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CPEC has ZERO economic viability, its a massive cost. Is the purpose something else?

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On 10/31/2017 at 1:44 PM, mishra said:

it was evident when they killed millions while creating borders on Western part of India, but no such thing happened at such large scale in Dhaka to Kolkata migration

How ignorant can you be.  There were massive riots in Calcutta and East/West Bengal during Partition and even before that - starting with the "direct action" days.    Without Bengali muslims spearheading it, the "Pakistan movement" would have flushed itself down the toilet in a couple of years.   

 

In spite of the Pakistani genocide against them, there's a reason why there's a significant percentage of Bangladeshis who are extremely anti-India.   

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32 minutes ago, sandeep said:

How ignorant can you be.  There were massive riots in Calcutta and East/West Bengal during Partition and even before that - starting with the "direct action" days.    Without Bengali muslims spearheading it, the "Pakistan movement" would have flushed itself down the toilet in a couple of years.   

 

In spite of the Pakistani genocide against them, there's a reason why there's a significant percentage of Bangladeshis who are extremely anti-India.   

This.

The 'hindustani brigade' forgets, that during actual partition time, Bengal province was the ground zero of independence 'andolan/morcha/michils' etc. Just as Bengali hindus were the most active group of independence movement demographics pre-independence, the bengali muslims made up the bulk of the Pakistan movement itself. 

 

and your bolded part is 100% on the money. Those Bangladeshis are the descendants of those Pakistani movement people. Hence it is why some of them are OK with genociding Bangladeshi hindus during 1971. 

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The Muslim League was founded at the behest of the Nawab of Dhaka Khwaja Salimullah, venue Dhaka. Forget Direct Action Day, Noakhali etc, read about how the Bengali Muslims supported the partition of Bengal in 1905 and sabotaged the Swadeshi movement. Targeted communal violence against Bengali Hindus was very common those days, no wonder Bengali Muslims were the driving force behind the creation of Pakistan (UP Muslims and Pak Punjabis entered the picture much later). Partition violence on the Eastern front was no less than the Western front. At least in North, the Hindus and Sikhs fought back, in Bengal the Hindus were very submissive and accepted the massacre without a whiff of protest. Later the Left Front did its bit in trying to whitewash the violence of the partition. Contrast that to the Northies who still haven't forgotten those dark years !!!! I know a few Bengali families who left their houses/properties in East Pakistan under the care of their Muslim servants in return for safe passage to West Bengal..... unfortunately there is no public documentation/museum to tell about the sufferings of the Bengali Hindus anywhere. 1971 is another whole different matter, has been discussed enough. Just to add Pak military wasn't alone in the genocide, Razakars, Al Shams and Al Badr massacred as many Hindus and secular Bengali Muslims as the Pak army. They still have a large network/following in BD, Bangladesh isn't much different than many other Islamofascist states the world over. What is most perplexing is the political leaning of most of the Bengalis in India today in spite of so much suffering at the hands of the desert cult. 

Edited by Gollum

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^ Below is a list

Calcutta Riots 15 August – 17 September 1946 West Bengal, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png British Raj 7,000 to 10,000 Hindus and Muslims. Hindus and Muslims clashed during a protest by All India Muslim League termed as Direct Action Day. [44]
Noakhali riots September–October 1946 East Bengal, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png British Raj 5,000 Hindus By Muslims in reaction to Calcutta killings. Muslim community attacked Hindu community for wealth and forced conversion to Islam. Around 50,000 to 75,000 survivors were sheltered in temporary relief camps [45][46][47]
Bihar Massacre 30 October – 7 November 1946 Bihar, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png British Raj 2,000-30,000 Muslims By Hindus in reaction to Noakhali riots [48]
Garhmukteshwar Anti-Muslim Violence November 1946 United Provinces, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png British Raj at least 214 Muslims partition of the country into India and Pakistan loomed. [49]
Partition of India 1947 Punjab, Delhi and Sindh, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png British Raj, 23px-Flag_of_India.svg.png Dominion of India and 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.pngDominion of Pakistan ~ 200,000 - 2,000,000 people Massacre of Sikhs and Hindus by Muslims in West Punjab and of Muslims by Sikhs and Hindus in East Punjab. The communal violence resulted in the murder of 20,000-25,000 Muslims in Delhi by Hindus. UNHCR estimates 14 million were displaced by the violence.

 

 

I think above page has been written by Some Muslim guy but a count of 200,000-2,000,000 vs say over all 15,000-20,000 in Bengali side completely mismatches the population density.

Now post partition till 1971 independence, It was Pakistani army which was systematically and as a job killing the Bengalis Hindus and that stopped only after independence of Bangladesh. Even now, their army and ISI is following a state policy of  eradicating all non Muslims from their area or areas of their influence(Kashmir, Balochistan, Afghanistan)

 

 

And thats my point. The Pakistan elites are still lselling same stuff called a Nation based on so called purity in religion. And hence, If may I say, Sooner or later, Balochistan will definitely part its way.

Edited by mishra

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^ Below is a list
Calcutta Riots 15 August – 17 September 1946 West Bengal, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.pngBritish Raj 7,000 to 10,000 Hindus and Muslims. Hindus and Muslims clashed during a protest by All India Muslim League termed as Direct Action Day. [44]
Noakhali riots September–October 1946 East Bengal, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.pngBritish Raj 5,000 Hindus By Muslims in reaction to Calcutta killings. Muslim community attacked Hindu community for wealth and forced conversion to Islam. Around 50,000 to 75,000 survivors were sheltered in temporary relief camps [45][46][47]
Bihar Massacre 30 October – 7 November 1946 Bihar, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.pngBritish Raj 2,000-30,000 Muslims By Hindus in reaction to Noakhali riots [48]
Garhmukteshwar Anti-Muslim Violence November 1946 United Provinces, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.pngBritish Raj at least 214 Muslims partition of the country into India and Pakistan loomed. [49]
Partition of India 1947 Punjab, Delhi and Sindh, 23px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.pngBritish Raj, 23px-Flag_of_India.svg.pngDominion of India and 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.pngDominion of Pakistan ~ 200,000 - 2,000,000 people Massacre of Sikhs and Hindus by Muslims in West Punjab and of Muslims by Sikhs and Hindus in East Punjab. The communal violence resulted in the murder of 20,000-25,000 Muslims in Delhi by Hindus. UNHCR estimates 14 million were displaced by the violence.
 
 
I think above page has been written by Some Muslim guy but a count of 200,000-2,000,000 vs say over all 15,000-20,000 in Bengali side completely mismatches the population density.
Now post partition till 1971 independence, It was Pakistani army which was systematically and as a job killing the Bengalis Hindus and that stopped only after independence of Bangladesh. Even now, their army and ISI is following a state policy of  eradicating all non Muslims from their area or areas of their influence(Kashmir, Balochistan, Afghanistan)
 
 
And thats my point. The Pakistan elites are still lselling same stuff called a Nation based on so called purity in religion. And hence, If may I say, Sooner or later, Balochistan will definitely part its way.
In sheer numbers Hindus are the most persecuted community in the world.Its our sheer tenacity that we still measure a billion plus.

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21 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Sire, can you plz mention the year and date. 

That post had a food for thought for you, but just like a commoner, all you notice was a date when you know there has been already two dates and third one is imminent

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On 11/2/2017 at 5:51 PM, mishra said:

That post had a food for thought for you, but just like a commoner, all you notice was a date when you know there has been already two dates and third one is imminent

two dates ? what dates ? ah 71.

so which is the second one ? 

and plz do mention the 3rd one if you know. 

Edited by KeyboardWarrior

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On 9/5/2017 at 4:54 PM, mishra said:

Just try searching miltary bases or naval bases of NATO, Russia, USA or UK. Not just standard countries, You will find small puny nation island which you would have never heard off. But all in all it will tell you how overwhelmingly they have occupied whole earth. For example, some think that War in Syria is down to somehow get rid of Russian Military base Tartus. America allready achived its partial objective by creating a airfied in Kurdish Controlled zone.

 

Now back to point. China is NOT a developing nation. It is friggin developed one. It has UN veto, It owns Green energy, It is manufacturing Hub of world,  Its Banks are biggest (3 out of top 5). It ihas technology just second to US in almost every sphere. It has International Currency. Now Problem lies in this Currency arena.   No one is using that International Currency. Why? Because its influence is limited to taking/giving political favours when two neighbouring nations are at loggerheads. It hasnt got capability to perform Military Interventions. So what to do?  Build the Capability of Military Intervention. This is last piece in its quest to become developed nation puzzle.

 

CPEC or BRI or String of Pearls project is NOT about building a economic corridors or anything. It is purely a excercise to create Military bases by China. There is no Carrot Stick. It is simply feed on the Hate of nations Like Pakistan, Combodia and so on or exploit the poverty of other nations, or simply sell them a alternative world but create a Naval/Military base.

 

Pakistanis refused free use of Chinese currency in its arena. However Its only matter of time as contion they have asked is let Pakistani Rupee be used. Now who in right mind (including Pakistanis) will take Pakistani Rupee over Yuan.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/pakistan-refuses-to-allow-free-use-of-yuan-for-cpec-projects/articleshow/61740849.cms

Quote

Pakistan refuses to allow free use of yuan for CPEC projects

 

 

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^ What above means is If Pakistan doesnt accepts Yuan, Be prepared for economic wrath caused due to Interest repayment on CPEC loan. If Pakistan accepts it, China may offer repackaging of its loans at lower rates. But in that case Pakistan it should be prepared for wrath of CIA and  should forget Durand Line and PoK for good.

So Pakistani leaders are to find a middle path. Which is neither accept it nor reject it till they secure their border on either side. Both India and Afghanistan are most likely to gain territories so securing the PAkistani border isnt going to be that easy.

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After months of wrangling with Pakistani establishment about dismantling terrorist network, America has made it clear to terrorists that it will not give any territory in Afghanistan but wont mind if Taliban/ISIS/Haqqani create a sanctuary in Pakistani territory. A shortcut to manage Chinese OBOR. No wonder a few weeks back Chinese declared they are re evaluating CPEC funding.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-terror-group-ties-could-cost-pakistan-territorial-control/4162032.html

Quote

ISLAMABAD — 

The United States has warned Pakistan it could lose control of its territory unless Islamabad abandons ties with terrorist groups operating in the country that are growing in "size and influence."

U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson issued the warning as Washington and Islamabad renew efforts to improve bilateral relations and find "common ground" to promote peace in neighboring Afghanistan.

"We want to work with Pakistan to stamp out terrorism within their boundaries as well, but Pakistan has to begin the process of changing its relationship with the Haqqani Network and with others," Tillerson said at a public talk in Washington on Tuesday.

A U.S.-led military coalition is helping the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) to contain a resurgent Taliban insurgency.

Insurgents and leaders of a group allied with the Haqqani Network are allegedly orchestrating attacks from sanctuaries in Pakistan, with the help of the neighboring country's spy agency.

"Pakistan has allowed so many terrorist organizations to find safe haven within its territories, and these organizations are growing in size and influence," Tillerson said.

The secretary said he had warned Pakistani leaders that the terrorist groups might turn their attention from Kabul and decide they like Islamabad better as a target. He cautioned, "If they're not careful, Pakistan is going to lose control of their own country."

....

:nervous: Whatever Pakistani icfers think about India but IMO, GoI should tread this US moove with caution. Under no circumstances terrorist should have upper hand in Pakistani Punjab. That will be too close to our comfort.

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On 12/15/2017 at 7:27 AM, mishra said:

After months of wrangling with Pakistani establishment about dismantling terrorist network, America has made it clear to terrorists that it will not give any territory in Afghanistan but wont mind if Taliban/ISIS/Haqqani create a sanctuary in Pakistani territory. A shortcut to manage Chinese OBOR. No wonder a few weeks back Chinese declared they are re evaluating CPEC funding.

 

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-terror-group-ties-could-cost-pakistan-territorial-control/4162032.html

:nervous: Whatever Pakistani icfers think about India but IMO, GoI should tread this US moove with caution. Under no circumstances terrorist should have upper hand in Pakistani Punjab. That will be too close to our comfort.

Depends. 
As long as Pakistani nukes are accounted for/taken control of by Uncle Sam, a destabilized Pakistan is in our best interests.

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8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Despite the fact that they hand out way too many debuts to undeserving players and even fudge the age for U-19 world cups and such, i think your article is relating to its debt problem, not debut problem :)


:cantstop:

My fingers get to know its a cricket forum.

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43 minutes ago, velu said:

its borrowers problem till they get the money ...

its lenders problem after lending the money ...

 

pakistan can ask china for loan waiver or haircut ( partial loan waiver ) ..

 

Why does Pakistan need IMF if it has the support of Unkil Saud and Unkil Cheen?  

 

Let's see what the IMF does this time and puts in proper conditions in return for yet another bailout. 

 

Is it a co-incidence that on either side of China's borders there are 2 beggar corrupt nations who have nukes and missiles who use violence and the threat of self-implosion to blackmail the rest of the world.  I think not.

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9 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Why does Pakistan need IMF if it has the support of Unkil Saud and Unkil Cheen?  

Because the uncles want to divert the loaned money to them. Chinese (and Saudi companies?) will get rich and Pak politicians / military will get their cut, while Pak will be subjected to more debt burden .... May be the Chinese and Saudi banks are not too sure on the prospects of getting the money back from Pak (which is diverted back to China and Saudi) :lol:

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14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Why does Pakistan need IMF if it has the support of Unkil Saud and Unkil Cheen?  

  

Let's see what the IMF does this time and puts in proper conditions in return for yet another bailout. 

 

most probably they will help pakistan again , but they will surely impose more rigorous terms this time ..

 

if pakistan is smart , they shld tell china that these completed  projects are economically useless and take haircut on loans ..

argentina did play this game time and again .. 

 

it wont hurt pakistan financially if they offer china  to take care of those infra projects , it will hurt their ego and nothing else ..

maldives and other african countries are in far more serious trouble than pakistan though ..

 

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7 minutes ago, zen said:

Because the uncles want to divert the loaned money to them. Chinese (and Saudi companies?) will get rich and Pak politicians / military will get their cut, while Pak will be subjected to more debt burden .... May be the Chinese and Saudi banks are not too sure on the prospects of getting the money back from Pak (which is diverted back to China and Saudi) :lol:

ding.

 

PakMilitary Mafia doesn't give jackshit that their awaam are constantly getting molested by all these unkils.  Over and over again.  I remember reading last year that each "Corp Commander" in Pakistan is a dollar multi-millionaire.  While the avg soldier is pyis poor.  

 

The Zamindaar culture never got cleaned up in the West Punjab.  They just put on uniforms.  

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46 minutes ago, sandeep said:

ding.

 

PakMilitary Mafia doesn't give jackshit that their awaam are constantly getting molested by all these unkils.  Over and over again.  I remember reading last year that each "Corp Commander" in Pakistan is a dollar multi-millionaire.  While the avg soldier is pyis poor.  

 

The Zamindaar culture never got cleaned up in the West Punjab.  They just put on uniforms.  

China is developing a route through Burma as well iirc. The money is made through construction projects. Pak would be expected to pay for the construction expenses through loans, and pay back the loans through the economic activity generated through the projects .... ROI, if any, is likely to be low which could put Chinese/Saudi banks at risk, therefore the role of IMF 

 

At the end of the day, CPEC, iirc, = some long roads, ports, old tech power plants (China making money out of scrap tech probably), etc  .... And because the region is termed volatile, it is probably like spending money to build a nice hotel on an active volcano :lol:  

 

 

Edited by zen

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3 hours ago, zen said:

And because the region is termed volatile, it is probably like spending money to build a nice hotel on an active volcano

And due to the "risk" factor China charges these corrupt 'governments' running these countries extremely high interest rates - comparable to what any commercial bank would charge.  Normally country-to-country loans are at super-low interest rates, especially those where investment is funneled, and like Chinese projects, the contracts are going to companies from the lender country.  But with China, its super high interest rates, plus all the contracts go to Chinese vendors, who mass import their own people for even low-end jobs.  its basically economic strip-mining, and the only locals who really benefit are the ones that get bribes to pass the 'approvals'.  All the while the Chinese Communist party sings and dances about 'non interference in domestic affairs'.

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24 minutes ago, sandeep said:

And due to the "risk" factor China charges these corrupt 'governments' running these countries extremely high interest rates - comparable to what any commercial bank would charge.  Normally country-to-country loans are at super-low interest rates, especially those where investment is funneled, and like Chinese projects, the contracts are going to companies from the lender country.  But with China, its super high interest rates, plus all the contracts go to Chinese vendors, who mass import their own people for even low-end jobs.  its basically economic strip-mining, and the only locals who really benefit are the ones that get bribes to pass the 'approvals'.  All the while the Chinese Communist party sings and dances about 'non interference in domestic affairs'.

Once the corridor becomes functional, and with mainly Saudi and China as key customers (transfer of oil from ME and goods from China), these guys will further dictate economic terms making it difficult for Pak companies to earn decent profits in the mid to long term 

 

To get out of this, Pak would then have to look for a new scheme to fraud the world but now most countries have learned their lessons and it would be seen as another cry of “lion is here, lion is here”  .... Leaving Pak with no option but to be at the mercy of China, which likes to grab territories 

 

If and when that happens, I hope that we have a strong govt at the center, one that does not try to act like a big brother / good neighbor 

Edited by zen

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4 minutes ago, zen said:

Once the corridor becomes functional, and with mainly Saudi and China as key customers (transfer of oil from ME and goods from China), these guys will further dictate economic terms making it difficult for Pak companies to earn decent profits in the mid to long term 

 

To get out of this, Pak would then have to look for a new scheme to fraud the world but now most countries have learned their lessons and it would be seen as another cry of “lion is here, lion is here”  .... Leaving Pak with no option but to be at the mercy of China, which likes to grab territories 

 

If and when that happens, I hope that we have a strong govt at the center, one that does not try to act like a big brother / good neighbor 

The fun is really going to start once "phase 2" of CPEC kicks in.  The Chinese have already laid detailed plans to shift maximum amount of value-add business over to their end of the Karaokorum highway.  You know how every world cup, some greenbros proudly post pictures of the FIFA soccer ball since some of them are made there?  All such businesses are destined to shift to China in the near-term.  Just look at what happened to Pakistan's Granite industry over the last few years.  

 

And then once the die is firmly cast, the other shoe will finally drop.  Allowing Chinese businesses to heavily invest in and dominate agriculture in Pakistan.  That's right - the Pakistan "government" has sold off the rights of its farmers, forcing them to compete against the Chinese versions of Kelloggs, Monsanto etc in the coming years.  Their only way out will be actual agricultural serfdom to their Chinese overlords.  

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12 hours ago, Number said:

Not related to CPEC but it seems that Pakistan's debut debt problem has hit the fan.

 

 

 

It is related to CPEC. Introduction of CPEC brought down the Bond yeild of pakistan. Currently it is consistently climbing to a rate which is near to just pre-CPEC era.

CPEC was result of near bankruptcy. Now CPEC loan repayment is again resulting in bankruptcy. It will be real fun how various nations decides to deal with nuclear armed nation

https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/government-bond-yield

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