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Hardik Pandya is a better bowler in Limited Overs than Ben Stokes


sandeep

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51 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This from a guy that declared Ben Duckett a future ATG after his one ODI 50 against the bowling paaver-house that is Bangladesh (without Mustafiz, and without a hope).  

 

The only thing ridiculous is you anointing Duckett and Stokes as Future "ATG".  

 

Read my first post again and comprehend.  I said that Pandya is and can be a better limited overs bowler than Stokes.  Tests don't have limited overs last I checked.  So stop harping on Stokes' achievements in Tests.  2nd, Since you bring stats into the picture - Check and compare their T20 stats, a format where both have played a few games.  

 

In ODIs, Stokes averages 23 with the bat and 44 with the ball away from home.  I think Hardik Pandya will match or exceed this numbers easily.  Even in medium-pace friendly England home conditions, "stokesy" averages more than 33 with the ball, I'm willing to bet that Pandya, given a decent sample set - (i.e. 7+ ODIs in England) will match or do better than that with ball in hand.  

 

(@fineleg  - You should read this too, so that you can open your eyes and see the facts a bit. Rather than being blinded by ghar ki murgi daal barabar syndrome.  )

 

Pandya is skinny, and tries too hard to be cool, and is an Indian pace-bowling allrounder.  These things are affecting his perception.  He has the bowling and batting tools to be a very effective LOI cricketer, maybe even tests - but that depends on the continuation of his learning curve and his ability to stay injury free.   

 

 

Stokes just won a man of the series award...T20 bowling stats really? what next dot balls per over or some other random stats like that?

 

Stokes is inconsistent but "Has won Matches for his side" be it with the bat or with the ball.

 

As far as Duckett goes a young rookie making his debut has 2 out of 3 50's in alien conditions with some audacious strokeplay....I just said he has immense potential......I did not say Ben Duckett can be a greater LOI batsman than say Ajinkya Rahane.

 

Pandya has had an impressive debut that's about it....stop comparing him with proven material.

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Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

Edited by maniac
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4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Stokes just won a man of the series award...T20 bowling stats really? what next dot balls per over or some other random stats like that?

 

Stokes is inconsistent but "Has won Matches for his side" be it with the bat or with the ball.

 

As far as Duckett goes a young rookie making his debut has 2 out of 3 50's in alien conditions with some audacious strokeplay....I just said he has immense potential......I did not say Ben Duckett can be a greater LOI batsman than say Ajinkya Rahane.

 

Pandya has had an impressive debut that's about it....stop comparing him with proven material.

This thread is about comparing them as LOI Bowlers.  Stop confusing yourself by bringing in tests, where Hardik hasn't had opportunities, or batting which we aren't talking about at the moment - and again, where Pandya hasn't had a chance to bat yet in ODIs.  

 

Btw, Stokes' bowling in the Bangladesh series - 3 matches 16 overs 2 wickets at 42 runs each.  Economy above 5.   He won the MoS for his batting, not his trundler cannon foddery bowling.  

 

Get it through your Rohit Sharma obsessed head - Ben Stokes is a proven ORDINARY bowler in LOI cricket - ODIs and T20s.  He bowls 5-odd overs and picks up an odd wicket here and there at around 40 RPW.  Hardik Pandya has outbowled him in much more batsman friendly conditions with the white-ball thus far, and is very likely to continue doing so.    

 

Banjo, just because he wears POMMIE jersey, doesn't automatically make him Flintoff or the next Botham.   

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6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This thread is about comparing them as LOI Bowlers.  Stop confusing yourself by bringing in tests, where Hardik hasn't had opportunities, or batting which we aren't talking about at the moment - and again, where Pandya hasn't had a chance to bat yet in ODIs.  

 

Btw, Stokes' bowling in the Bangladesh series - 3 matches 16 overs 2 wickets at 42 runs each.  Economy above 5.   He won the MoS for his batting, not his trundler cannon foddery bowling.  

 

Get it through your Rohit Sharma obsessed head - Ben Stokes is a proven ORDINARY bowler in LOI cricket - ODIs and T20s.  He bowls 5-odd overs and picks up an odd wicket here and there at around 40 RPW.  Hardik Pandya has outbowled him in much more batsman friendly conditions with the white-ball thus far, and is very likely to continue doing so.    

 

Banjo, just because he wears POMMIE jersey, doesn't automatically make him Flintoff or the next Botham.   

What does Pommie Jersey or white skin have to do with anything Lol.

 

So while at it let us also say that Dinda is a better bowler than Jacques Kallis

 

Dina 9 T20I's bowling average 14.41 and S/R of 10.5

 

Kallis T20I bowling average of 28.00 and S/R of 23.00

 

Also Kallis has only 12 wickets in 25 games...Dina has 17 in 9:hatsoff:

 

Kallis has 1/2 a wicket per match where as Dinada has 2 wickets per match...so Dinda is 4 times the bowler Kallis ever was right?

Edited by maniac
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17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

x factor , IT factor... how do you bring yourself to type such stuff dude.  Its like MTV reality tv etc.

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1 hour ago, maniac said:

Stokes has a long way to go before he can be rated as the best.....Yeah his average is not settign the world on fire....but what he has going for him in his favor is that he has proved that on his day he can be a match winner.....not a potential match winner but someone who has actually won games for his team with both bat and ball.

 

Don't have to go too far in history,he was the man of the series in the recently concluded ODI series against Bangladesh who are not a joke anymore especially in ODI's and especially at home conditions..

 

Pandya has hardly played at the international level and has not done anything...absolute zero apart from one or to utility performances in the side.

 

Not apples to apples.

 

I don't know why Stokes bowling and batting averages keep getting brought up.....he has immense potential and has showed glimpses of match winning ability already and what he can do when he plays according to it

 

Where have I compared Stokes with Pandya in this thread  ?  

 

I discussed both of them separately and discussed about allrounders in general.

 

I have always said that Stokes has potential ...where  have I denied that  ?   

 

But, the English  are  treating him as  an ATG  almost and therein lies the problem....which is why his averages come up.   There should be demarcation about players with potential  and those who have already started to realize that potential by consistent performances all over the  world..  Stokes is no Rahane yet...who is already averaging 51  in test matches   and has scored 100s  and 90s  all over the world in tests.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

So, Ben Duckett  is in the same category as Kohli and Rahane, but Pandya the bowler is nowhere near Stokes in LOI Cricket.  OK.  And M00li Vijay is just a utility player?  Wow, A legit contender for the best test opener in the world is utility, while Rohit is God-like.  Go back to your Rohit Sharma shrine in the basement.  I'm done wasting my time with you on this topic.  GTFO my thread.  

 

 

Edited by sandeep
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1 hour ago, maniac said:

The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

Dairy companies have milked lesser from all their cows than what you have milked from one Rohit Sharma's innings !!

Edited by philcric
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1 hour ago, maniac said:

Here is how I rate players

 

Players with X factor-The Rohit Sharmas of the world.....they can hit God Zone or in Video game terms Turbo Mode where they just become unstoppable....They will make what was deemed impossible look like a cakewalk like hitting 264 all alone or 16 6's in a match.....When they reach the god zone game is over in a session or in 30 minutes or less.

AB Devillers or even Ben Stokes falls into this category as well.

 

Players with IT Factor-Likes of Kohli or Rahane the test batsman....smoothest transition from domestics to internationals....they won't miss a beat..they show that they belong from the word go......consistency is what makes them matchwinners.....they will start and get the job done by the end of the match.

Ben Duckett recently has shown this quality....other similar players who I have noticed have the IT factor recently are KL Rahul

 

Players with Utility factor-There is a place for these players in the X1....likes of Vijay,Moeen Ali,Nathan Lyon,Ravindra Jadeja etc fall into this category.....These are players who will not win games on their own but their contribution is absolutely must for the match winners-Players with X and IT factor to do their thing.

Apples to Apples Moeen Ali or Jadeja may not be the best spinners in their respective countries but they are right about there and their batting in Ali's case or Fielding in Jadeja's case makes them rise above the ranks....similarly in a pace attack like Aussies where the fast bowlers are match winners you need a Lyon to do his thing and hold one end up when the pitch has assistance.

Pandya,Vijay and Rayudu are 2 examples of these kind of players...They will play efficiently around match winners but won't win you games singlehandedly.

 

Gayle, Warner are more suitable for X-factor xamples than ben stokes.

Pandya not in X-factor, so whats the diff between him n binny

Jadeja run through an opp in favourable conditions and MOT in Icc champions trophy. His fielding only has changed may games. 

How is Vijay utiliy , In test matches batsman dont win games. 

Ben duckett already in Kohli rahane category

Rohit sharma - god:facepalm:, even jadeja, ashwin is god in favourable conditions. 

Raydu in the category of jadeja, moeen ali, vijay is sheer insult to those player who have performed for years on international level not domestic. :wall::wall::wall:

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What does Pommie Jersey or white skin have to do with anything Lol.

 

So while at it let us also say that Dinda is a better bowler than Jacques Kallis

 

Dina 9 T20I's bowling average 14.41 and S/R of 10.5

 

Kallis T20I bowling average of 28.00 and S/R of 23.00

 

Also Kallis has only 12 wickets in 25 games...Dina has 17 in 9:hatsoff:

 

Kallis has 1/2 a wicket per match where as Dinada has 2 wickets per match...so Dinda is 4 times the bowler Kallis ever was right?

I am not sure whether u have followed Stokes a lot or just going by his performance in Australia , but Stokes hasn't been that good since his Ashes debut .

Has been pretty underwhelming as a test bowler and much worse in limited overs cricket.Not sure what u basing this phenomenonal potential lol

What's helping Stokes is that England generally play plenty of all rounders (Ali Wokes Rashid ) which so far has helped Stokes poor bowling perfomances from being under scrutiny

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31 minutes ago, philcric said:

Dairy companies have milked lesser from all their cows than what you have milked from one Rohit Sharma's innings !!

FYI....They were 2 different innings....the 16 6's came up in a different 200.....Wow can you believe I just said that about an international cricketer....another 200 in another international odi game against another opponent on another pitch

19 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

I am not sure whether u have followed Stokes a lot or just going by his performance in Australia , but Stokes hasn't been that good since his Ashes debut .

Has been pretty underwhelming as a test bowler and much worse in limited overs cricket.Not sure what u basing this phenomenonal potential lol

What's helping Stokes is that England generally play plenty of all rounders (Ali Wokes Rashid ) which so far has helped Stokes poor bowling perfomances from being under scrutiny

Also has a 250 in SOuth Africa and a Man of the series in Bangladesh.

 

As you rightly said....I think he has phenomenal potential...never have I said he is a proven legend yet.

Edited by maniac
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40 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

Gayle, Warner are more suitable for X-factor xamples than ben stokes.

Pandya not in X-factor, so whats the diff between him n binny

Jadeja run through an opp in favourable conditions and MOT in Icc champions trophy. His fielding only has changed may games. 

How is Vijay utiliy , In test matches batsman dont win games. 

Ben duckett already in Kohli rahane category

Rohit sharma - god:facepalm:, even jadeja, ashwin is god in favourable conditions. 

Raydu in the category of jadeja, moeen ali, vijay is sheer insult to those player who have performed for years on international level not domestic. :wall::wall::wall:

Read what I said carefully....I said Duckett and Rahul have the ability to become like a Rahane or Kohli in the future as they have shown glimpses of IT factor in them.

 

Yes Gayle,Warner and even Maxwell have X Factor in them.

 

Rayudu has an average of 50...Yes he is not flashy and won't win games single handedly but it will be interesting to see how many games India has won when he performed well.....This is what a utility player does....will do his part where the match winners will finish off the job.

 

Vijay is not expected to score 500 runs all alone....he is expected to score a 50 or at best a 100 where the match winners can step in and put totals out of the opposition's reach....He will not score a quickfire 100 to set up games in 4th innings...he is very valuable because he will lay the foundation or do his part in most cases.

 

Hope this is clear.

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11 minutes ago, CG said:

Ben stokes bowling is nothing great.He will end up being another bits abd pieces Cricketer in England long quest for Another Botham.Woakes looks to have better potential than him.

A Bits and pieces player does not score 258 at 130 S/R in South Africa against Morkel,Rabada,Morris etc.

 

A Bits and pieces player does not score a 100 in Perth against Johnson,Harris and Siddle

 

A Bits and pieces player does not score a 100 in Newzealand against Boult,Southee and Henry

 

A Bits and pieces player does not get a 6 wicket haul that includes wickets of Rogers,Clarke,Smith,Haddin,

 

A Bits and pieces player does not get a 6 wicket haul that includes wickets of Rogers,Warner,Marsh

 

 

 

 

Edited by maniac
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Any way this OP is about a certain individual thinking that a certain bowler will be better in a certain format in comparison with a certain upcoming talented allrounder.......I think more power to the OP.

 

I can confidently say that Pandya is a better fielder than Stokes who himself is a world class athlete and as an Indian fan I hope instead of selective statistics which bother me I hope Pandya becomes better than Stokes in all 3 departments in all 3 formats :isalute:

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29 minutes ago, maniac said:

FYI....They were 2 different innings....the 16 6's came up in a different 200.....Wow can you believe I just said that about an international cricketer....another 200 in another international odi game against another opponent on another pitch

Also has a 250 in SOuth Africa and a Man of the series in Bangladesh.

 

As you rightly said....I think he has phenomenal potential...never have I said he is a proven legend yet.

to be frank, the two 200's are pretty awesome esp the one in Eden gardens, even if people question the flat pitch small grounds(M Chin blore) etc, its still pretty awesome. Only Sachin and Sehwag could do it, out side of Gayle (Against Zim) or Guptil ( Wellington rugby stadium) i doubt anyone internationally could have done it may be B Macullum and Warner. But he sucks as a test bat though.

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1 minute ago, Vilander said:

to be frank, the two 200's are pretty awesome esp the one in Eden gardens, even if people question the flat pitch small grounds(M Chin blore) etc, its still pretty awesome. Only Sachin and Sehwag could do it, out side of Gayle (Against Zim) or Guptil ( Wellington rugby stadium) i doubt anyone internationally could have done it may be B Macullum and Warner. But he sucks as a test bat though.

Fixed and reputation given :nice:

 

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Also has a 250 in SOuth Africa and a Man of the series in Bangladesh.

 

As you rightly said....I think he has phenomenal potential...never have I said he is a proven legend yet.

I am referring to bowling .

Not sure what the double hundred in South Africa has anything to with it .

As I earlier he hasn't shown anything since the Ashes debut in bowling to show he has phenomenal potential to be an all rounder .

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