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Hardik Pandya is a better bowler in Limited Overs than Ben Stokes


sandeep

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I would have liked Pandya in the Duleep Trophy as he would have been able to bowl against top batsman & bat against top bowlers in the domestic cricket.

This Ranji season for Baroda will define his future path .I would like him to at least score 600+ runs  & take 30+ wickets in Ranji Trophy this year.

I think his bowling is under rated & he has knack of taking wickets.With more experience & under able guidance of Rahul Dravid he will further develop his skills.

As he was dropped for the Windies T20 series,it will serve him a good wake up call in future & he will know he has to work hard to cement his place in the side & break in to loi as early as possible

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16 hours ago, express bowling said:

To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

 

Ben Stokes would not get in either the test or ODI teams either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler.  He has bad or mediocre averages in everything.

 

He can be used in the team only in combination with another such player like Moin Ali, who is also a bits and pieces utility player.

 

If Moin were a pure bowler, like say Ashley Giles, Stokes at 6 would make the batting weak, as he is not consistent enough for a top order batter.  And he would never make it to the team as a bowling all-rounder.

 

Woakes has the potential to be a proper test all-rounder as he can make it to the team as a pure bowler.

 

 

To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

Or, be pretty good at both, but not necessarily good enough to make it on the basis of one skill. Like Keith Miller was. I don't think there are many examples of those type of allrounder. I don't think you'd need another all rounder to make Stokes presence work, he can bat at 6 if the keeper is a good bat. In other words there might be better batsmen or better bowlers but Stokes value as an allrounder means he is invaluable. If he was Indian we'd love him in the test team for sure.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sooda said:

To me, a good all-rounder is someone who would get into the team either as a pure batsman or as a pure bowler and the other discipline is  additional.  Like Sobers, Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Pollock, Kallis, Ashwin  etc.

Or, be pretty good at both, but not necessarily good enough to make it on the basis of one skill. Like Keith Miller was. I don't think there are many examples of those type of allrounder. I don't think you'd need another all rounder to make Stokes presence work, he can bat at 6 if the keeper is a good bat. In other words there might be better batsmen or better bowlers but Stokes value as an allrounder means he is invaluable. If he was Indian we'd love him in the test team for sure.

 

 

 

I have never seen  Keith Miller play .....but he has taken 170 test wickets at an average of 22.97.....  That makes him not only a front-line bowler but a superb one at that.

 

I cannot remember that many cricketers,  who have played successfully for any length of time and could not be classified as either a specialist batsman or a specialist bowler or a specialist keeper.  Ability in the other discipline has been an additional quality.

 

Stokes is being played based on his potential just like we are playing Rohit Sharma.  With the bat, he averages 33 in 25 tests and  22 in 42 ODIs.  While bowling he has neither been a wicket-taker, nor has he been an economical bowler in any of the formats.  

 

Maybe he will realize his potential some day and become a 40+ average batsman in tests and a 35+ average batsman in ODIs....if so he will stay, otherwise he won't for a long time.

 

 

 

Edited by express bowling
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7 hours ago, tweaker said:

I would have liked Pandya in the Duleep Trophy as he would have been able to bowl against top batsman & bat against top bowlers in the domestic cricket.

This Ranji season for Baroda will define his future path .I would like him to at least score 600+ runs  & take 30+ wickets in Ranji Trophy this year.

I think his bowling is under rated & he has knack of taking wickets.With more experience & under able guidance of Rahul Dravid he will further develop his skills.

As he was dropped for the Windies T20 series,it will serve him a good wake up call in future & he will know he has to work hard to cement his place in the side & break in to loi as early as possible

Better that gujju lukdya is touring Australia instead of Duleep trophy.  It will be a better learning experience for him.  As you said, he will develop under Dravid's guidance.  

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Is this a joke???

 

well Pandya is good and great start to his career and hopefully beginning of a bright future.

 

but comparing him to guy who has multiple 5 wicket hauls across tests and Odis...a proven match winner and a potential future great really?

 

Stokes is a batsman who can bowl and boy can he bat and also bowl like that.

 

stop this ridiculous comparison.

 

hope Pandya overtakes stokes woakes etc in the coming days though

Edited by maniac
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5 hours ago, Texan said:

To be fair, Stokes bowling stats in LOIs are not that good. 

Ben Stokes surely has a lot of potential but none of his stats anywhere have indication of consistency so far.  Low batting averages in every format although he bats primarily at no.6, the position of a proper batsman and high bowling averages in every format although he bowls 50% of the time in swing-friendly England.  Now, we can see that change for the better in the next year or two, as Stokes matures as a player.  But, the English are already dubbing him as an ATG and that is not the case yet.  There is many a slip between the cup and the lip.

 

Batting and fielding averages
  Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
Tests 25 43 0 1429 258 33.23 2015 70.91 3 6 197 25 16 0
ODIs 47 41 4 1034 101 27.94 1095 94.42 1 6 87 28 21 0
T20Is 18 15 4 146 31 13.27 102 143.13 0 0 14 6 7 0
First-class 98 160 8 5207 258 34.25     11 25     55 0
List A 112 100 13 2838 164 32.62 2882 98.47 5 12 254 85 47 0
Twenty20 74 65 11 1226 77 22.70 910 134.72 0 5 96 56 30 0
Bowling averages
  Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
Tests 25 44 3866 2255 60 6/36 8/161 37.58 3.49 64.4 2 2 0
ODIs 47 37 1472 1473 39 5/61 5/61 37.76 6.00 37.7 1 1 0
T20Is 18 14 256 395 8 3/26 3/26 49.37 9.25 32.0 0 0 0
First-class 98 151 11261 6721 221 7/67 10/121 30.41 3.58 50.9 11 4 1
List A 112 77 2908 2721 96 5/61 5/61 28.34 5.61 30.2 3 1 0
Twenty20 74 46 746 1075 30 3/26 3/26 35.83 8.64 24.8 0 0 0

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/311158.html

 

 

 

Edited by express bowling
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Pandya has started his bowling journey in odi on a high note.He has good chance of maintaining that as he will be opening the bowling ,as first choice pacers are rested & Bumrah is mostly used as 1st change bowler.

 

He has bowled well & has not bowled wides & noballs,has not drifted toward legs & tried to bowl in the channel without experimenting too much.

 

He has a huge advantage as Dhoni has backed him .

 

With experience he will bowl well & when in good rhythm he can easily touch 150 kmph.

 

 

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On 8/31/2016 at 1:48 AM, express bowling said:

Mankad, Kapil, Shastri,  Prabhakar, Irfan Pathan, Ashwin

 

Name the  bits and pieces  cricketers who have lasted in cricket  ?

 

 

May I dare to add Ajit Agarkar in the list? I sincerely feel he isnt given as much due as he deserves. Had he been utilized better, he would have been a great asset

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On 8/31/2016 at 9:14 AM, express bowling said:

 

I have never seen  Keith Miller play .....but he has taken 170 test wickets at an average of 22.97.....  That makes him not only a front-line bowler but a superb one at that.

 

I cannot remember that many cricketers,  who have played successfully for any length of time and could not be classified as either a specialist batsman or a specialist bowler or a specialist keeper.  Ability in the other discipline has been an additional quality.

 

Stokes is being played based on his potential just like we are playing Rohit Sharma.  With the bat, he averages 33 in 25 tests and  22 in 42 ODIs.  While bowling he has neither been a wicket-taker, nor has he been an economical bowler in any of the formats.  

 

Maybe he will realize his potential some day and become a 40+ average batsman in tests and a 35+ average batsman in ODIs....if so he will stay, otherwise he won't for a long time.

 

 

 

Stokes has a long way to go before he can be rated as the best.....Yeah his average is not settign the world on fire....but what he has going for him in his favor is that he has proved that on his day he can be a match winner.....not a potential match winner but someone who has actually won games for his team with both bat and ball.

 

Don't have to go too far in history,he was the man of the series in the recently concluded ODI series against Bangladesh who are not a joke anymore especially in ODI's and especially at home conditions..

 

Pandya has hardly played at the international level and has not done anything...absolute zero apart from one or to utility performances in the side.

 

Not apples to apples.

 

I don't know why Stokes bowling and batting averages keep getting brought up.....he has immense potential and has showed glimpses of match winning ability already and what he can do when he plays according to it

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16 hours ago, maniac said:

Is this a joke???

 

well Pandya is good and great start to his career and hopefully beginning of a bright future.

 

but comparing him to guy who has multiple 5 wicket hauls across tests and Odis...a proven match winner and a potential future great really?

 

Stokes is a batsman who can bowl and boy can he bat and also bowl like that.

 

stop this ridiculous comparison.

 

hope Pandya overtakes stokes woakes etc in the coming days though

This from a guy that declared Ben Duckett a future ATG after his one ODI 50 against the bowling paaver-house that is Bangladesh (without Mustafiz, and without a hope).  

 

The only thing ridiculous is you anointing Duckett and Stokes as Future "ATG".  

 

Read my first post again and comprehend.  I said that Pandya is and can be a better limited overs bowler than Stokes.  Tests don't have limited overs last I checked.  So stop harping on Stokes' achievements in Tests.  2nd, Since you bring stats into the picture - Check and compare their T20 stats, a format where both have played a few games.  

 

In ODIs, Stokes averages 23 with the bat and 44 with the ball away from home.  I think Hardik Pandya will match or exceed this numbers easily.  Even in medium-pace friendly England home conditions, "stokesy" averages more than 33 with the ball, I'm willing to bet that Pandya, given a decent sample set - (i.e. 7+ ODIs in England) will match or do better than that with ball in hand.  

 

(@fineleg  - You should read this too, so that you can open your eyes and see the facts a bit. Rather than being blinded by ghar ki murgi daal barabar syndrome.  )

 

Pandya is skinny, and tries too hard to be cool, and is an Indian pace-bowling allrounder.  These things are affecting his perception.  He has the bowling and batting tools to be a very effective LOI cricketer, maybe even tests - but that depends on the continuation of his learning curve and his ability to stay injury free.   

 

 

Edited by sandeep
add response to finey's mention
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7 hours ago, tweaker said:

Pandya has started his bowling journey in odi on a high note.He has good chance of maintaining that as he will be opening the bowling ,as first choice pacers are rested & Bumrah is mostly used as 1st change bowler.

 

He has bowled well & has not bowled wides & noballs,has not drifted toward legs & tried to bowl in the channel without experimenting too much.

 

He has a huge advantage as Dhoni has backed him .

 

With experience he will bowl well & when in good rhythm he can easily touch 150 kmph.

 

 

Tweaker bhai, expected a bit more judiciousness from you.  150?  That's really pipe dreams, heck I don't think Hardik on a ganja-high would even expect himself to bowl at those speeds.  If you want to indulge in a bit of wishful thinking about his bowling, I would wish for Zaheer Khan to teach him his killer knuckle-ball - gujju lukdya needs to add some variety to his repertoire.

 

As long as he's 135+ consistently and in the right areas, with the ability to slip a quicker one - that's enough.  He will have his bad days with the ball.  On unhelpful pitches, given his lack of variety, he's gonna run into the Warner/De Kock/Kusal Perera/ etc and get smacked for big runs, but so will other bowlers.  The biggest thing he has going for himself is that you don't need him to bowl a full spell - if he can give 5-8 overs and play as a front-line batsman, then the team is that much stronger for it.  

 

It remains to be seen whether he can take his slugging abilities and actually play quality ODI innings against top teams, but I'm hoping he can. In my opinion, he's not going to have sustainable success as a bowler who can bat - but as a #6 bat who can bowl.  We have not seen enough from him with the bat yet, and he hasn't had opportunities.  But let's hope for the best on the batting front.  

 

 

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