Debutant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 4 hours ago, Bigg Brother said: Kumble hasn't say in selection..Thats what I am saying.. How do you know Kumble does not have any say in the team selection ?? Just Curious Link to comment
philcric Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 39 minutes ago, NameGoesHere said: Tailunt scored a quick fire 50 in the 2nd innings of the last Test. 41 with 3 lives (I read somewhere). Definitely saw 2 dropped catches, not sure if there was a 3rd chance too. Anyway, most of us are on the same page. Pujara's place in the team is debatable, but Rohit definitely doesn't deserve a spot for many reasons. India plays only 5 batsmen. Rohit hasn't been a good test player so far. Rohit hasn't shown signs of being a good test player so far. Only #3 is somewhat available. And Rohit doesn't have the game to be even tried at that spot. The whole batting line-up has to be shuffled to accommodate Rohit. tweaker and Ankit_sharma03 2 Link to comment
Bigg Brother Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 How do you know Kumble does not have any say in the team selection ?? Just Curious Thats what I think and it is subjective thing..Neither me nor you can scrap it out through the brain of Kumble. This was after 1st test. http://m.indiatoday.in/story/cheteshwar-pujara-anil-kumble-west-indies-vs-india-2nd-test-kingston/1/726887.html And No one is calling Kohli stupid..We are nobody to call someone stupid. Link to comment
Brainfade Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 1 hour ago, NameGoesHere said: Strategically Kohli has gone into attack mode, and like any war machine the weapons you deploy for an offensive have to be significantly different from a defence oriented strategy. Kohli wants the attack tanks, the mobile armoured divisions, the ground infantry and the combat aircraft in close support. He presently has no need for things like fixed machine gun positions, trenches and defence in depth. You can question his offensive Test strategy, even his selection of tailunt and 5 bowlers as offensive Test weapons, but not dropping Pujara within the framework of that strategy. Winners are grinners and in leading India to a series win overseas, Kohli has earned the right to make his own strategy and team selection. That's all there is to it. The really sad part for me is not that Pujara seems to be out, but that he himself has hardly done much this series to justify selection. That he slowed down the game was the only 'Test' part he contributed to 'Test batting'. He made neither a big score nor saved India from some precarious position, nor did he look like he was going to come out of his funk any time soon and do either. Tailunt scored a quick fire 50 in the 2nd innings of the last Test. You could argue it was useless, against a WI attack, but he did it anyway. I don't see Pujara doing that in the present situation. I was a huge fan of Pujara, thought we had our next Test batting great. But now he needs to evolve or he will become the truly classic 'what could have been' story. So while I do not think his career has ended, I do think he will be out for a while. And I hope tailunt gets 10 day diarrhea every time he is selected for a 5 day game, the feckless git. Don't think anyone would be complaining if VK had simply switched out Vijay for Pujara, with Rahul coming in at 3. The lengths to which he went to accommodate RGS (himself coming at 3 so RGS could bat at 5) is what makes for some agony. Ankit_sharma03 1 Link to comment
zen Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, express bowling said: Rohit does not bring an ODI or T20 approach to batting in tests as he struggles badly and plays slowly as a result. He has issues with both temperament as well as technique in test matches. The approach to test batting, by many top Australians in the last 20 years and many top WI batsmen in their heydays, have been very different from the approach you described and they have looked to counter-attack at the first chance. The mindset to play long innings has been present among all good batters though. We need to pick effective test batsmen rather than " classic test batsmen " and Pujara deserves a chance because he has been more effective than Rohit or Dhawan. All teams which have won consistently in test matches have always played atleast 3 batsmen out of 6 who bat quickly whenever they get the chance. The reasons are twofold a) Putting psychological pressure on the bowlers b) Scoring runs reasonably quickly so that they have sufficient time to get the opposition out twice. I would ideally want batsmen like ABDV who can grind when needed and smash the opposition when needed and play according to the match situation. I don't think you understood my point and are lost in 'genrealizations'. Nobody is saying that classic test match batting cannot be about counter attacking. Has Pujara never counter attacked? Now you have come up with the general term - "Effective". To know who can be effective, one should be able to show the traits required to be successful in tests. When you see someone like Rahane bat, you know he is suited to test matches. When you see a Raina, you know he may not be as successful in tests as others No one has said ABDV should not be picked in tests. And even Dravid. Gavaskar, etc., can smash when required. In fact, Dravid declared the innings when Ten was on 194 because Ten was talking too long to reach to 200 If the choice is b/w picking Dravid or Yuvraj. I would pick Dravid because he is a proper test batsmen displaying the classic test match batting. I would not pick Yuvraj, who is a good batsmen too btw, just because he can play quickly. In limited overs, I would do the opposite Now do test teams need players like Yuvraj. Some sides may need them depending upon its composition. Do limited overs team need players like Dravid. Yes, again some teams would need them depending upon the composition. Can these players be effective in the respective formats, again the answer is yes depending upon how effective is defined for a team. Do people know what has happened in test cricket in the past 20 years. The answer is again yes .... But does all these change the fact that a batsmen showing classic test batting (say a test specialist) be dropped vs someone who probably does not (relatively speaking) but can play at a relatively higher SR - No Edited August 14, 2016 by zen tweaker 1 Link to comment
Debutant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Bigg Brother said: Thats what I think and it is subjective thing..Neither me nor you can scrap it out through the brain of Kumble. This was after 1st test. http://m.indiatoday.in/story/cheteshwar-pujara-anil-kumble-west-indies-vs-india-2nd-test-kingston/1/726887.html And No one is calling Kohli stupid..We are nobody to call someone stupid. Where did I say you called him stupid. So all this 'BCCI giving huge power to Kohli' is just the fragment of your imagination Link to comment
Bigg Brother Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Where did I say you called him stupid. So all this 'BCCI giving huge power to Kohli' is just the fragment of your imagination Okay..I am happy with my imagination..You were mentioning in some other thread about people calling Kohli "stupid".Thats why I came up with it. Link to comment
Debutant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said: Okay..I am happy with my imagination..You were mentioning in some other thread about people calling Kohli "stupid".Thats why I came up with it. Yup no problem with living in your own dreams. Have a good day sir Link to comment
Bigg Brother Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Yup no problem with living in your own dreams. Have a good day sir Thanks for kind words..By the way imagination and dream is different things.Better not quote me for this. Link to comment
CG Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Rohit does not bring an ODI or T20 approach to batting in tests as he struggles badly and plays slowly as a result. He has issues with both temperament as well as technique in test matches. The approach to test batting, by many top Australians in the last 20 years and many top WI batsmen in their heydays, have been very different from the approach you described and they have looked to counter-attack at the first chance. The mindset to play long innings has been present among all good batters though. We need to pick effective test batsmen rather than " classic test batsmen " and Pujara deserves a chance because he has been more effective than Rohit or Dhawan. All teams which have won consistently in test matches have always played atleast 3 batsmen out of 6 who bat quickly whenever they get the chance. The reasons are twofold a) Putting psychological pressure on the bowlers b) Scoring runs reasonably quickly so that they have sufficient time to get the opposition out twice. I would ideally want batsmen like ABDV who can grind when needed and smash the opposition when needed and play according to the match situation. Rohit Sharma Bats Like Pujara.Its wrong to say he is not a classical test player.He leaves as much balls and whatever scores he has got he had to grind and when he attacked he got out.he has issues outside offstump while defending but most have that problem.What is disappointing is he was not able to convert 50 to 100-200 like in odis .Now Pujara has issues with incoming balls but is proven player against spin which Rohit is not.I reckon he deserves more chances in the home season . Forever Indian 1 Link to comment
Debutant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said: Thanks for kind words..By the way imagination and dream is different things.Better not quote me for this. Ok Link to comment
CG Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 The classical test match batting approach - grinding it out, leaving the balls, playing session by session, having determination, the mindset to set your self to play long inng, etc. All good test batsmen display these whether he is a Greenidge or a Boycott I hv nothing against Rohit being picked for tests if he can display those qualities or can develop in time. My issue is when a test specialists, who displays the classical test batting approach, is not picked over a batsman who brings in more odi, t20 oriented mindset and approach to tests The general point that you made in your post can be applied to ODIS as well when discussing say classical ODI batting as you would find that guys such as Dravid, Amla, etc, who do well in ODIs (or T20s). But if the choice is b/w picking Gayle or Dravid, one would go with Gayle as he displays the classical limited overs batting Actually Rohit is a grinder look at his first class record .He has been a grinder at tets level and problem is it tool such toll as soon as he reached a milestone he mostly got out playing rash shots . Link to comment
zen Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, CG said: Actually Rohit is a grinder look at his first class record .He has been a grinder at tets level and problem is it tool such toll as soon as he reached a milestone he mostly got out playing rash shots . Because of the nature of tests, most folks would have a strike rate in the 50s. Since they are playing relatively slowly, it would appears as if they are grinding it out .... Going by records, he has a 177 as well which could show to some that he can play a long inng too .... BUT we should speak in "relative" terms so when comparing him with say Pujara. Rohit appears to be a more limited overs type of player vs the classical Pujara Link to comment
zen Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, NameGoesHere said: Strategically Kohli has gone into attack mode, and like any war machine the weapons you deploy for an offensive have to be significantly different from a defence oriented strategy. Kohli wants the attack tanks, the mobile armoured divisions, the ground infantry and the combat aircraft in close support. He presently has no need for things like fixed machine gun positions, trenches and defence in depth. You can question his offensive Test strategy, even his selection of tailunt and 5 bowlers as offensive Test weapons, but not dropping Pujara within the framework of that strategy. Winners are grinners and in leading India to a series win overseas, Kohli has earned the right to make his own strategy and team selection. That's all there is to it. Based on how you present it, Hitler would have earned the right to do what he pleases as well since he was winning and probably also grinning until Operation Barbarosa happened (in Operation Barbarosa, Hitler took on the big boy Russia) Talking about batting, dropping Pujara ( and Vijay) is definitely questionable as Ind was 120 odd for 5 in the 1st inning. It was the men trenches i.e. Ashwin and Saha that brought Ind into the game. In tbe 2nd inng, Rahane provided the backbone support. And #3 position has hopelessly failed in this test 5 bowlers strategy is good and so is the mindset to look to attack. However, when playing 5 batsmen, the team has to be particular in whom it selects In the name of offensive strategy, if correct players are dropped, it could risk putting question marks on an otherwise good strategy Edited August 14, 2016 by zen Ankit_sharma03 1 Link to comment
Shunya Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 This is so sad to see... the guys who have stood up during tough moments in the games are being dropped... Dropping Vijay is just criminal... hes the best player in the team since couple of years... Forever Indian and Ankit_sharma03 2 Link to comment
rkt.india Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 5 hours ago, NameGoesHere said: Strategically Kohli has gone into attack mode, and like any war machine the weapons you deploy for an offensive have to be significantly different from a defence oriented strategy. Kohli wants the attack tanks, the mobile armoured divisions, the ground infantry and the combat aircraft in close support. He presently has no need for things like fixed machine gun positions, trenches and defence in depth. You can question his offensive Test strategy, even his selection of tailunt and 5 bowlers as offensive Test weapons, but not dropping Pujara within the framework of that strategy. Winners are grinners and in leading India to a series win overseas, Kohli has earned the right to make his own strategy and team selection. That's all there is to it. The really sad part for me is not that Pujara seems to be out, but that he himself has hardly done much this series to justify selection. That he slowed down the game was the only 'Test' part he contributed to 'Test batting'. He made neither a big score nor saved India from some precarious position, nor did he look like he was going to come out of his funk any time soon and do either. Tailunt scored a quick fire 50 in the 2nd innings of the last Test. You could argue it was useless, against a WI attack, but he did it anyway. I don't see Pujara doing that in the present situation. I was a huge fan of Pujara, thought we had our next Test batting great. But now he needs to evolve or he will become the truly classic 'what could have been' story. So while I do not think his career has ended, I do think he will be out for a while. And I hope tailunt gets 10 day diarrhea every time he is selected for a 5 day game, the feckless git. Just because he didn't score big in 2 tests he played this series, you forgot what he did against SA and SL. This isn't how cricket is played and a team is built. Imagine if Dravid had been dropped after an abysmal Australian tour in 1999. Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 48 minutes ago, rkt.india said: Just because he didn't score big in 2 tests he played this series, you forgot what he did against SA and SL. This isn't how cricket is played and a team is built. Imagine if Dravid had been dropped after an abysmal Australian tour in 1999. Dravid only failed in Aus, Failing on 1 tour is ok virat, vijay have also failed. Pujara has failed in NZ, ENG, AUS......and thats alot. Which leaves the question mark over his overseas entact 2 test is also some chance and he wast set both times. Again lets stop putting dravid n him in same category. Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 3 hours ago, CG said: Actually Rohit is a grinder look at his first class record .He has been a grinder at tets level and problem is it tool such toll as soon as he reached a milestone he mostly got out playing rash shots . Look at level of bowlers in 1st class. How's he a grinder when he doesnt even have the control to leave balls outside off . Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 2 hours ago, zen said: Based on how you present it, Hitler would have earned the right to do what he pleases as well since he was winning and probably also grinning until Operation Barbarosa happened (in Operation Barbarosa, Hitler took on the big boy Russia) Talking about batting, dropping Pujara ( and Vijay) is definitely questionable as Ind was 120 odd for 5 in the 1st inning. It was the men trenches i.e. Ashwin and Saha that brought Ind into the game. In tbe 2nd inng, Rahane provided the backbone support. And #3 position has hopelessly failed in this test 5 bowlers strategy is good and so is the mindset to look to attack. However, when playing 5 batsmen, the team has to be particular in whom it selects In the name of offensive strategy, if correct players are dropped, it could risk putting question marks on an otherwise good strategy Agree 5 batsman strategy is attacking till the time those 5 batsman are scoring consistently . Or else ur bowlers dont have anything to defend. Idea of Sehwag among those 5 works for coz that guy was consistent in test and most importantly he scored in all conditions and gud attacks. Rohit cant do either, he doesnt fall in sehwag or gilly catergory as those guys avg almost 50 which showed their consistency. Rohit perfomance have been like a tail ender. Biggest worry for me is the mssg that his selection and murali vijay benched gives - That consistent perfomance doesnt matter, after a time players can fall into insecure category. If a player who has performed like vijay is being dropped for a guy who has 0 perfomance like rohit imagine what signal it would give to other players. Thats not a good sign acc to me. zen 1 Link to comment
CG Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Look at level of bowlers in 1st class. How's he a grinder when he doesnt even have the control to leave balls outside off . He leaves well outside offstump on some green pitches in odis.Problem is when he goes for front foot defence and his stride is not big enough initially. Link to comment
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