Pak VS India in terms of pace bowling

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, renjith said:

Are you saying that stats is the only criteria for judging a player?

 

No,  I  am not saying that.   

 

I  am all for picking players based on  their type.  Like, if  I  see a pacer bowling with pace, bounce, accuracy and movement in domestic cricket, then  I would choose him over all others.

 

BUT

 

If, after playing a reasonable number of matches, that same bowler has a mediocre average and  a bad  SR in test cricket, then I would not be able to call him better than a quick but somewhat more inaccurate pacer who has a better SR  or average than him in  test matches.

 

This is because, getting wickets at international level is not based on the cricketing aspects alone...but on focus, will to succeed, fitness, temperament, hard work  etc.

 

A good example would be a comparison between  Anil Kumble  and  Sairaj Bahutue....    In the early '90s...Bahutule was a leg-spinner who could turn the ball , had a googly, loop etc.  Kumble was a leg-spinner who could not turn the ball at all and was apparently ordinary...but look at what happened at the end of their careers.

 

We cannot disregard actual performances, even if they come from players who have some weaknesses. ....and cannot disregard actual lack of performances from players whose style of play looks good.  Steffi Graf could not hit a backhand drive ....something so very basic in tennis, even I can hit it well...and yet she won 22 Grand Slams.

 

 

[the don]

Stats hide more than they reveal.

 

Pakistani bowlers are much better .

They know how to cease the moments and take 20 wickets .

Wahab in tests can bowl match winning spells and is faster than anyone in India.

Amis is coming back after 6 years and is a worldclass bowler . Rated highly by all pundits .

Sohail khan keeps picking wickets and has two 5 wicket hauls in his last two tests.

Hasan ali is a very good young talent .

These guys outbowl opponents in the UAE.

 

Much better attack than india . India hardly take 20 wickets .

[gakgupta]

Stats hide more than they reveal.

 

Pakistani bowlers are much better .

They know how to cease the moments and take 20 wickets .

Wahab in tests can bowl match winning spells and is faster than anyone in India.

Amis is coming back after 6 years and is a worldclass bowler . Rated highly by all pundits .

Sohail khan keeps picking wickets and has two 5 wicket hauls in his last two tests.

Hasan ali is a very good young talent .

These guys outbowl opponents in the UAE.

 

Much better attack than india . India hardly take 20 wickets .

Wahab is totally inconsistent. In fact he was dropped from the team and only after that he did well...

Amir....I m a big fan but he didn't proved anything so far....

Sohail seems to be good ....not great....

I m not sure how come it is better than current Indian team

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, the don said:

Pakistani bowlers are much better .

They know how to cease the moments and take 20 wickets .

 Really !  Coming from a  Pakistan fan, I will have to agree    

Quote

Wahab in tests can bowl match winning spells and is faster than anyone in India.

 

Aaron is perhaps quicker than Wahab or as quick.

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by express bowling

[Vilander]

12 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

No.... I explained the reasons for good stats by Vinay Kumar in domestic cricket and bad stats for him in international cricket.

 

Vinay  Kumar does not have good stats in international cricket.

he just wants to win the argument with a skewed logic, you are wasting your time debating with him actually.

[the don]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 Really !  Coming from a  Pakistan fan, I will have to agree    

 

Aaron is perhaps quicker than Wahab or as quick.

 

NO have seen umesh and wahab play together and wahab has always been quicker .

Seen aaron vs southafrica and wahab vs england . 

Wahab is quicker on average and top speed .

 

I think it will be clearer by the time pakistan finishes its overseas tours as i expect them to pick up 20 wickets alot more often than india . Have already done so twice .

Wait and see.

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, the don said:

NO have seen umesh and wahab play together and wahab has always been quicker .

Seen aaron vs southafrica and wahab vs england . 

Wahab is quicker on average and top speed .

 

I think it will be clearer by the time pakistan finishes its overseas tours as i expect them to pick up 20 wickets alot more often than india . Have already done so twice .

Wait and see.

Wahab  is marginally quicker than Umesh on an average ...but  he is not quicker than Aaron.

 

All 3 pacers have the ability to bowl similar speeds if they go flat out for pace.

 

India have won 7 test matches in the last 3 series we have  played  featuring 9 completed tests.  4 of those wins were away from home.  So, we have taken 20 wickets 7 times in test matches in the recent past.

Edited August 27, 2016 by express bowling

[Adi_91]

12 minutes ago, the don said:

NO have seen umesh and wahab play together and wahab has always been quicker .

Seen aaron vs southafrica and wahab vs england . 

Wahab is quicker on average and top speed .

 

I think it will be clearer by the time pakistan finishes its overseas tours as i expect them to pick up 20 wickets alot more often than india . Have already done so twice .

Wait and see.

How on earth did they play together?

[express bowling]

19 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

How on earth did they play together?

Outside Earth     

[the don]

32 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

How on earth did they play together?

Lol i meant in opposing teams obviously.

[the don]

40 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Wahab  is marginally quicker than Umesh on an average ...but  he is not quicker than Aaron.

 

All 3 pacers have the ability to bowl similar speeds if they go flat out for pace.

 

India have won 7 test matches in the last 3 series we have  played  featuring 9 completed tests.  4 of those wins were away from home.  So, we have taken 20 wickets 7 times in test matches in the recent past.

He is quicker based on recent evidence .india managed to 1 out of 13 tests against strong sides like eng, nz , aus . Struggling to pick up 20 wickets all the time.

Pakistan will do better . 

[the don]

Also people are overrating shami in test cricket .

 

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, the don said:

.india managed to 1 out of 13 tests against strong sides like eng, nz , aus . Struggling to pick up 20 wickets all the time.

Pakistan will do better . 

 

That was an inexperienced test side with an out-of-form captain.

 

Our team is more experienced now with an in-form captain.

 

We will do better in our next tour too.

[Adi_91]

19 minutes ago, the don said:

Also people are overrating shami in test cricket .

 

Better than the current overrated bowlers of Pakistan who rely on pitches to pick wickets unlike the likes of Akram and company.

[the don]

6 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

Better than the current overrated bowlers of Pakistan who rely on pitches to pick wickets unlike the likes of Akram and company.

Current pakistani bowlers may be overrated by pakistani standards but indias best fast bowler zaheer averaged well above 30 and similarly shami averages over 34 even though stats are not that important but yeah he is overrated over here but neutrals dont rate him.

[Adi_91]

15 minutes ago, the don said:

Current pakistani bowlers may be overrated by pakistani standards but indias best fast bowler zaheer averaged well above 30 and similarly shami averages over 34 even though stats are not that important but yeah he is overrated over here but neutrals dont rate him.

Well then your bowlers like Wahab Riaz average around that as well, but then he is a legend after the QF game against Aus despite going well over 6 rpo and Pakistan losing the game.

 

I would any day take some consistent performances over one time wonder bowlers like Wahab.

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, the don said:

 and similarly shami averages over 34 even though stats are not that important but yeah he is overrated over here but neutrals dont rate him.

 

Even in this last WI tour, the great Vivian Richards could not stop praising Shami.....compared him to Marshall and Lillee.  Talked about his ability to set up batsmen and the pace and bounce he got with accuracy.  (  He is a person who is quite selective with his praise and praised only 5 players from the Indian side ...Kohli, Shami, Rahul, Ashwin and Rahane )

 

Shami has a SR of 55, which is quite good and shows ability to take wickets.  He needs to improve his average and if he does not do so after 2 to 3 years then I will be disappointed.

Edited August 28, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, the don said:

Current pakistani bowlers may be overrated by pakistani standards but indias best fast bowler zaheer averaged well above 30 

Till  2012....India basically had produced one good pacer per decade. Kapil in the '80s, Srinath in the '90s and Zaheer in the '00s.  

 

Everyone knows that, for a bowling unit to succeed, you need  3  or 4 good bowlers creating pressure from both ends. When it does not happen, the pressure is released and the batsmen become set.

 

Our top pacers always faced this problem. Their stats would have been much better if there were other pacers to support them. That is why it is said that fast bowlers hunt in pairs.  

 

In the last  couple of years...we have started to produce multiple wicket-taking pacers ..... we are seeing good SR already and the averages will go down too.

[Adi_91]

And for all our padosis talking about averages, I remember James Anderson's average was well over 30 before he began his new career as a genuine wicket taker.  And it didn't happen in his initial years.

[Asim]

till 90s only less than 25 avgs were considered Good... I think that time's 24-26 is today's 28-32