Pak VS India in terms of pace bowling

[express bowling]

57 minutes ago, renjith said:

Pakistan always had 3-4 international class fast bowlers. While india at best had 1 international class fast bowler and rest below average. Present case is also same with shami being the only intl class bowler.

Who are the international class fast bowlers in this  Pakistani team  ?  They had to depend on Yasir Shah to win them test matches even in England.

[rkt.india]

34 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Most probably they wouldn't have  but two of their qualities were self belief  and doing what was needed to take wickets at international level....... And it had a lot to do with Imran's guidance and mentoring  in their formative years.

lack of bottle caps, reverse swing is another thing.

[express bowling]

18 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

lack of bottle caps, reverse swing is another thing.

True.  After bottle-cap usage became virtually impossible, Pakistani bowling has deteriorated sharply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

5 hours ago, renjith said:

Pakistan always had 3-4 international class fast bowlers. 

They had 3 international class pacers, at the same time, only in the '90s.  Wasim, Waqar and Aquib ( only in ODIs ). In the late '90s it was Shoaib, Waqar and an aging Wasim.

 

All other times from the '70s till now , it was only 1 or 2 at the same time.

[tweaker]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

They had 3 international class pacers, at the same time, only in the '90s.  Wasim, Waqar and Aquib ( only in ODIs ). In the late '90s it was Shoaib, Waqar and an aging Wasim.

 

All other times from the '70s till now , it was only 1 or 2 at the same time.

In the 90s ' they had Md Akram,Rehman,Md Shahid, .In the late 90s' ,they had Md Zahid,Shabbir,Md Shami,

 

[express bowling]

Just now, tweaker said:

In the 90s ' they had Md Akram,Rehman,Md Shahid, .In the late 90s' ,they had Md Zahid,Shabbir,Md Shami,

 

These were pacers with  potential but did not become international class.

[Asim]

12 minutes ago, express bowling said:

These were pacers with  potential but did not become international class.

Bcz they were always a 2nd/3rd line choices on bench... They never became on front bcz of Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib and later on Azhar and Razzaq been all-rounders options...

M. Akram, Shahid Nazir, M. Zahid, Shabbir Ahmed, Fazl-e-Akbar, Kabir Khan were all genuinely good but spent whole of their careers as 'back-up' bowlers...

[express bowling]

20 minutes ago, Asim said:

Bcz they were always a 2nd/3rd line choices on bench... They never became on front bcz of Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib and later on Azhar and Razzaq been all-rounders options...

M. Akram, Shahid Nazir, M. Zahid, Shabbir Ahmed, Fazl-e-Akbar, Kabir Khan were all genuinely good but spent whole of their careers as 'back-up' bowlers...

Shabbir Ahmed was very good but he was a chucker.  So, he was not allowed to play more than 10 test matches.

 

Zahid was injured early in his career and lost a lot of pace. When he actually played a few matches, he did not look that good.

 

Md.Akram looked impressive but lacked wicket taking ability. He had only 17 wickets from 9 test matches with an average of 50.

 

Fazl-e-Akbar was a domestic whizkid but did not have the pace to succeed in international cricket.

 

Shahid nazir was a favourite of Akram but again lacked the focus to succeed in international cricket.

 

Shoaib came into the picture  at the end of  1997...till that time, there was a 3rd pacer's spot open in outside Asia matches but no one could establish themselves.  (  Imran played as a batsman in the early '90s  )

Edited August 26, 2016 by express bowling

[Adi_91]

Am surprised that our current bowlers are very close and in fact ahead of Pakistani bowlers. This is indeed a revelation. 

[Asim]

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Shabbir Ahmed was very good but he was a chucker.  So, he was not allowed to play more than 10 test matches.

 

Zahid was injured early in his career and lost a lot of pace. When he actually played a few matches, he did not look that good.

 

Md.Akram looked impressive but lacked wicket taking ability. He had only 17 wickets from 9 test matches with an average of 50.

 

Fazl-e-Akbar was a domestic whizkid but did not have the pace to succeed in international cricket.

 

Shahid nazir was a favourite of Akram but again lacked the focus to succeed in international cricket.

 

Shoaib came into the picture  at the end of  1997...till that time, there was a 3rd pacer's spot open in outside Asia matches but no one could establish themselves.  (  Imran played as a batsman in the early '90s  )

someone got injured, someone lacks wicket taking ability others lost pace, few lost focus... why all that was happening with them? Just bcz board never bothered to manage or invest over these guys and they were always going to be a bench-strength bcz of the fact till 96 we had wasim, waqar, Aaqib, then Wasim, Shoaib, Razzaq, then again Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib...
The phase you mentioned was post 96 WC till end of 97, I agree was a struggling phase but mainly for other reasons.... Nothing was settled during that phase anyways, Board, chairman, captaincy issues, match fixing scandals, court cases, investigations, team groupings, selections, players monopoly etc etc which damaged Pak cricket a lot during that phase...

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Asim said:

someone got injured, someone lacks wicket taking ability others lost pace, few lost focus... why all that was happening with them? Just bcz board never bothered to manage or invest over these guys and they were always going to be a bench-strength bcz of the fact till 96 we had wasim, waqar, Aaqib, then Wasim, Shoaib, Razzaq, then again Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib...
The phase you mentioned was post 96 WC till end of 97, I agree was a struggling phase but mainly for other reasons.... Nothing was settled during that phase anyways, Board, chairman, captaincy issues, match fixing scandals, court cases, investigations, team groupings, selections, players monopoly etc etc which damaged Pak cricket a lot during that phase...

 

Pakistan always had the raw pace bowling talent available. It was mainly Imran Khan who managed to utilize that talent effectively.

 

Even we are getting some good talent in the last 5 years but there is no-one to mould them into high quality finished products.

[Mosher]

Umesh has the best strike rate among pacers. Some ICFers can keep calling him brainless but that doesn't change the fact that he is our best wicket taker. BK has the best average among pacers. Shami is another wicket taker and our most skilled bowler. Ishant sucks at both. But guess who gets to play match after match after match.

[Vilander]

8 hours ago, renjith said:

Pakistan always had 3-4 international class fast bowlers. While india at best had 1 international class fast bowler and rest below average. Present case is also same with shami being the only intl class bowler.

who are the present 3-4 international class (world class you mean i think - because every national player can be called international class but wont necessarily make to world 11) bowlers from Pakistan 

[Asim]

5 minutes ago, Vilander said:

who are the present 3-4 international class (world class you mean i think - because every national player can be called international class but wont necessarily make to world 11) bowlers from Pakistan 

which team EVER had 3,4:all of them making to WORLD 11 of that time?

[express bowling]

20 minutes ago, Vilander said:

   international class fast bowlers.   (world class you mean i think - because every national player can be called international class but wont necessarily make to world 11) 

 

I think he means good pace bowlers in international cricket.....at the very least, that would have to mean pacers who are have managed to take 150+  test wickets at either a good SR or a  decent  average ( or are on the way to achieve that, if they are still playing ).

 

Only Amir would  qualify in the current Pakistan team....that is he has the potential.

Edited August 26, 2016 by express bowling

[Vilander]

15 minutes ago, Asim said:

which team EVER had 3,4:all of them making to WORLD 11 of that time?

its semantics but you could say world 11 or rest of world 11, the point is these International level guys could compete for a place across the 8 test teams any series (no offence to BD) but a genuinely world class guy has to be a bit better than that. And yeah you would have to go to say Windies, or Aus invincibles to see 3-4 world class bowlers in one team, SA had Steyn/Morkel/Philander? at one point too, Eng had Anderson Broad, before that Swann/Anderson, India had Zak(Kumble) at its peak, Pak had W's and Imran, then Waqar and Sohaib, then Sohaib(Saqlain) only, you get the drift ?

[Vilander]

26 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I think he means good pace bowlers in international cricket.....at the very least, that would have to mean pacers who are have managed to take 150+  test wickets at either a good SR or a  decent  average ( or are on the way to achieve that, if they are still playing ).

 

Only Amir would  qualify in the current Pakistan team....that is he has the potential.

From stats it looks like, Yes Amir if he improves his strike rate..and Wahab if he reduces his economy rate (same with Umesh). Shami is just about there in terms of both, 

 

off topic Ashwin is owning everyone.

[express bowling]

39 minutes ago, Vilander said:

From stats it looks like, Yes Amir if he improves his strike rate..and Wahab if he reduces his economy rate (same with Umesh). Shami is just about there in terms of both, 

 

off topic Ashwin is owning everyone.

 

The problem with Wahab is that he is already 31, his only weapons are pace and bounce ....and he has max 3 years to use them.  He has only played 18 tests so far and has  53 wickets.

[renjith]

@vilander, @express intl class does not mean they have to make world 11. neither do they have to be legends. Amir and wahab are intl class bowlers. Rahat is a high quality bowler. So is junaid. Not sure why he was not picked.

For me those guys are way ahead of the likes of Ishant Umesh varun aaron,  ...

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, renjith said:

@vilander, @express intl class does not mean they have to make world 11. neither do they have to be legends. Amir and wahab are intl class bowlers. Rahat is a high quality bowler. So is junaid. Not sure why he was not picked.

For me those guys are way ahead of the likes of Ishant Umesh varun aaron,  ...

I did not talk about World 11 bowlers.

 

That Wahab and Rahat are better than Umesh and Ishant  is just your opinion. Their respective performances don't suggest that.