside off . 

He leaves well outside offstump on some green pitches in odis.Problem is when he goes for front foot defence and his stride is not big enough initially.

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19 minutes ago, CG said:

He leaves well outside offstump on some green pitches in odis.Problem is when he goes for front foot defence and his stride is not big enough initially.

Green pitches in Odi when did u see such pitches. 

Thats something of thing that doesnt exist in odi

The only pitches with some movement in last few yrs in odi were in Sa n Nz where he failed . 

 

Leaving few balls and slashing 1 which causes ur dismissal is of no point . His problem is he plays away from body which causes him problem both against ball coming in or going out.

 

But every batsman has a issue u have to find way to score runs, he hasnt found a way .

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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Green pitches in Odi when did u see such pitches. 

Thats something of thing that doesnt exist in odi

The only pitches with some movement in last few yrs in odi were in Sa n Nz where he failed . 

 

Leaving few balls and slashing 1 which causes ur dismissal is of no point . His problem is he plays away from body which causes him problem both against ball coming in or going out.

 

But every batsman has a issue u have to find way to score runs, he hasnt found a way .

May be you missed some on last wi tour .You do not average near 60 in fc if you do not have defence.His dismissals mostly have been due to poor shot selection rather than a set pattern.

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10 minutes ago, CG said:

May be you missed some on last wi tour .You do not average near 60 in fc if you do not have defence.His dismissals mostly have been due to poor shot selection rather than a set pattern.

He didnt score any big on the Wi tour all starts resulting not converted and again teams like Wi n SL will never test u like top teams.

Its not only shot selection many times he has failed to pick the movement of the ball completely and lot of times read the wrong line. He plays far away from the body something u can get away in Odi due to slips not being standing for long. But in test it is there for long.

All this errors can be discussed in number the point is he is a failure in test cricket. Last 15 test avg of 22 is pathetic. 

Lets not even compare our Fc cricket which has highest wkt takers like Vinay kumar, Krishna das .........

Doesnt matter if he avg 60 or 70 in int cricket his test record has been abysmal to say the least. 

 

About his defense when u play away from the body and u cant reach the ball ur body looses balances. Look at his head position in all dismissals and the basic of batting n bowling is head position.

Cpb0zW_XYAAlY9Q.jpg

 

This is not a good defense, its an ugly position

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I am really a little baffled at how much outrage dropping of Pujara has caused here than that of Vijay. To me, Vijay's performances in Tests over the last couple of years warrant that he must be picked for every match. He has performed in different conditions and looks more solid than even Pujara. I think the outrage with dropping Pujara has mkre to do with his replacement, Rohit who is seen as a proven failure in Test cricket. 

 

Now, lets be fair. Outside of Asia, Pujara has done precious little to warrant selection. His record outside Asia is not really setting the World on fire. The clamour for Pujara has more to do with the fact that changing the batting lineup to accommodate Rohit is not just causing other successful players like Kohli to fail, but also not getting any returns in the form of any contributions from Rohit. Personally, I feel Pujara should be picked ahead of Rohit simply because accommodating Rohit is causing further damage to the rest of the batting lineup since he is not a direct fit for the spot occupied by Pujara. And if we are playing at home, Pujara's home record should make him an automatic pick. However, Pujara also needs to pull up his socks and start contributing outside Asia as well whenever he is presented with a chance. He cannot just have a long international Test career by being a bully at home and a mouse abroad. I don't think this is the end of his career. He should get chances, but he also needs to understand that he needs to prove himself outside Asia. 

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He didnt score any big on the Wi tour all starts resulting not converted and again teams like Wi n SL will never test u like top teams.

Its not only shot selection many times he has failed to pick the movement of the ball completely and lot of times read the wrong line. He plays far away from the body something u can get away in Odi due to slips not being standing for long. But in test it is there for long.

All this errors can be discussed in number the point is he is a failure in test cricket. Last 15 test avg of 22 is pathetic. 

Lets not even compare our Fc cricket which has highest wkt takers like Vinay kumar, Krishna das .........

Doesnt matter if he avg 60 or 70 in int cricket his test record has been abysmal to say the least. 

 

About his defense when u play away from the body and u cant reach the ball ur body looses balances. Look at his head position in all dismissals and the basic of batting n bowling is head position.

Cpb0zW_XYAAlY9Q.jpg

 

This is not a good defense, its an ugly position

I was talking about some difficult odi pitches last wi tour where batting was tough particularly final where he left pretty well and when u tour abroad under lights in ODIs it's also difficult.Outside offstump everybody has problems be it Sachin or dravid.U have to take fc records as they are indicator .I have never seen anybody better there fc averages in history of circket bar few.Regarding defence I feel his front foot does not go far enough so he reaches out initially.Once he settles his footwork is improved .Overall I think his technique is all right it's more mental with him as it's what I do when u get in ia what matters not throwing away 40-50s

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1 minute ago, CG said:

I was talking about some difficult odi pitches last wi tour where batting was tough particularly final where he left pretty well and when u tour abroad under lights in ODIs it's also difficult.Outside offstump everybody has problems be it Sachin or dravid.U have to take fc records as they are indicator .I have never seen anybody better there fc averages in history of circket bar few.Regarding defence I feel his front foot does not go far enough so he reaches out initially.Once he settles his footwork is improved .Overall I think his technique is all right it's more mental with him as it's what I do when u get in ia what matters not throwing away 40-50s

Yes his technique is ok its not bad it is the front foot but there have been many issues when he hasnt picked the line of the ball n the movement . All of this added together is risky combination. 

As far Fc - jadeja has 3 -300 and his batting is a joke 

Yuvraj singh was one who played some brilliant knocks in ODI in tough condition also his 3-100s in test were also gr8 but again over all record

 

Test cricket is a diff beast, it test everything of urs. One thing he has to put in a lot of hard work and plan his game . I dont see either from him. In case of Vijay, rahane, kohli they all have changed stance n use of crease acc to crease but ull never notice that with rohit. Their is something called preparation again which is missing from his game. 

 

Problem with his game is not only front foot but many many things that are going against him and it reflects in his record. 

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Before being dropped in the last test vs. WI, starting from January 2014, Pujara has played 17 out of the 20  tests  played in this time. He was dropped for only 3 tests in succession in between.

 

In this time, this is how he has fared

 

Career averages
  Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
unfiltered 2010-2016 34 58 5 2482 206* 46.83 5149 48.20 7 7 2 300 5 Profile
filtered 2014-2016 17 30 1 892 145* 30.75 2104 42.39 1 3 2 105 3

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/32540.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jan+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

 

I ,personally,   think that he still deserves a chance at no.3 because of his ability to play a lot of deliveries at the beginning of the innings and blunt the new ball,  play spin  well and his replacement is not good enough.

 

It must also be said that Pujara needs to play a couple of big innings in terms of runs and score runs more consistently. If he does that then it won't be possible to drop him.  Just 4 innings of 50+ out of 30, in the last two and a half years, is not you would ideally want from your no.3 batsman.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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52 minutes ago, Texan said:

I am really a little baffled at how much outrage dropping of Pujara has caused here than that of Vijay. To me, Vijay's performances in Tests over the last couple of years warrant that he must be picked for every match. He has performed in different conditions and looks more solid than even Pujara. I think the outrage with dropping Pujara has mkre to do with his replacement, Rohit who is seen as a proven failure in Test cricket. 

 

Now, lets be fair. Outside of Asia, Pujara has done precious little to warrant selection. His record outside Asia is not really setting the World on fire. The clamour for Pujara has more to do with the fact that changing the batting lineup to accommodate Rohit is not just causing other successful players like Kohli to fail, but also not getting any returns in the form of any contributions from Rohit. Personally, I feel Pujara should be picked ahead of Rohit simply because accommodating Rohit is causing further damage to the rest of the batting lineup since he is not a direct fit for the spot occupied by Pujara. And if we are playing at home, Pujara's home record should make him an automatic pick. However, Pujara also needs to pull up his socks and start contributing outside Asia as well whenever he is presented with a chance. He cannot just have a long international Test career by being a bully at home and a mouse abroad. I don't think this is the end of his career. He should get chances, but he also needs to understand that he needs to prove himself outside Asia. 

Absolutely.  Dropping Vijay was the problem.  He should've replaced Pujara with Vijay, sent Rahul at #3, and all ij vell.  

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10 minutes ago, Moth2Flame said:

Absolutely.  Dropping Vijay was the problem.  He should've replaced Pujara with Vijay, sent Rahul at #3, and all ij vell.  

Dropping Vijay has outraged 99% of fans here. 

 

It is the inclusion of Rohit and Kohli moving up to  no.3 , although he is not comfortable there, that has also outraged a huge % of fans.  Even if Kohli wanted to drop Pujara....why was he not replaced by Vijay !!

Edited by express bowling

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Let me put things into context....had pujara been out for a duck in the 2nd test....let us say we would have been 100 runs short thanks to his innings and the impact his dismissal would have had....which means we still would have had the extra time on the 4th day to pick atleast a 2-3 wickets more....getting 6 wickets is not even the same context as picking the last 3 which means we would have won that game comfortably even if we were a 100 runs short in the 1st innings.

 

now by the same context look at the 3rd test....rohit's Quickfire knock did have some impact in the way we could force a declaration and give ourselves a shot at winning the tests.

 

now yes stats are important too which Rohit seems to fall behind by a lot and Pujara has the numbers even though he might be not capable of playing a quick fire knock or an impact innings too often( I know the inning a in Srilanka will get mentioned but how often can he repeat that?)

 

now the ideal candidate should have both which is a no brainer but how many such players are available ?

 

so right now Kohli and Kumble's motive is to

force results and get as many victories under the belt...so these theories of Kohli protecting his bff etc are plain bs....No way Kohli can override Kumble here....which means playing Rohit was a well thought out desicion.

 

Impact innings doesn't mean a quick fire knock...what Vijay has done often blunting out the new ball can be considered as such too and there is a scope and role for Pujara on some pitches but if the objective here is to accumulate as many wins as possible against wi....then the option would be to put the game out of their reach and give our relatively weaker link which is bowling that additional time to take 20 wickets.

 

Rohit may not have the numbers but he certainly has the reputation so I don't see any wrong in utilizing him over Pujara who currently seems to have only 1 gear.

 

Pujara's career is not over, in the context of this series right decision to play Rohit over him but Pujara is very much required and his role will be needed soon too on the minefields we get at home these days.

 

stop looking at statsguru and think with some cricketing acumen.

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13 minutes ago, maniac said:

Let me put things into context....had pujara been out for a duck in the 2nd test....let us say we would have been 100 runs short thanks to his innings and the impact his dismissal would have had....which means we still would have had the extra time on the 4th day to pick atleast a 2-3 wickets more....getting 6 wickets is not even the same context as picking the last 3 which means we would have won that game comfortably even if we were a 100 runs short in the 1st innings.

^lol .... how about a WI bowler picking up a hattrick - Pujara, Kolhi and Rahane. Ind being 87/4 on day 1 

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9 hours ago, Texan said:

I am really a little baffled at how much outrage dropping of Pujara has caused here than that of Vijay. To me, Vijay's performances in Tests over the last couple of years warrant that he must be picked for every match. He has performed in different conditions and looks more solid than even Pujara. I think the outrage with dropping Pujara has mkre to do with his replacement, Rohit who is seen as a proven failure in Test cricket. 

 

Now, lets be fair. Outside of Asia, Pujara has done precious little to warrant selection. His record outside Asia is not really setting the World on fire. The clamour for Pujara has more to do with the fact that changing the batting lineup to accommodate Rohit is not just causing other successful players like Kohli to fail, but also not getting any returns in the form of any contributions from Rohit. Personally, I feel Pujara should be picked ahead of Rohit simply because accommodating Rohit is causing further damage to the rest of the batting lineup since he is not a direct fit for the spot occupied by Pujara. And if we are playing at home, Pujara's home record should make him an automatic pick. However, Pujara also needs to pull up his socks and start contributing outside Asia as well whenever he is presented with a chance. He cannot just have a long international Test career by being a bully at home and a mouse abroad. I don't think this is the end of his career. He should get chances, but he also needs to understand that he needs to prove himself outside Asia. 

yes, he has not made big scores overseas but it is not always about runs. When openers go early which usually happens with Indian team, it is #3 batsman's job to stop the fall and he has done it several times, playing out the new ball. He did the same in first two tests here. He could not score big but the did provide likes of Kohli and Rahane the platform. Look what happened to when he batted at 3. We do need our top 3 batsman to be solid. It is not like Vijay sores big runs, even he does not score big runs that often. He probably has the lowest average among Vijay, Kohli, Rahane, but he does provide that solidity top of the order like Pujara. Pujara has struggled to score big runs but he has still played more balls than anyone else in this team.

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7 hours ago, maniac said:

Let me put things into context....had pujara been out for a duck in the 2nd test....let us say we would have been 100 runs short thanks to his innings and the impact his dismissal would have had....which means we still would have had the extra time on the 4th day to pick atleast a 2-3 wickets more....getting 6 wickets is not even the same context as picking the last 3 which means we would have won that game comfortably even if we were a 100 runs short in the 1st innings.

 

now by the same context look at the 3rd test....rohit's Quickfire knock did have some impact in the way we could force a declaration and give ourselves a shot at winning the tests.

 

now yes stats are important too which Rohit seems to fall behind by a lot and Pujara has the numbers even though he might be not capable of playing a quick fire knock or an impact innings too often( I know the inning a in Srilanka will get mentioned but how often can he repeat that?)

 

now the ideal candidate should have both which is a no brainer but how many such players are available ?

 

so right now Kohli and Kumble's motive is to

force results and get as many victories under the belt...so these theories of Kohli protecting his bff etc are plain bs....No way Kohli can override Kumble here....which means playing Rohit was a well thought out desicion.

 

Impact innings doesn't mean a quick fire knock...what Vijay has done often blunting out the new ball can be considered as such too and there is a scope and role for Pujara on some pitches but if the objective here is to accumulate as many wins as possible against wi....then the option would be to put the game out of their reach and give our relatively weaker link which is bowling that additional time to take 20 wickets.

 

Rohit may not have the numbers but he certainly has the reputation so I don't see any wrong in utilizing him over Pujara who currently seems to have only 1 gear.

 

Pujara's career is not over, in the context of this series right decision to play Rohit over him but Pujara is very much required and his role will be needed soon too on the minefields we get at home these days.

 

stop looking at statsguru and think with some cricketing acumen.

hwo could we have won that game comfortably? WI had taken a lead already and we would never know how many more they would have scored.

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1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

yes, he has not made big scores overseas but it is not always about runs. When openers go early which usually happens with Indian team, it is #3 batsman's job to stop the fall and he has done it several times, playing out the new ball. He did the same in first two tests here. He could not score big but the did provide likes of Kohli and Rahane the platform. Look what happened to when he batted at 3. We do need our top 3 batsman to be solid. It is not like Vijay sores big runs, even he does not score big runs that often. He probably has the lowest average among Vijay, Kohli, Rahane, but he does provide that solidity top of the order like Pujara. Pujara has struggled to score big runs but he has still played more balls than anyone else in this team.

Vijay over the last 2-3 years has been fairly consistent. Since we all love looking at stats, here are the averages for all Indian batsmen since the start of 2014. Only Rahane, Kohli and Vijay average over 40. All others have been inconsistent. Pujara averages a low 30, even below Dhoni.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;spanmin2=01+Jan+2014;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

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1 hour ago, Texan said:

Vijay over the last 2-3 years has been fairly consistent. Since we all love looking at stats, here are the averages for all Indian batsmen since the start of 2014. Only Rahane, Kohli and Vijay average over 40. All others have been inconsistent. Pujara averages a low 30, even below Dhoni.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;spanmin2=01+Jan+2014;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

what about last 7 tests since Pujara's come back? He has not done anything wrong in these test then why has he been dropped. You cannot take long term stats all the time because Pujara was dropped in Aus and did not play first to tests in SL too and then made hsi caome back is averaging 45 since then. Vijay is averaging 33 in that period. Kohli also less than Pujara, so, should Kohli and Vijay be dropped? 

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On 8/14/2016 at 5:49 PM, zen said:

 

I don't think you understood my point and are lost in 'genrealizations'. 

 

ow you have come up with the general term - "Effective". To know who can be effective, one should be able to show the traits required to be successful in tests. When you see someone like Rahane bat, you know he is suited to test matches. When you see a Raina, you know he may not be as successful in tests as others

 

 

If the choice is b/w picking Dravid or Yuvraj. I would pick Dravid because he is a proper test batsmen displaying the classic test match batting. I would not pick Yuvraj, who is a good batsmen too btw, just because he can play quickly. In limited overs, I would do the opposite

 

Now do test teams need players like Yuvraj. Some sides may need them depending upon its composition. Do limited overs team need players like Dravid. Yes, again some teams would need them depending upon the composition. Can these players be effective in the respective formats, again the answer is yes depending upon how effective is defined for a team. Do people know what has happened in test cricket in the past 20 years. The answer is again yes .... But does all these change the fact that a batsmen showing classic test batting (say a test specialist) be dropped vs someone who probably does not (relatively speaking) but can play at a relatively higher SR - No

 

 

 

You have missed the first point of my first post replying to you on this issue.  This is what I said .

 

22 hours ago, express bowling said:

 I agree completely about the need to pick Pujara over Rohit.

I am not condoning the inclusion of a bad  test batsman like Rohit replacing a decent one.   If somehow Pujara is not available for selection in a series,  I would want a new batsman in his place ....because  Rohit lacks the temperament to bat in test matches.

 

I  was replying to this part of your post 

 

20 hours ago, zen said:

Sad to hear this. Really enjoyed classical test batting of Che. Of late, I don't recall watching a batsman having the patience to leave 6 balls in a row 

 

Appears as if some folks want to make tests, ODIs and t20s similar 

 

Do whatever you want in Odis and T20s. Leave tests for the classic test match fans :((

My point is, Pujara has been a very average test batsman in the last two and a half years. Staring from 2014, he is averaging 30 in test matches. In his whole career, he averages just 29 in tests  played outside Asia.  Leaving deliveries, looking classic and all that is ok but unless he scores runs  more consistently and heavily,  he will just  be an average test batsman. 

 

Which is why  I raised the question of effectiveness. Whatever your batting style, I want those batsmen in my test team who score runs consistently and in most places in the world. 

 

Many great or good test batsmen have used ODI style batting in test matches very effectively. That includes many batters from the champion Australian and WI sides.  We have seen excellent test batters like Sehwag, Gilchrist and Warner.  ODI influence has been there in test matches for quite some time and no one is going to leave test matches completely for the classic test match fans. Influence of LOIs on test matches will increase with every passing year. 

 

Yuvraj, Raina, Rohit etc. do not deserve a place in test teams because they lack test temperament and could not / cannot score either consistently or heavily in tests.   You should not compare a Yuvraj, Raina, Rohit  with Dravid in a test match but Sehwag with Dravid  or Kohli with Pujara.

 

In a nutshell, if you want to enjoy the batsman-ship of batsmen like Pujara in tests, they need to score runs more consistently and heavily all over the world.  Otherwise they will be replaced because there are a lot of commercial considerations that drive cricket  these days.

 

I know you won't rett-ify my points because you are now  zen-zational            :p:

Edited by express bowling

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My point is, Pujara has been a very average test batsman in the last two and a half years. Staring from 2014, he is averaging 30 in test matches. In his whole career, he averages just 29 in tests  played outside Asia.  Leaving deliveries, looking classic and all that is ok but unless he scores runs  more consistently and heavily,  he will just  be an average test batsman. 

 

Which is why  I raised the question of effectiveness. Whatever your batting style, I want those batsmen in my test team who score runs consistently and in most places in the world. 

 

Many great or good test batsmen have used ODI style batting in test matches very effectively. That includes many batters from the champion Australian and WI sides.  We have seen excellent test batters like Sehwag, Gilchrist and Warner.  ODI influence has been there in test matches for quite some time and no one is going to leave test matches completely for the classic test match fans. Influence of LOIs on test matches will increase with every passing year. 

 

Yuvraj, Raina, Rohit etc. do not deserve a place in test teams because they lack test temperament and could not / cannot score either consistently or heavily in tests.   You should not compare a Yuvraj, Raina, Rohit  with Dravid in a test match but Sehwag with Dravid  or Kohli with Pujara.

 

In a nutshell, if you want to enjoy the batsman-ship of batsmen like Pujara in tests, they need to score runs more consistently and heavily all over the world.  Otherwise they will be replaced because there are a lot of commercial considerations that drives cricket  these days.

 

I know you won't rett-ify my points because you are now  zen-zational            :p:

I do not agree you can compare Raina ,Yuvraj with Rohit.Raina and Yuvi had too many technical issue a which meant they were going to struggle in tests.Rohit does not have such issues it's only matter of time.Regarding temperament Rohit Bats as a test match player

He gets in to shell too much which causes rash shot instead of rotating the strike.It was a problem in ODIs which he overcame .

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Picture this

 

Scenario 1- Team is at 90/4...player A hits his zone of extreme concentration......fights and toils hard....team gets to a respectable total of 225 all-out-great

 

Scenario 2-Team is at 250/5 on the 4th day reducing a deficit of 150 and is in that position of a 100 run lead with the game hanging in balance.....Player B hits his zone....BOOM.....we are 400 in no time with a lead of 250... and the option of a declaration and time  to bowl out the opposition comes into picture.

 

The Crowd view scenario 1- Test cricket is about temperament,hail the effort of Player 1 but let us refresh our browsers to check how far along we are or read the morning newspaper or see the scroll bar in the news channels.

 

The Crowd view scenario 2-Exhilarating stroke play,counterattacking cricket....Box office like what Sehwag and Gilchrist did to test cricket.....can't miss action.

 

Probability of Scenario 1 and Scenario 2 occurring where the player is in his zone-50-50 first instance,40-60 2nd instance but......

 

How Captain/Coach view it-  Scenario 1 is negative mindset that has affected Indian cricket for a while....Scenario 2 is a big gamble but the payoff is going to be huge.

 

In a perfect world-Play Horses for courses or get a player who has both gears but doesn't work that way does it?

 

So you be the judge.

 

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10 hours ago, rkt.india said:

hwo could we have won that game comfortably? WI had taken a lead already and we would never know how many more they would have scored.

WI first innings 196 allout...India at the fall of first wicket was 86/1....Had Pujara got out for a duck let us say Kohli who also played a sedate innings might have been out cheaply too but even if we are liberal deducting a 150 runs...India would be 160 odd runs ahead on Day 4...The pitch on Day 4 before the rain came in was unplayable.....WI were 60 odd for 4  when rain came in...the way pitch was behaving we would have got atleast 15 more overs and that would mean 3-4 wickets for 40 odd runs.

 

So WI would have been 50 behing with 2 wickets in hand...totally different scenario....Even if the tail added 150 more...that would mean knocking off 100 runs on a flat pitch

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5 minutes ago, maniac said:

Picture this

 

Scenario 1- Team is at 90/4...player A hits his zone of extreme concentration......fights and toils hard....team gets to a respectable total of 225 all-out-great

 

Scenario 2-Team is at 250/5 on the 4th day reducing a deficit of 150 and is in that position of a 100 run lead with the game hanging in balance.....Player B hits his zone....BOOM.....we are 400 in no time with a lead of 250... and the option of a declaration and time  to bowl out the opposition comes into picture.

 

The Crowd view scenario 1- Test cricket is about temperament,hail the effort of Player 1 but let us refresh our browsers to check how far along we are or read the morning newspaper or see the scroll bar in the news channels.

 

The Crowd view scenario 2-Exhilarating stroke play,counterattacking cricket....Box office like what Sehwag and Gilchrist did to test cricket.....can't miss action.

 

Probability of Scenario 1 and Scenario 2 occurring where the player is in his zone-50-50 first instance,40-60 2nd instance but......

 

How Captain/Coach view it-  Scenario 1 is negative mindset that has affected Indian cricket for a while....Scenario 2 is a big gamble but the payoff is going to be huge.

 

In a perfect world-Play Horses for courses or get a player who has both gears but doesn't work that way does it?

 

So you be the judge.

 

dude i have always liked your posts good fun, but you have researched Rohits test strike-rate right ?

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

I  was replying to this part of your post 

 

My point is, Pujara has been a very average test batsman in the last two and a half years. Staring from 2014, he is averaging 30 in test matches. In his whole career, he averages just 29 in tests  played outside Asia.  Leaving deliveries, looking classic and all that is ok but unless he scores runs  more consistently and heavily,  he will just  be an average test batsman. 

 

Which is why  I raised the question of effectiveness. Whatever your batting style, I want those batsmen in my test team who score runs consistently and in most places in the world. 

 

Many great or good test batsmen have used ODI style batting in test matches very effectively. That includes many batters from the champion Australian and WI sides.  We have seen excellent test batters like Sehwag, Gilchrist and Warner.  ODI influence has been there in test matches for quite some time and no one is going to leave test matches completely for the classic test match fans. Influence of LOIs on test matches will increase with every passing year. 

 

Yuvraj, Raina, Rohit etc. do not deserve a place in test teams because they lack test temperament and could not / cannot score either consistently or heavily in tests.   You should not compare a Yuvraj, Raina, Rohit  with Dravid in a test match but Sehwag with Dravid  or Kohli with Pujara.

 

In a nutshell, if you want to enjoy the batsman-ship of batsmen like Pujara in tests, they need to score runs more consistently and heavily all over the world.  Otherwise they will be replaced because there are a lot of commercial considerations that drives cricket  these days.

 

I know you won't rett-ify my points because you are now  zen-zational            :p:

 

I don't agree with your stats analysis as

  • In 2015 Pujara had the 2nd best (if I am not wrong) avg for Ind, while in 2016 he has played a lot of balls in the 2 tests so far. Vijay is actually averaging less since 2015 iirc 
  • Arguments such as stats outside Asia are pointless if outside Asia teams are encountered with similar conditions. At times, conditions can be tough for batting in Asia 

Effectiveness is a general point, which should not be made.  The points that most of the posters make usually already assume such generalizations. Also effectiveness is relative. And it cannot be judged based on stats alone. For e.g. in a partnership, one of the batsmen could play a passive role. Would you consider Dravid as ineffective in a Sehwag-Dravid partnership? 

 

I agree with your general point that batsmen have to score runs consistently. Just like I agree that all cars should be driven safely. Since the test series is going on in WI, below are a few memorable results which those arguing based on stats alone could miss:

  • Link - That Lara's 45 is worth a lot more than Ten's 90 odd  
  • Link - Irrespective of the conditions, a spell like that from Ambrose could turn the equations on its head 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I don't agree with your stats analysis as

  • In 2015 Pujara had the 2nd best (if I am not wrong) avg for Ind, while in 2016 he has played a lot of balls in the 2 tests so far. Vijay is actually averaging less since 2015 iirc 
  • Arguments such as stats outside Asia are pointless if outside Asia teams are encountered with similar conditions. At times, conditions can be tough for batting in Asia 

Effectiveness is a general point, which should not be made.  The points that most of the posters make usually already assume such generalizations. Also effectiveness is relative. And it cannot be judged based on stats alone. For e.g. in a partnership, one of the batsmen could play a passive role. Would you consider Dravid as ineffective in a Sehwag-Dravid partnership? 

 

I agree with your general point that batsmen have to score runs consistently. Just like I agree that all cars should be driven safely. Since the test series is going on in WI, below are a few memorable results which those arguing based on stats alone could miss:

  • Link - That Lara's 45 is worth a lot more than Ten's 90 odd  
  • Link - Irrespective of the conditions, a spell like that from Ambrose could turn the equations on its head 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dravid Pujara comparison stops just at the slow S/R....Dravid usually kicks on and makes it big....I mean a score of 30(100) is ok if you can convert that into a 150(300+) balls but a 30(100) and getting out sucks out the momentum and puts you on the back foot.

 

I liked Pujara and in the early part of his career he had a similar ability as Dravid to kick on from a slow start and make a big score...but now this one paced innings that result in a mediocre score doesn't help,especially against a team like WI where you have a chance to make it count by totally putting them out of the contest.

Edited by maniac

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3 minutes ago, maniac said:

Dravid Pujara comparison stops just at the slow S/R....Dravid usually kicks on and makes it big....I mean a score of 30(100) is ok if you can convert that into a 150(300+) balls but a 30(100) and getting out sucks out the momentum and puts you on the back foot.

 

I liked Pujara and in the early part of his career he had a similar ability as Dravid to kick on from a slow start and make a big score...but now this one paced innings that result in a mediocre score doesn't help,especially against a team like WI where you have a chance to make it count by totally putting them out of the contest.

However, you have to realize that Ind is fielding 5 batsmen so those in the 11 have to make the most of it by not throwing wkt away. Earlier, you may find that Dhoni could be the captain which meant that Ind was playing an extra batsman which allowed batsman to play "relatively" freely

 

If we have to rely on Ashwin and Saha to bail Ind out, then there is something wrong with Ind's batting strategy highlighted by the benching of Vijay and Pujara. I like Rohit though and don't mind him getting chances but not at the expense of test specialists such as these two 

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Making a case for No-hit in Test cricket? :facepalm:

Who changed N0hit to Rohit automatically when we post? Which Mod is responsible for things like this auto correct when we type, stifles the freedom of posters?

Edited by fineleg

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32 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I don't agree with your stats analysis as

  • In 2015 Pujara had the 2nd best (if I am not wrong) avg for Ind, while in 2016 he has played a lot of balls in the 2 tests so far. Vijay is actually averaging less since 2015 iirc 
  • Arguments such as stats outside Asia are pointless if outside Asia teams are encountered with similar conditions. At times, conditions can be tough for batting in Asia 

Effectiveness is a general point, which should not be made.  The points that most of the posters make usually already assume such generalizations. Also effectiveness is relative. And it cannot be judged based on stats alone. For e.g. in a partnership, one of the batsmen could play a passive role. Would you consider Dravid as ineffective in a Sehwag-Dravid partnership? 

 

I agree with your general point that batsmen have to score runs consistently. Just like I agree that all cars should be driven safely. Since the test series is going on in WI, below are a few memorable results which those arguing based on stats alone could miss:

  • Link - That Lara's 45 is worth a lot more than Ten's 90 odd  
  • Link - Irrespective of the conditions, a spell like that from Ambrose could turn the equations on its head 

 

 

 

Mr. Pujara needs to get some big scores under his belt ASAP.

 

With a team management not in favour of him and commercial considerations not supporting him,  all this micro-analysis won't work.

 

Very few ex-cricketers and commentators support him these days and praises are more cursory and polite. That is a worrying sign.

Edited by express bowling

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2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Mr. Pujara needs to get some big scores under his belt ASAP.

 

With a team management not in favour of him, all this micro-analysis wont work.

he scored 145 just previous overseas series, a match winning effort on a pitch that you barely find even outside SC, the guy who replaced him failed miserably on other better batting pitches, still again finds him in the team.  Rohit for Pujara is the worst decision ever.

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1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

he scored 145 just previous overseas series, a match winning effort on a pitch that you barely find even outside SC, the guy who replaced him failed miserably on other better batting pitches, still again finds him in the team.  Rohit for Pujara is the worst decision ever.

I don't want to see Rohit Sharma anywhere near a test team and I don't know how many more times I have to say this.

 

That 145 is Pujara's only big score in 31 months and he needs more.   

 

Pujara has very few backers among powerful people  and that won't help his cause.

 

 

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Cheteshwar Pujara's  biggest plus as a FC cricketer, and in the early years of his test career , was his hunger for runs. This guy was a run machine.  It was impossible to get him out.  He was awesome,....with a superb technique , amazing temperament. People waited for his every innings.  The way he batted against Steyn and Co. in South Africa was  :clap2:.  This was how he fared till end 2013

 

 

Career averages
  Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
unfiltered 2010-2016 34 58 5 2482 206* 46.83 5149 48.20 7 7 2 300 5 Profile
filtered 2010-2013 17 28 4 1590 206* 66.25 3045 52.21 6 4 0 195 2

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/32540.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=8;orderby=default;spanmax2=31+Dec+2013;spanmin2=01+jan+1988;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

 

 

 

I am a bit saddened to see quality posters trying  to defend 30s and 40s by him.  An average of 30 in his last 17  tests, and the role of blunting the new ball and getting out, does not become him.  Pujara needs to get out of this mediocrity mindset , remember what he was and  shut up all his critiques for good by going back to the champion mindset that he once had.

 

Best of luck to him !

 

Edited by express bowling

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