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Austin 3:!6

So how long is the rope for Saha?

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3 minutes ago, CG said:

What did other batters do?

On these kinds of pitches it's not easy.Even so called dekock looks like fish out of water.

What is wrong in giving Parthiv a chance to mix it up?

Edited by Khota

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I agree but what is wrong in giving Parthiv a chance to mix it up?
Parthiv Just can't keep Has history of dropping sitters .Even Kl Rahul would have been a better bet.

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1 minute ago, CG said:
2 minutes ago, Khota said:
I agree but what is wrong in giving Parthiv a chance to mix it up?

Parthiv Just can't keep Has history of dropping sitters .Even Kl Rahul would have been a better bet.

No he would not. rahuls job is to score runs and currently it looks like a terrible decision to drop Dhawan.

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9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

A keeper who routinely drops 2-4 chances per test has no place even being the backup of a backup for a mediocre bowling attack. That's whats wrong with it.

 

He wouldhave dropped catches.

He might have dropped catches.

Would have could have should have.

 

None of us knows here if Saha would have taken those catches.

 

Saha would have taken those catches. Hypothetical.

 

Parthiv scored more runs. fact.

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1 minute ago, New guy said:

Lol, two posts ago you said Vijay scored those 46 runs because it was an easy pitch

Vijay is being compared with Dhawan.

 

Parthiv with Saha.

 

Apples and Oranges.

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15 hours ago, Khota said:

He wouldhave dropped catches.

He might have dropped catches.

Would have could have should have.

 

None of us knows here if Saha would have taken those catches.

 

Saha would have taken those catches. Hypothetical.

 

Parthiv scored more runs. fact.

Saha is a way better catcher than Parthiv. Also a fact.

Saha did not play on THIS pitch, so whether Saha would score more/less than Dropthiv is also a hypothetical, not a fact.

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4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Saha is a way better catcher than Parthiv. Also a fact.

Saha did not play on THIS pitch, so whether Saha would score more/less than Dropthiv is also a hypothetical, not a fact.

Saha is a better catcher is an opinion. Not a fact.

 

 

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Here are some facts, harsh but still facts:

 

Player     Matches Played     Catch/Match         Stumps/match

 

A                  23                        2.26                  0.43

B                  32                        2.34                  0.31

 

 

Who is the better player?

 

Ans

(a) Player A

(b) Player B

(c) About the same

(d) Our agenda player

 

So far the mob has picked answer (d).

 

No objectivity. None whatsoever.

 

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15 hours ago, Khota said:

Saha is a better catcher is an opinion. Not a fact.

 

 

Sure is a fact, given that we can actually track the # of drops per match. For eg, Saha has dropped as many in the whole of 2017 as Parthiv has dropped/failed to attempt in this match alone.

 

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15 hours ago, Khota said:

Here are some facts, harsh but still facts:

 

Player     Matches Played     Catch/Match         Stumps/match

 

A                  23                        2.26                  0.43

B                  32                        2.34                  0.31

 

 

Who is the better player?

 

Ans

(a) Player A

(b) Player B

(c) About the same

(d) Our agenda player

 

So far the mob has picked answer (d).

 

No objectivity. None whatsoever.

 

This is simple twisting of data from you, nothing more. Wicketkeepers are not rated on catches per match, because its bowlers who generate chances. This is why Gillchrist had way more catches/match than Healy, despite Healy being a way better keeper- because Gillchrist played way longer with McGrath, a 4th stump bowler who generates way more catches.


by the same token, bowlers like McGrath, Philander, Ambrose will generate way more catches for their keepers than bowlers like Akram, Bond or Waqar.

 

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34 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

This is simple twisting of data from you, nothing more. Wicketkeepers are not rated on catches per match, because its bowlers who generate chances. This is why Gillchrist had way more catches/match than Healy, despite Healy being a way better keeper- because Gillchrist played way longer with McGrath, a 4th stump bowler who generates way more catches.


by the same token, bowlers like McGrath, Philander, Ambrose will generate way more catches for their keepers than bowlers like Akram, Bond or Waqar.

 

This is a simple denial by you. Higher drops per match would lead to fewer catches but facts dont support that. 

You can do better than that.

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38 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Sure is a fact, given that we can actually track the # of drops per match. For eg, Saha has dropped as many in the whole of 2017 as Parthiv has dropped/failed to attempt in this match alone.

 

Events that do not take place cannot be reported. Missed catch is as subjective as glass half full or half empty.

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8 hours ago, Gollum said:

Jeff Dujon and Deryck Murray were in the Saha mould, weren't they part of that ATG WI side? Gilchrist is a recent phenomenon, as is Andy Flower. Sanga the keeper was underwhelming with the bat. Boucher again played close to 150 tests and was more or less like Saha. Before Gilly the template was to have a safe keeper rather than a good batsman who could keep, were none of those teams good? Why should we follow the Aussie template, let us create our own template and build a team accordingly. We have so many other things to worry about if we want to become a dominant team, Saha is not a problem that deserves all the scrutiny. In fact because of our weak catching we desperately need a great keeper to minimize the damage. 

 

If we have a good fast bowling A/R in Pandya at no 6, 2 out of Jaddu/Bhuvi/Ash at no 7 and 8 with Saha as no 9 isn't that good enough to become a dominant team? This way we have a long and dangerous tail with the GOAT keeper who makes 1 mistake in 8 innings, what more do you want? Let us build a team based on our strengths/weaknesses rather than trying to imitate the ATG teams of yesteryear. Our present problems are our top 5, team selection and slip catching...Saha should not be a a punching bag just because he is the quiet kid. 

Jeff Dujon was undoubtedly one of the best pace bowler of modern era. Arguably greatest wicket keeper of all time. Alan Knott, some may argue.  Started as specialist batsman in fact on basis of his knocks in domestic cricket. But then when Murray was dropped as keeper, Jeff Dujon got the gloves. Jeff kept against Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts to begin with and also  Patterson, Benjamin and Bishop towards the end of his carreer. I think the only spinners WI had were Carl Hooper, Roger Harper and Klyde Butts. Keith Athurthon bowled part time spin. Having kept against pacers mostly he became very good at it. However, keeping during those times were purely wicket keeping duties. Runs were treated as a bonus. Keepers were not selected because they could bat. Still Jeff Dujo inspite of being one of the greatest wicket kepeer , played some good knocks batting just before the specialist bowlers. Considering the pace bowlers of that era and lack of protective gear and some uncovered wickets, he did good enough as a batsman as well.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

If they don't like someone they ll start picking every single mistake.. Like just arrived said.. Doesn't have to go back to Indian wade.. It's time for DK :rock: or someone else 

http://www.bcci.tv/news/2018/press-releases/17036/dinesh-karthik-to-replace-injured-wriddhiman-saha

 

Ohh well Don't know if they are faking injury or not.. Time for DK :drool:

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9 hours ago, Laaloo said:

We don't try wicket keepers in t20 where we have been playing a specialist keeper for the last 7 years and you want us to try in a test match overseas :cantstop:

Now you insult atg Dhoni who makes India all time XI in any format. 

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9 hours ago, Khota said:

This is a simple denial by you. Higher drops per match would lead to fewer catches but facts dont support that. 

You can do better than that.

Use your brain. If lower catches per match is due to higher drops, then all Indian wicketkeepers are second class citizens to Aussies. Or maybe higher catches or matches is due to what the bowling attack does. 

 

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9 hours ago, Khota said:

Events that do not take place cannot be reported. Missed catch is as subjective as glass half full or half empty.

Of course they are reported in the commentary feed. Nothing subjective about a dropped catch. 

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6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Of course they are reported in the commentary feed. Nothing subjective about a dropped catch. 

Not in cricket. If you want to do it correctly start doing it like baseball and keep a scoresheet with Errors. 

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8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Use your brain. If lower catches per match is due to higher drops, then all Indian wicketkeepers are second class citizens to Aussies. Or maybe higher catches or matches is due to what the bowling attack does. 

 

Let me ask you a simple yes or no question.

 

If wkt kpr A is much better than wkt kpr B in taking catches will it not show up in his stats?

 

I know your answer but I thought I should give you one more opportunity. 

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37 minutes ago, Khota said:

Let me ask you a simple yes or no question.

 

If wkt kpr A is much better than wkt kpr B in taking catches will it not show up in his stats?

 

I know your answer but I thought I should give you one more opportunity. 

It may or may not show up, as catches per match depends on how many chances bowlers create. In the 90s, one of the worst wicketkeepers was the West Indian keeper junior Murray. Who has better catches per matches than Mongia, one of the best catchers of that decade. Why ? Because Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop generated way more catching opportunities than the likes of Srinath, Prasad etc.

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10 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

It may or may not show up, as catches per match depends on how many chances bowlers create. In the 90s, one of the worst wicketkeepers was the West Indian keeper junior Murray. Who has better catches per matches than Mongia, one of the best catchers of that decade. Why ? Because Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop generated way more catching opportunities than the likes of Srinath, Prasad etc.

Incorrect. There is no Courtney Walsh vs Srinath comparison. Both Saha and Patel have the same set of bowlers so your argument is deeply flawed.

 

If you dont like Parthiv just say it like a man and I will be fine.

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47 minutes ago, Khota said:

Incorrect. There is no Courtney Walsh vs Srinath comparison. Both Saha and Patel have the same set of bowlers so your argument is deeply flawed.

 

If you dont like Parthiv just say it like a man and I will be fine.

Except they don't. Saha never kept to Kumble, Zaheer etc. Parthiv did.

I think I made it clear I don't like Parthiv because he is a crap keeper. This match alone he's dropped as many as Saha has dropped entire 2017. That makes Saha way better keeper.

 

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Just now, Muloghonto said:

Except they don't. Saha never kept to Kumble, Zaheer etc. Parthiv did.

I think I made it clear I don't like Parthiv because he is a crap keeper. This match alone he's dropped as many as Saha has dropped entire 2017. That makes Saha way better keeper.

 

The quality of bowling is the same and there is express fast bowler that both had to keep for. You cannot say with certainty that Saha would have got those. If you look at stats Saha is no better.

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3 minutes ago, Khota said:

The quality of bowling is the same and there is express fast bowler that both had to keep for. You cannot say with certainty that Saha would have got those. If you look at stats Saha is no better.

The quality of bowling isn't the same. Kumble was much harder to face and much more destructive at home than any bowler since. That includes Ashwin.

I have already explained to you why catches/matches stat is deeply flawed and you have not presented any counter to it.

What we can say, as a fact, is Parthiv has dropped as many in this match as Saha has dropped entire last year. Sure, we can't say for sure, but law of probability dictates that Saha most likely would've caught more than Parthiv did this match due to being a superior keeper.

 

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2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The quality of bowling isn't the same. Kumble was much harder to face and much more destructive at home than any bowler since. That includes Ashwin.

I have already explained to you why catches/matches stat is deeply flawed and you have not presented any counter to it.

What we can say, as a fact, is Parthiv has dropped as many in this match as Saha has dropped entire last year. Sure, we can't say for sure, but law of probability dictates that Saha most likely would've caught more than Parthiv did this match due to being a superior keeper.

 

No it is not. If one person cannot catch he will have fewer catches. That is easy peasy to understand.

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1 minute ago, Khota said:

No it is not. If one person cannot catch he will have fewer catches. That is easy peasy to understand.

If bowlers generate 10x less chances, the wicketkeeper will have way less catches.
This is demonstrated by the fact that practically every Aussie/Saffie keeper has way more catches/match for the last 25 years than ANY Indian or SL keeper.

Also very easy peasy to understand.


Until you can counter this point, there is no basis to the catches/matches idea.

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8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

If bowlers generate 10x less chances, the wicketkeeper will have way less catches.
This is demonstrated by the fact that practically every Aussie/Saffie keeper has way more catches/match for the last 25 years than ANY Indian or SL keeper.

Also very easy peasy to understand.


Until you can counter this point, there is no basis to the catches/matches idea.

Both Parthiv and Saha have the same set of Indian bowlers. One was not keeping for Aussies and other for Indians.

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20 minutes ago, Khota said:

Both Parthiv and Saha have the same set of Indian bowlers. One was not keeping for Aussies and other for Indians.

Except that is a false statement, as Saha has been keeping for only 2-3 years and Parthiv has played with bowlers like Kumble, Zaheer, Harbhajan- who Saha has never played with.

 

The Aussies vs Indians was an example of why catches/matches cannot be used to evaluate keepers, unless you believe that ALL Indian keepers are worse than ALL Aussie keepers.

 

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Just now, Muloghonto said:

Except that is a false statement, as Saha has been keeping for only 2-3 years and Parthiv has played with bowlers like Kumble, Zaheer, Harbhajan- who Saha has never played with.

 

The Aussies vs Indians was an example of why catches/matches cannot be used to evaluate keepers, unless you believe that ALL Indian keepers are worse than ALL Aussie keepers.

 

No I am not. But Indian keepers had same style of bowling to keep. Saha did not get one style and Parthiv the other.

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19 minutes ago, Khota said:

No I am not. But Indian keepers had same style of bowling to keep. Saha did not get one style and Parthiv the other.

Same style of bowling does not mean same bowling. West Indies has same style of bowling today as in the 1990s ( 3-4 pacers + 1 spinner). Does not mean they are the same bowlers.

 

As I said, your statement that Parthiv kept against the same  bowlers, is incorrect. Even if he did, what type of pitches, etc. makes helluva difference.

Perfect example : that tour of SL where SL killed us in one test by scoring 900 in one innings, then put out a raging turner the next match. How the hell is a keeper, keeping in the 1st test (900+ runs in one innings) have the same catches/match as someone keeping in the next match, where 20 wickets fell and not 6-7 ??

Your catches/matches has more holes in it than grade-A swiss cheese.

 

Edited by Muloghonto

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2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Same style of bowling does not mean same bowling. West Indies has same style of bowling today as in the 1990s ( 3-4 pacers + 1 spinner). Does not mean they are the same bowlers.

 

As I said, your statement that Parthiv kept against the same type of bowlers, is incorrect. Even if he did, what type of pitches, etc. makes helluva difference.

Perfect example : that tour of SL where SL killed us in one test by scoring 900 in one innings, then put out a raging turner the next match. How the hell is a keeper, keeping in the 1st test (900+ runs in one innings) have the same catches/match as someone keeping in the next match, where 20 wickets fell and not 6-7 ??

Your catches/matches has more holes in it than grade-A swiss cheese.

 

Appreciate your patience to respond to arguments like "All Indian bowlers across era are the same"

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11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Same style of bowling does not mean same bowling. West Indies has same style of bowling today as in the 1990s ( 3-4 pacers + 1 spinner). Does not mean they are the same bowlers.

 

As I said, your statement that Parthiv kept against the same  bowlers, is incorrect. Even if he did, what type of pitches, etc. makes helluva difference.

Perfect example : that tour of SL where SL killed us in one test by scoring 900 in one innings, then put out a raging turner the next match. How the hell is a keeper, keeping in the 1st test (900+ runs in one innings) have the same catches/match as someone keeping in the next match, where 20 wickets fell and not 6-7 ??

Your catches/matches has more holes in it than grade-A swiss cheese.

 

I did it over lots of tests. That minimizes the variatins. i can dig deeper but dont have time.

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1 minute ago, Khota said:

I did it over lots of tests. That minimizes the variatins. i can dig deeper but dont have time.

You are making things up now.

20-25 tests spread over 13-14 years versus 20-25 tests in 2-3 years is definition of high varience. We are not comparing two players who have 80+ tests under their belt, where 'things even out'. We are quite literally comparing players who's entire career is equivalent to 2 full seasons of tests so far.

 

I have given you multiple reasons why catches/matches is a flawed idea and you have not tackled one of them directly.

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17 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You are making things up now.

20-25 tests spread over 13-14 years versus 20-25 tests in 2-3 years is definition of high varience. We are not comparing two players who have 80+ tests under their belt, where 'things even out'. We are quite literally comparing players who's entire career is equivalent to 2 full seasons of tests so far.

 

I have given you multiple reasons why catches/matches is a flawed idea and you have not tackled one of them directly.

For the same set of bowlers it is a valid reason. You have made up your mind and we are wasting time at this stage.

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1 minute ago, Khota said:

For the same set of bowlers it is a valid reason. You have made up your mind and we are wasting time at this stage.

No it is not a valid reason. Because many other factors influence catches/match than just the same set of bowlers. I just gave u an example, where pitch matters. How do you expect a keeper, keeping to the same set of bowlers, to get the same catch/match ratio in a 4 test series, all draws with no test having 20 wickets (of opposition) falling, vs a keeper on a raging turner, where every match has 20 wickets ( of opposition) falls.

 

Your criteria is complete bakwaas.

 

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1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

Those who have less stumpings don't know how to do stumping lol  What has happened to ICF. It is almost like ICF average IQ dropped 10 points.

It is just one person who is unable to admit he is wrong and just doubling down. In the process he does not realize he is coming across as extremely immature, it's like a kid saying No, no to every fact which is brought up as he wants his own way

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Just now, New guy said:

It is just one person who is unable to admit he is wrong and just doubling down. In the process he does not realize he is coming across as extremely immature, it's like a kid saying No, no to every fact which is brought up as he wants his own way

It is like debating with Trump lol

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4 minutes ago, New guy said:

It is just one person who is unable to admit he is wrong and just doubling down. In the process he does not realize he is coming across as extremely immature, it's like a kid saying No, no to every fact which is brought up as he wants his own way

What you called facts are not yielding results.

 

Vijay is the greatest.

Dhawan outscores him. fact.

 

Show me your facts that have yielded any results. If your yield is nothing you have no facts.

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