Is BK a viable test option

[Cricketics]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I will play Shami, Bhuvi and Umesh in England....if we don't find a new seamer.   Binny can be the swing bowler all-rounder in England.

 

Bhuvi and Umesh are swing bowlers and Shami gets swing  too.  

 

Picking 2 medium pacers would tie our hands if the pitch becomes flatter or the swing goes....like it happened in the Lords test last time.

Ideally, I would like to see Shami/Bhuvi/Aaron in tests in South Africa or England. I still feel Aaron has a lot to give to Indian cricket. He can be a really good option overseas, and will compliment well to a good swing bowler like Bhuvneshwar Kumar.

 

this line up looks pretty good

Vijay

Mukund or another opener.

PUJARA

KOHLI

RAHANE

KEEPER(SAHA, Pant, Ojha)

ASHWIN

Pandya/Binny/Kulkarni

Bhuvi

Shami

Aaron

 

Reserved players

Nathu Singh, Sandeep Sharma, Jadeja

 

[MK55]

Not many teams have two BK like line and length bowlers in their side and BK's doing a decent job in that role. So I wont have more than one bowler with that type of bowling

So I'd stick with Ishant, Umesh, Shami and BK. Aaron definitely needs to be given more chances. And if we're looking to include some new bowlers in the side, then I'd look for someone who is capable of generating good bounce and can bowl quickly over sustained periods of time. Definitely not someone of Praveen Kumar type, regardless of how accurate they are, where we play and the pitch. Its not that bowlers with decent bounce and pace are incapable of picking wickets in helpful conditions. If we don't find such bowlers, better to stick with what we've got and communicate a signal to the youngsters about the type of bowlers that are sought at the international level.   

 

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, MK55 said:

Not many teams have two BK like line and length bowlers in their side and BK's doing a decent job in that role. So I wont have more than one bowler with that type of bowling

So I'd stick with Ishant, Umesh, Shami and BK. Aaron definitely needs to be given more chances. And if we're looking to include some new bowlers in the side, then I'd look for someone who is capable of generating good bounce and can bowl quickly over sustained periods of time. Definitely not someone of Praveen Kumar type, regardless of how accurate they are, where we play and the pitch. Its not that bowlers with decent bounce and pace are incapable of picking wickets in helpful conditions. If we don't find such bowlers, better to stick with what we've got and communicate a signal to the youngsters about the type of bowlers that are sought at the international level.   

 

There are options who can be tried, but haven't been given them. Time to look beyond Aaron also perhaps - guy gets injured a lot. Doesn't seem like long format option

[New guy]

11 hours ago, MCcricket said:

Bhuvis figures are the best case scenario since he is picked for conditions ideally suited for him n instances when he was played on no seaming tracks he has come a cropper, what if we had a batter who could not bat against seamers, would we have him in our lineup , no because we need versatility, for Bhuvi that is what he lacks. Currently he is a one trick pony and even Pandya is more versatile as he can pin the batter on the back door with his 140 K bouncer n then bowl fuller one, All Bhuvi can do is pitch it up n hope to swing, so that is limited, he cannot use reverse swing, bounce or bowl short at all with his pace, at this point even Aaron, Ishant n Pandya are more versatile bowlers then BK.

Yes BK would be my pick as third seamer in limited venues in SA, NZ ,Eng n that could be maybe one or max 2 test per tour as third seamer n should not ever play as 2 seamer because he is in effective

If you really belive this bilge, you have not ever watched him bowl. In the NZ series not only was he bouncing batsmen, he was taking wickets with reverse swing despite him not getting much overs. You judge him based on his comeback on a fast bowler grave yard here

 

Repeating what was true 5 years ago and ignoring everything which happened in the last few series because you know - My spedguns!!!!

Edited December 11, 2016 by New guy

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, MK55 said:

Not many teams have two BK like line and length bowlers in their side and BK's doing a decent job in that role. So I wont have more than one bowler with that type of bowling

So I'd stick with Ishant, Umesh, Shami and BK. Aaron definitely needs to be given more chances. And if we're looking to include some new bowlers in the side, then I'd look for someone who is capable of generating good bounce and can bowl quickly over sustained periods of time. Definitely not someone of Praveen Kumar type, regardless of how accurate they are, where we play and the pitch. Its not that bowlers with decent bounce and pace are incapable of picking wickets in helpful conditions. If we don't find such bowlers, better to stick with what we've got and communicate a signal to the youngsters about the type of bowlers that are sought at the international level.   

 

BK is good not just because of line and length but swing with that line and length. I have another bowler like him if we are to play a test match at Lords tomorrow.

[New guy]

The guy is making a comeback on a seamer's graveyard here and yet been the only pace bowler who took a wicket from India. Speed guns fanatics here are the worst who blindly follow speed gun readings and fail to see anything else. They furiously jerk each other off every time speed gun shows 140 and that is the only language they clearly understand

 

Hence despite Umesh failing most times they will have orgasms each time they see the speedgun readings. Hence he is amazing if he even takes 2 wickets on some more seamer friendly wickets. Bhuvi despite coming from an injury and bowling 8 overs straight day 1, will be castigated

 

Are they really so blind that cannot see that not even a single bowler has been successful on this pitch if he is not a spinner? The much more experience Anderson has done nothing. They keep talking about speed gun readings blindly despite the fact that BK has run through sides before

 

Speed gun fanatics should be closed in a room with VR simulations of speed guns running all day with them jerking each other off. If BK coming back from an injury is a failure because of this one game then Umesh has failed the entire year averaging 50. But they will blindly swallow all that because ............ my speedgun

 

Umesh has taken 1-2 wickets per test match MANY times this year. BK is making a comeback for the worst wicket for seamers this years and has taken 1 wicket where Umesh has 0 on the same pitch. Yet BK is not viable you guys because - muh speedguns!!!!

 

And of course there are posters who deliberately ignore BK bouncing batsmen out or taking wickets of reverse swing and repeat the same thing which was true 5 years before

Edited December 11, 2016 by New guy

[rkt.india]

5 minutes ago, New guy said:

If you really belive this bilge, you have not ever watched him bowl. In the NZ series not only was he bouncing batsmen, he was taking wickets with reverse swing despite him not getting much overs. You judge him based on his comeback on a fast bowler grave yard here

[New guy]

Speed gun fanatics - Umesh is so much more effective than BK because he is phast---- just see the speed guns

 

Reality - BK leads Umesh in every single stats

 

Reality - BK is the only Indian seam bowler with a wicket here and Umesh has zero 

 

If BK is not a viable option, Umesh who does worse than him on the same pitch and averages 50 this year cannot be

Edited December 11, 2016 by New guy

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, New guy said:

Speed gun fanatics - Umesh is so much more effective than BK because he is phast---- just see the speed guns

 

Reality - BK leads Umesh in every single stats

 

Reality - BK is the only Indian seam bowler with a wicket here and Umesh has zero 

 

If BK is not a viable option, Umesh who does worse than him on the same pitch and averages 50 this year cannot be

Umesh had a drop catch when Jennings was on 0 in first innings.

[New guy]

12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Umesh had a drop catch when Jennings was on 0 in first innings.

And BK had a LBW of him which was not given just for umpire's call (Umpire could have easily given it out like today, it looked out) and another which just went off the slips in his first over. Umesh catch the fielder just reached a finger tip to it

Edited December 11, 2016 by New guy

[Cricketics]

29 minutes ago, New guy said:

The guy is making a comeback on a seamer's graveyard here and yet been the only pace bowler who took a wicket from India. Speed guns fanatics here are the worst who blindly follow speed gun readings and fail to see anything else. They furiously jerk each other off every time speed gun shows 140 and that is the only language they clearly understand

 

Hence despite Umesh failing most times they will have orgasms each time they see the speedgun readings. Hence he is amazing if he even takes 2 wickets on some more seamer friendly wickets. Bhuvi despite coming from an injury and bowling 8 overs straight day 1, will be castigated

 

Are they really so blind that cannot see that not even a single bowler has been successful on this pitch if he is not a spinner? The much more experience Anderson has done nothing. 

And of course there are posters who deliberately ignore BK bouncing batsmen out or taking wickets of reverse swing and repeat the same thing which was true 5 years before

When BK's performances are mentioned, all the fifers he took recently have been labeled by these speed gun fans as the fifer on green pitche or fifer on a bowler friendly condition. Fact is that I rather have someone who bowl line and length all day than someome like Umesh in his current state who will bowl a good bouncer and then start spraying to drop the momentum.

 

The more Bhuvi plays, the more he will start to set up his field with Kohli and the more success India will have, definitely more than they can expect to have with Umesh currently.  Umesh is someone who is very under comfident and he will perhaps not even ask the captain to give him his field as he just want to pick the ball and bowl. At that level, you have to set up the batsman and bowl to your field.

 

Have nothing against Umesh who has actually bowled well for a change in this series but still very inconsistent for me to be picked ahead of Bhuvi. 

 

It is common sense actually if one is watching ball to ball game, that Bhuvi can bowl a good line all day on good wickets and has more control on his bowling. Line and length will eventually earn him more wickets and his speed is not that less. He is still pretty quick to trouble someone with an odd bouncer and follow that up with an inswing delivery. These are some of the basics which Umesh fails to do. Yes, this is bowler's basic to bowl a short one from either side of the wicket and then change it up etc. Umesh bowls a good bouncer, and then follows it up with a wide down the leg in search of another short delivery. Dude just bowl a yorker after you have already bowled short on the previous ball.

 

Bhuvi plays 2-3 tests in a row and I am telling you that he is the bowler we would want to have for every test. Kumble needs to play him more home games.

 

 

[Samcric]

I think the answer to the question in the topic can only be provided once Bhuvi has played at least 3-4 test matches on flat pitches. If he averages over 40, fair enough, he should not be included on flat/rough turning pitches.

 

Problem is that many people just rule him out based on his speed. Wonder if these same people would never play guys like Pollock or Zaheer who were 130-135Ks. Then the second answer is that BK does not have tools/skills. In England's second innings today, the guy got Jennings out with an inswinger to leftie (same way he got Latham out in Eden Gardens). Bowled 3 outswingers and one back to Cook to trap him LBW. At least with BK, you see that he is thinking of ways to trap and get batsmen out. Haven't seen this with bowlers like Ishant and Umesh and that is the main reason they average 37-38. They have the gift of pace but not enough of intelligence to go with it.

 

As many people have pointed out, it would be great if we can find new bowlers who can fill in this gap - a fast bowler who can think and trap batsmen. Or if Hardik Pandya can bowl consistently at 140K+ and is accurate enough. But it is utterly unfair when people rule out BK just because he is 10K slower than an Umesh or Ishant. 

 

[G_B_]

I tend to agree. Not a pitch to judge him on. His batting skills as well. Not much to judge him on considering he was asked to smash it

Sent from my Wileyfox Swift using Tapatalk

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Samcric said:

I think the answer to the question in the topic can only be provided once Bhuvi has played at least 3-4 test matches on flat pitches. If he averages over 40, fair enough, he should not be included on flat/rough turning pitches.

 

Problem is that many people just rule him out based on his speed. Wonder if these same people would never play guys like Pollock or Zaheer who were 130-135Ks. Then the second answer is that BK does not have tools/skills. In England's second innings today, the guy got Jennings out with an inswinger to leftie (same way he got Latham out in Eden Gardens). Bowled 3 outswingers and one back to Cook to trap him LBW. At least with BK, you see that he is thinking of ways to trap and get batsmen out. Haven't seen this with bowlers like Ishant and Umesh and that is the main reason they average 37-38. They have the gift of pace but not enough of intelligence to go with it.

 

As many people have pointed out, it would be great if we can find new bowlers who can fill in this gap - a fast bowler who can think and trap batsmen. Or if Hardik Pandya can bowl consistently at 140K+ and is accurate enough. But it is utterly unfair when people rule out BK just because he is 10K slower than an Umesh or Ishant. 

 

 

I am all for giving Bhuvi chances on flat tracks and seeing how he does rather than speculating.  That is the only way to take an informed decision.  My issue with him is NOT his release speeds of 125 k to 139 k...which is acceptable...but that he does not have the ability to hit the deck hard with any regularity and get bounce and life out of the pitch when there is no swing on offer.  Whether he can make up for this with his intelligence is something that only giving chances to him will reveal.    (  Like Steffi Graf did not hit a back-hand drive and only sliced the ball, but made up for it with her fierce fore-hand  : )     )

 

In the meantime, we should look to find new seamers who have pace/ bounce and  have the intelligence to bowl to an effective plan too.

 

p.s-  Zaheer bowled 130 k to 142 k in tests in his peak years and not 130 k to 135 k....and had a sharp bouncer too.  Pollock was 128 k to 138 k range and was tall and got bounce.   The only successful seamer who is comparable with Bhuvi in terms of pace/ height/ bounce is Philander.    : )

Edited December 11, 2016 by express bowling

[Mosher]

9 minutes ago, Samcric said:

Problem is that many people just rule him out based on his speed. Wonder if these same people would never play guys like Pollock or Zaheer who were 130-135Ks.

Zaheer was no trundler. He was bowling in the 140's when he debuted.  Then slowed down as he got older and also because of injuries. One of the reasons he retired was because he unable to bowl at the pace that he wanted. Zaheer was a really clever bowler who knew when to put in more effort. He used to ball in the 130's with the new ball and that was by choice and not limitation. He would conserve himself to speed-up later when the ball would start reversing. From his interview on Firstpost. http://www.firstpost.com/sports/exclusive-with-zaheer-khan-big-interview-the-nature-of-a-batsman-did-not-matter-bowling-was-about-getting-into-his-mind-says-zaheer-khan-2503146.html

 

So, were you ready to sacrifice your pace in the latter part of your career?

Not really! I would say I was working more with the reverse swing which I used effectively. The whole approach used to be around reverse swing. Later, when I was playing in the subcontinent, I would probably not bowl that much with the new ball. As long as the ball is new and hard, I would have that initial blast and then wait for the ball to reverse so that I am fresh. Even the team management was using me in that way and that was usually the strategy. So I used lot of reverse swing. You need to have variations. Speed-up is also a variation and at international level you do need the basic speed and work around it. So that's what I used to focus on later on in my career.

[Vilander]

Bk is good in grassy tracks with overcast swing aiding conditions very good if you add a new ball to it.   He is average if one of the above is not available. He is useless if none is available.

[Vilander]

37 minutes ago, Samcric said:

I think the answer to the question in the topic can only be provided once Bhuvi has played at least 3-4 test matches on flat pitches. If he averages over 40, fair enough, he should not be included on flat/rough turning pitches.

 

Problem is that many people just rule him out based on his speed. Wonder if these same people would never play guys like Pollock or Zaheer who were 130-135Ks. Then the second answer is that BK does not have tools/skills. In England's second innings today, the guy got Jennings out with an inswinger to leftie (same way he got Latham out in Eden Gardens). Bowled 3 outswingers and one back to Cook to trap him LBW. At least with BK, you see that he is thinking of ways to trap and get batsmen out. Haven't seen this with bowlers like Ishant and Umesh and that is the main reason they average 37-38. They have the gift of pace but not enough of intelligence to go with it.

 

As many people have pointed out, it would be great if we can find new bowlers who can fill in this gap - a fast bowler who can think and trap batsmen. Or if Hardik Pandya can bowl consistently at 140K+ and is accurate enough. But it is utterly unfair when people rule out BK just because he is 10K slower than an Umesh or Ishant. 

 

Lol are you 18? Did you see zaheer bowl when he was below 30 ?

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Zaheer was no trundler. He was bowling in the 140's when he debuted.  Then slowed down as he got older and also because of injuries. One of the reasons he retired was because he unable to bowl at the pace that he wanted. Zaheer was a really clever bowler who knew when to put in more effort. He used to ball in the 130's with the new ball and that was by choice and not limitation. He would conserve himself to speed-up later when the ball would start reversing.

 

Yes..... Even up to 32 years...he used to bowl those 135 k to 142 k spells when the ball stopped swinging conventionally.  His bouncer was quite sharp and well directed and he used it well.

 

 

[WC2011INDIA]

Where is @radhika...Bhuvi needs some support. 

[Samcric]

47 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Lol are you 18? Did you see zaheer bowl when he was below 30 ?

You missed the point which is that he didn't need to be a 140K bowler to be successful during 2007 to 2010 (when he was at his peak).

 

And yes, I was as elated as, perhaps, you when Steve Waugh was bowled by the Zaheer Khan yorker in ICC trophy in Nairobi in 2000 and India had found its first 90mph bowler (I am sure Srinath would have bowled more than 90mph at his peak but never saw it on a speed gun).