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sandeep

Hardik Pandya is a better bowler in Limited Overs than Ben Stokes

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33 minutes ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

So, Ben Duckett  is in the same category as Kohli and Rahane, but Pandya the bowler is nowhere near Stokes in LOI Cricket.  OK.  And M00li Vijay is just a utility player?  Wow, A legit contender for the best test opener in the world is utility, while Rohit is God-like.  Go back to your Rohit Sharma shrine in the basement.  I'm done wasting my time with you on this topic.  GTFO my thread.  

 

 

Edited by sandeep

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1 hour ago, maniac said:

The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

Dairy companies have milked lesser from all their cows than what you have milked from one Rohit Sharma's innings !!

Edited by philcric

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1 hour ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

 

Gayle, Warner are more suitable for X-factor xamples than ben stokes.

Pandya not in X-factor, so whats the diff between him n binny

Jadeja run through an opp in favourable conditions and MOT in Icc champions trophy. His fielding only has changed may games. 

How is Vijay utiliy , In test matches batsman dont win games. 

Ben duckett already in Kohli rahane category

Rohit sharma - god:facepalm:, even jadeja, ashwin is god in favourable conditions. 

Raydu in the category of jadeja, moeen ali, vijay is sheer insult to those player who have performed for years on international level not domestic. :wall::wall::wall:

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What does Pommie Jersey or white skin have to do with anything Lol.

 

So while at it let us also say that Dinda is a better bowler than Jacques Kallis

 

Dina 9 T20I's bowling average 14.41 and S/R of 10.5

 

Kallis T20I bowling average of 28.00 and S/R of 23.00

 

Also Kallis has only 12 wickets in 25 games...Dina has 17 in 9:hatsoff:

 

Kallis has 1/2 a wicket per match where as Dinada has 2 wickets per match...so Dinda is 4 times the bowler Kallis ever was right?

I am not sure whether u have followed Stokes a lot or just going by his performance in Australia , but Stokes hasn't been that good since his Ashes debut .

Has been pretty underwhelming as a test bowler and much worse in limited overs cricket.Not sure what u basing this phenomenonal potential lol

What's helping Stokes is that England generally play plenty of all rounders (Ali Wokes Rashid ) which so far has helped Stokes poor bowling perfomances from being under scrutiny

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31 minutes ago, philcric said:

Dairy companies have milked lesser from all their cows than what you have milked from one Rohit Sharma's innings !!

FYI....They were 2 different innings....the 16 6's came up in a different 200.....Wow can you believe I just said that about an international cricketer....another 200 in another international odi game against another opponent on another pitch

19 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

I am not sure whether u have followed Stokes a lot or just going by his performance in Australia , but Stokes hasn't been that good since his Ashes debut .

Has been pretty underwhelming as a test bowler and much worse in limited overs cricket.Not sure what u basing this phenomenonal potential lol

What's helping Stokes is that England generally play plenty of all rounders (Ali Wokes Rashid ) which so far has helped Stokes poor bowling perfomances from being under scrutiny

Also has a 250 in SOuth Africa and a Man of the series in Bangladesh.

 

As you rightly said....I think he has phenomenal potential...never have I said he is a proven legend yet.

Edited by maniac

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40 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

Gayle, Warner are more suitable for X-factor xamples than ben stokes.

Pandya not in X-factor, so whats the diff between him n binny

Jadeja run through an opp in favourable conditions and MOT in Icc champions trophy. His fielding only has changed may games. 

How is Vijay utiliy , In test matches batsman dont win games. 

Ben duckett already in Kohli rahane category

Rohit sharma - god:facepalm:, even jadeja, ashwin is god in favourable conditions. 

Raydu in the category of jadeja, moeen ali, vijay is sheer insult to those player who have performed for years on international level not domestic. :wall::wall::wall:

Read what I said carefully....I said Duckett and Rahul have the ability to become like a Rahane or Kohli in the future as they have shown glimpses of IT factor in them.

 

Yes Gayle,Warner and even Maxwell have X Factor in them.

 

Rayudu has an average of 50...Yes he is not flashy and won't win games single handedly but it will be interesting to see how many games India has won when he performed well.....This is what a utility player does....will do his part where the match winners will finish off the job.

 

Vijay is not expected to score 500 runs all alone....he is expected to score a 50 or at best a 100 where the match winners can step in and put totals out of the opposition's reach....He will not score a quickfire 100 to set up games in 4th innings...he is very valuable because he will lay the foundation or do his part in most cases.

 

Hope this is clear.

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11 minutes ago, CG said:

Ben stokes bowling is nothing great.He will end up being another bits abd pieces Cricketer in England long quest for Another Botham.Woakes looks to have better potential than him.

A Bits and pieces player does not score 258 at 130 S/R in South Africa against Morkel,Rabada,Morris etc.

 

A Bits and pieces player does not score a 100 in Perth against Johnson,Harris and Siddle

 

A Bits and pieces player does not score a 100 in Newzealand against Boult,Southee and Henry

 

A Bits and pieces player does not get a 6 wicket haul that includes wickets of Rogers,Clarke,Smith,Haddin,

 

A Bits and pieces player does not get a 6 wicket haul that includes wickets of Rogers,Warner,Marsh

 

 

 

 

Edited by maniac

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Any way this OP is about a certain individual thinking that a certain bowler will be better in a certain format in comparison with a certain upcoming talented allrounder.......I think more power to the OP.

 

I can confidently say that Pandya is a better fielder than Stokes who himself is a world class athlete and as an Indian fan I hope instead of selective statistics which bother me I hope Pandya becomes better than Stokes in all 3 departments in all 3 formats :isalute:

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29 minutes ago, maniac said:

FYI....They were 2 different innings....the 16 6's came up in a different 200.....Wow can you believe I just said that about an international cricketer....another 200 in another international odi game against another opponent on another pitch

Also has a 250 in SOuth Africa and a Man of the series in Bangladesh.

 

As you rightly said....I think he has phenomenal potential...never have I said he is a proven legend yet.

to be frank, the two 200's are pretty awesome esp the one in Eden gardens, even if people question the flat pitch small grounds(M Chin blore) etc, its still pretty awesome. Only Sachin and Sehwag could do it, out side of Gayle (Against Zim) or Guptil ( Wellington rugby stadium) i doubt anyone internationally could have done it may be B Macullum and Warner. But he sucks as a test bat though.

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1 minute ago, Vilander said:

to be frank, the two 200's are pretty awesome esp the one in Eden gardens, even if people question the flat pitch small grounds(M Chin blore) etc, its still pretty awesome. Only Sachin and Sehwag could do it, out side of Gayle (Against Zim) or Guptil ( Wellington rugby stadium) i doubt anyone internationally could have done it may be B Macullum and Warner. But he sucks as a test bat though.

Fixed and reputation given :nice:

 

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Also has a 250 in SOuth Africa and a Man of the series in Bangladesh.

 

As you rightly said....I think he has phenomenal potential...never have I said he is a proven legend yet.

I am referring to bowling .

Not sure what the double hundred in South Africa has anything to with it .

As I earlier he hasn't shown anything since the Ashes debut in bowling to show he has phenomenal potential to be an all rounder .

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1 hour ago, fineleg said:

^ No plural. There are no bhakts for Rohit sharma, only one bhakt :)

Chu.. ki fauj  is always plural.    

 

Anyway, this thread was created back few months back, after Pandya was excluded from the Zim tour, and I wanted to point out the importance of grooming a prospect, especially a type of player that India doesn't really have too many options of.  

 

I don't give a rat's @ss that in the last 2 years, Ben Stokes has taken 6 wickets in 11 away ODIs with an economy of 6+ RPO.  The point was that Pandya deserved a fair run in our ODI scheme, which he is getting now and wasn't back then.  There were a bunch of posters who be-littled his bowling claiming he's a batsman who can bowl a bit and is not good enough.  Hence the thread.   

On his batting, Dhoni has treated him as a bowler first thus far, and he hasn't really had opportunities. The only time he came to the wicket with a few overs left was that disaster of a WC T20 game against the kiwis.  And he didn't do much, but it wasn't like he threw it away.  Was playing sensibly but got a marginal leg-before call against him.  Wasn't as if it was poor shot selection or was out of his depth.  So I'm still hopeful that he can be good enough with the bat to justify that #6 slot with his bowling as a bonus.  

 

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A Bits and pieces player does not score 258 at 130 S/R in South Africa against Morkel,Rabada,Morris etc.

 

A Bits and pieces player does not score a 100 in Perth against Johnson,Harris and Siddle

 

A Bits and pieces player does not score a 100 in Newzealand against Boult,Southee and Henry

 

A Bits and pieces player does not get a 6 wicket haul that includes wickets of Rogers,Clarke,Smith,Haddin,

 

A Bits and pieces player does not get a 6 wicket haul that includes wickets of Rogers,Warner,Marsh

 

 

 

 

If u play the amount of test cricket Eng does you are going to get odd performances.His double hundred was good but sa had themselves to blame.Sa are not the test side nor the pitches of the past.Overall he has been medicore in his test career.

I do not think he will be able to play as a genuine bowler or genuine batsman currently.

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10 hours ago, maniac said:

Stokes just won a man of the series award...T20 bowling stats really? what next dot balls per over or some other random stats like that?

Dude, did you even check the thread title? It talks of bowling in LOIs. Considering that ODIs and T20Is make up LOIs, T20I bowling stats actually make 50% of this space. Even in terms of ODI bowling records, Stokes is pretty ordinary. I think you are confusing his Test credentials with LOI ones.

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any video of his bowling spells, not just 3-4 balls but full spell. Didnt watch the match, so, want to see how did he bowl. 2 of 3 wickets were soft dismissals, so, cannot read too much into it. He bowled several half volleys though evident in the boundaries he conceded to Latham.

Edited by rkt.india

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38 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

any video of his bowling spells, not just 3-4 balls but full spell. Didnt watch the match, so, want to see how did he bowl. 2 of 3 wickets were soft dismissals, so, cannot read too much into it. He bowled several half volleys though evident in the boundaries he conceded to Latham.

I don't know of any existing videos.

 

He bowled lots of around-good length,   around off-stump deliveries which moved away a bit.  Most were missed and a couple edged  for runs.

 

Funnily, he got wickets with 2  average deliveries and  did not with some great ones.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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46 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

any video of his bowling spells, not just 3-4 balls but full spell. Didnt watch the match, so, want to see how did he bowl. 2 of 3 wickets were soft dismissals, so, cannot read too much into it. He bowled several half volleys though evident in the boundaries he conceded to Latham.

Not sure if there are any videos. The first wicket was a gem of a ball, the other two were half volleys and lucky to get wickets. In between though, after the first two overs, he bowled a very good line and length and at good pace and extracted bounce too. What was most impressive about him was his pace. Consistently in the high 130s/ low 140s.

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1 hour ago, fineleg said:

Looong way to go for Hardik Pandya. Decent initial start.

Please list a few cricketers who didn't have a "Looong way to go" after their 1st ODI !!

 

Decent Initial start? 7-0-31-3. Plenty of good balls. Good consistent pace, bounce and movement on and off the pitch. Please tell us what Pandya needed to do to have a "good/great" initial start?

 

 

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14 hours ago, Texan said:

Dude, did you even check the thread title? It talks of bowling in LOIs. Considering that ODIs and T20Is make up LOIs, T20I bowling stats actually make 50% of this space. Even in terms of ODI bowling records, Stokes is pretty ordinary. I think you are confusing his Test credentials with LOI ones.

Yes I did and that is why I am surprised that the comparison is being made against a batting allrounder who is winning man of the series for batting performances being brought into a comparison.

 

Also wondered how a guy who already has a 5 wicket haul and 4 wicket haul in ODI's is suddenly worse than a rookie bowler who just happened to take 3 wickets (commendable yes) in his first game...also especially when the other bowler has been focusing more on batting due to some injuries and has not been bowling to full capacity.

 

So many missing links here to the topic.

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16 hours ago, rkt.india said:

any video of his bowling spells, not just 3-4 balls but full spell. Didnt watch the match, so, want to see how did he bowl. 2 of 3 wickets were soft dismissals, so, cannot read too much into it. He bowled several half volleys though evident in the boundaries he conceded to Latham.

https://youtu.be/quN6R8BuqTU

here's the highlights

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Pandya could be something special.  Stokes potential ATG some say.  Well this guy could be as well

 

We need some vision.  This guy can bowl fast and can bat properly as well as clear ball in to stands.

 

He has attitude as well.

 

There will be ups and downs and plenty of screw ups in the journey.  But we need to play and back him.  In 1 or 2 years we will reap the dividends.

 

Thankfully Pandya and Kumble see this and seem to all out be ther to develop him.

 

Should be in all squads in all formats.  Only way to reach the potential.  Not to send him away and leave him to toil on FC circuit for a few years to gain numbers to pelase the stats gurus on this furm with their glasses and prince charles haircuts!!

 

Use the cricket eye.  This guy could be box office, will take some time but I believe can get there.

 

A guy who touches 90 mph and proper bat. Wow!

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What I like about Pandya is he is improving fast....From the Srilanka T20 series to now,his rise has been fast. People said batting was always his strong suit but has been more impressive with the ball in recent times. Infact even in his T20 days his bowling looked something that can be improved upon.

 

Need to get more chances with the bat.

 

England send Stokes in at 5 at times,won't be a bad idea to send Pandya up the order and see what he does.

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^ His rise hasn't been fast - only obvious to those with "cricketing acumen" :winky:

 

His bowling will get him past the selection hurdle, but his batting will decide how long he stays in the team.  Let's see how he does in this series, hopefully gets to bat as early as the 35th over or so, a couple of times.  That should show us what he can do, and what kind of batting toolkit he possesses apart from slugging a few boundaries here and there.  His batting had flamed out a bit last IPL.  I'm sure that's in the back of his mind as well.  

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30 minutes ago, Vilander said:

how fast was he during the warmup ?

 

No speed-guns but ,in Pandya's  2nd and 3rd spells, the  ball was flying through to Dhoni and he collected many deliveries on the up.

 

He hit the deck hard, bowled some vicious bouncers, hit Billings on the helmet with one and made the batsmen hop and jump with some rising balls.

Edited by express bowling

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So. :)

 

Some base bowling stats from today's game:

 

Hardik Pandya - 9 overs 2 wickets for 46 - comfortably the best seamer on display in the 1st innings.  Arguably over both innings.  Conceded 5 boundaries but took out Morgan and Buttler - the heart of the pommie middle order.

 

Ben Stokes:  10 overs 2 wickets for 73 - got Yuvraj off a lucky strangle on the legside, while VK threw his wicket on a tired shot.  Conceded 10 boundaries, and was nowhere near as effective as Pandya.

 

Hypothesis from the OP gains more evidence.  Is Hardik Pandya a better white ball bowler (ODIs and T20s) than Ben Stokes?    :bow:

 

Cricketing Acumen?  Player evaluation and judgement?  There are folks who consider Stokes a "legend" while bashing Hardik Pandya as a "limited" player.    

 

Blunt objective evaluation of their bowling with the white ball shows doodh ka doodh, and paani ka paani.  

Edited by sandeep

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2 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Honest opinion 

 

pandya is a better bowler then stokes. 

 

Stokes is better batsman at the moment . But pandya will close that gap 

 

 

Agree with you about the batting.  Stokes is better as of now.  But Pandya is still developing, we don't know what he will be as a finished product - may improve and surpass Stokes with the bat, may regress and go to $hyte.  

 

But Pandya clearly surpassing expectations and patronizing dismissals from "acumenites" with the ball in LOI cricket.  

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Yes he does need to wrk on his batting.  But his bowling improved leaps and bounds

 

Frankly even in this innings improved loads.  First half of innings was ugly, panicy.  Second half was composed and easy.

 

Hit a gorgous cover drive and laced rashid.  Looks weak of his legs and something to work on there, plus mental aspect .

 

But I feel this innigs will improve loads

 

Stokes was pretty poor for a while with bat.  But eng showed vison and backed him.  Looks like Kumble/Kohli and Dravid doing the same

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His bowling is coming along nicely, bowls a McGrath/Ambrose length at decent pace- hard to hit when he gets it right. I get the feeling he's trying too hard with his batting and hence his body tenses up and he cannot execute big shots; today's innings although not pretty, will hopefully boost his confidence as he saw the team home

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Getting there...but still stokes is a better total package at this point of time...stokes can play as a frontline batsman and his bowling is more or less equivalent to Pandya and even slightly better based on previous exploits.

 

but yes if pandya performs like this leave alone stokes he will be the best LOI allrounder in the world.

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His bowling is coming along nicely, bowls a McGrath/Ambrose length at decent pace- hard to hit when he gets it right. I get the feeling he's trying too hard with his batting and hence his body tenses up and he cannot execute big shots; today's innings although not pretty, will hopefully boost his confidence as he saw the team home

Pandya batted with a hangover from the game he failed to finish by throwing away his wicket against the kiwis. He premeditated a big shot and got caught on the boundary when all he needed to do was not throw it away and he wins the game for his team. Today, he was determined not to give it away going for a big shot, especially early on.

Still has a ways to go as a batsman. Big back lift, lot to learn on shot selection, but has definitely flashed raw ability with the bat. He's not out of his depth, and clearly has the ability to hit the long ball. Excellent candidate for#7 slot, especially if he can keep up his bowling.

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I'd like to say the positives i see in him till now..bowling wise he can be sharp.He's always over 135ks and can bowl 140+ when he wants.I've seen him bowl upto 145ks on occasions.Gets a good outswing as a stock ball,bowls in a good channel,has a mean bouncer and also developed change of pace.Needs to improve on his yorker though.

Batting wise he's explosive,can rotate the strike and clear the boundaries though can improve on his batting allover.

Fielding wise he's fantastic and very very athletic which helps him in his overall cricket.

He will progress with time,needs to be backed as he's a special talent a rare breed in Indian cricket.As of now I'd like

him to get stronger physically.That will serve him pretty well.

Edited by ShebbySB

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Surely will be in our test team in our next abroad trip. How ironic is it that we've found a player like him in Dhoni's last days as captain(NZ Series was when he came into focus) when he has spent all of his captaincy moaning about finding a player like this?

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19 hours ago, maniac said:

Getting there...but still stokes is a better total package at this point of time...stokes can play as a frontline batsman and his bowling is more or less equivalent to Pandya and even slightly better based on previous exploits.

 

but yes if pandya performs like this leave alone stokes he will be the best LOI allrounder in the world.

So from ridiculing Pandya as a utility player who won't win matches for his team, earlier in this thread, your "acumen" is starting to adjust with some "captain obvious" insights.  

 

Although still stubbornly clinging to the delusion that Stokes is a better LOI bowler than Pandya - what previous exploits is this based on?  In ODI cricket?   

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