Guess who gets dropped

[Cricketics]

Bhuvi is hard done again. I wish he would have played. Needed few games. Tired of rooting for him and debating about him here with Umesh fanatics and then he doesn't get a game. I am glad he is not thrown out of the squad and is in mix of things unlike under Dhoni/Shastri set up.

 

I honestly do not know who to blame for Bhuvi not playing, weather it is Kumble or Kohli. We won't have any idea, but together they need to realize that they have to use Bhuvi more. He is better than Umesh Yadav any day, and of course better than Ishant.

 

No harm in trying Ishant since this is dead rubber and he sat out for a while, but we could have seriously used Bhuvi here.

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, Texan said:

Has he got opportunity to play in unfavorable conditions? How has Umesh fared in unfavorable conditions? How has Ishant fared in unfavorable conditions? You are talking as though Umesh and Ishant are match-winners on pattas. We do not know about all those you think are talented from FC cricket just like we do not know if Pant is a good Test keeper.

You are not getting it...the captain and the coach does not want to play a medium pacer unless there is swing on offer.

 

As simple as that.

 

How does it matter what  I think  ?   It is immaterial  if  I am completely wrong in my assessment about who should play and who should not.

 

We take ourselves too seriously while posting on  cricket forums.

Edited December 16, 2016 by express bowling

[MCcricket]

Bombay Track was ok not bad, also it's good for BK he is played selectively as a track like Chepauk would make him look like a part timer, it's wise from Kohli n Mumble not to make same mistake again as Bombay also few games on normal tracks would ultimately make him look bad n he would be dropped from the squad .

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

You are not getting it...the captain and the coach does not want to play a medium pacer unless there is swing on offer.

 

As simple as that.

 

How does it matter what  I think  ?   It is immaterial  if  I am completely wrong in my assessment about who should play and who should not.

 

We take ourselves too seriously while posting on  cricket forums.

But that is unfair on both the bowlers. You play one bowler in bowling friendly conditions and drop him in unfriendly conditions, so, he is not able to prove if he can do well in unfriendly conditions too. And the other bowler keeps playing on unfriendly conditions and not getting to play in bowling friendly conditions. He is suffering on both counts.

[BeautifulGame]

But that is unfair on both the bowlers. You play one bowler in bowling friendly conditions and drop him in unfriendly conditions, so, he is not able to prove if he can do well in unfriendly conditions too. And the other bowler keeps playing on unfriendly conditions and not getting to play in bowling friendly conditions. He is suffering on both counts.

Tbf on bowler friendly conditions we have space for both if they are good enough.

Problem is Umesh Yadav even struggles on them like he did it Srilanka .

[Lannister]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

But that is unfair on both the bowlers. You play one bowler in bowling friendly conditions and drop him in unfriendly conditions, so, he is not able to prove if he can do well in unfriendly conditions too. And the other bowler keeps playing on unfriendly conditions and not getting to play in bowling friendly conditions. He is suffering on both counts.

That is more to do with Indian pitches. You can only play 2 pacers max as you will need to accommodate spinners too. In overseas tours, they will all get their opportunities. 

[express bowling]

On 12/16/2016 at 1:11 PM, rkt.india said:

But that is unfair on both the bowlers. You play one bowler in bowling friendly conditions and drop him in unfriendly conditions, so, he is not able to prove if he can do well in unfriendly conditions too. And the other bowler keeps playing on unfriendly conditions and not getting to play in bowling friendly conditions. He is suffering on both counts.

True...but what can we do  ?

 

Umesh took 5 wickets on the only greenish track he played this year....in Antigua.....but missed out on the 2 other helpful conditions in Gros Islet and Kolkata......only played on pattas after that.

 

Similarly, Bhuvi will lose confidence as he is unable to play even after taking 2 fifers in 4 test matches he has played this year.  He is not being tested on flat pitches too.

 

This basically shows that Kohli does not have confidence in either Umesh or Bhuvi....and should look to develop a couple of new all-condition pacers.

Edited December 18, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Tbf on bowler friendly conditions we have space for both if they are good enough.

 

Shami and Ishant will be our first 2 seamers.  Kohli clearly said so in WI.

 

Means. only one of Umesh and BK will play unless there is some injury concern.

Edited December 16, 2016 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

47 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Thing is....Bhuvi has got success in tests whenever the playing conditions have favoured conventional swing.  He was specifically chosen for many test matches.  

 

And I see that happening again...whenever  swing is expected....Bhuvi will play.

 

What we need to do is....look for new fast bowlers among the uncapped lot....to see if there are quick bowlers with better skills than Umesh....I strongly think that there are.

 

 

I'd rather play a guy who is no good on unresponsive pitches & successful one on pitches that suit him versus a guy who is no good on any kind of pitch. 

While we may need more pace bowlers, our frontline isn't fully settled yet. Bhuvi himself got back from injury, so did Shami, Ishant had his fitness issues recently as well and Umesh is just a poor man's Patrick Patterson (looks fast, bowls the occasional magic balls but doesnt know/cant do the basic of building pressure). 

The pecking order should be:

Shami

Bhuvi

Ishant

Aaron**

Umesh**

 

**: Umesh should be below Aaron in the pecking order given his hopeless form currently. 

 

This core has to settle/regain its confidence before it can be expected to carry the burden of a total newbie. So i understand not blooding a new guy. But under no circumstance does Umesh deserve to be in the team over Bhuvi. I don't care if the pitch is a trampoline, Umesh is simply not a good bowler, period. 

 

[rkt.india]

13 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Tbf on bowler friendly conditions we have space for both if they are good enough.

Problem is Umesh Yadav even struggles on them like he did it Srilanka .

Not really, that was just one off game. The way he has bowled in this series, he would certainly do well if gets to bowl on such a pitch. Also, he has played only 3 tests on a pitch like that in his career. Two test in Aus 2012 at MCG and Perth where he took 12 wickets and 3rd test in SL where he bowled poorly, but the way he has bowled in this series has been completely different. He has barely bowled lose balls and has always stayed in the game, keeping batsmen honest despite drops and unrewarding efforts.

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, Lannister said:

That is more to do with Indian pitches. You can only play 2 pacers max as you will need to accommodate spinners too. In overseas tours, they will all get their opportunities. 

Dont think Umesh is going to get many games overseas. Despite a match winning effort in Delhi against SA and 5 wickets against WI in first test, it was him who was dropped for Boobie. No one made a thread like this back then about Umesh that he got dropped despite doing well in 2 out of the last 3 tests he played. Overseas, it will mostly be Shami, Boobie, Ishant as the 3 main seamers. They might replace him for Boobie overseas if pitch is a patta.

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I'd rather play a guy who is no good on unresponsive pitches & successful one on pitches that suit him versus a guy who is no good on any kind of pitch. 

While we may need more pace bowlers, our frontline isn't fully settled yet. Bhuvi himself got back from injury, so did Shami, Ishant had his fitness issues recently as well and Umesh is just a poor man's Patrick Patterson (looks fast, bowls the occasional magic balls but doesnt know/cant do the basic of building pressure). 

The pecking order should be:

Shami

Bhuvi

Ishant

Aaron**

Umesh**

 

**: Umesh should be below Aaron in the pecking order given his hopeless form currently. 

 

This core has to settle/regain its confidence before it can be expected to carry the burden of a total newbie. So i understand not blooding a new guy. But under no circumstance does Umesh deserve to be in the team over Bhuvi. I don't care if the pitch is a trampoline, Umesh is simply not a good bowler, period. 

 

what hopeless form? Stats do not tell the whole story if you have watched the series. There is a reason Kohli is still playing him, the reason is he has not bowled badly, several catches dropped too. Regarding doing well on helpful pitches, he has not played much on such pitches in his career, only 3 tests and has 13 wickets in those.

[express bowling]

25 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I'd rather play a guy who is no good on unresponsive pitches & successful one on pitches that suit him versus a guy who is no good on any kind of pitch. 

While we may need more pace bowlers, our frontline isn't fully settled yet. Bhuvi himself got back from injury, so did Shami, Ishant had his fitness issues recently as well and Umesh is just a poor man's Patrick Patterson (looks fast, bowls the occasional magic balls but doesnt know/cant do the basic of building pressure). 

The pecking order should be:

Shami

Bhuvi

Ishant

Aaron**

Umesh**

 

**: Umesh should be below Aaron in the pecking order given his hopeless form currently. 

 

This core has to settle/regain its confidence before it can be expected to carry the burden of a total newbie. So i understand not blooding a new guy. But under no circumstance does Umesh deserve to be in the team over Bhuvi. I don't care if the pitch is a trampoline, Umesh is simply not a good bowler, period. 

 

 

The point I  am trying to make in this thread is the importance of having the confidence of the captain and the coach.....for a player to flourish in international cricket.

 

We can fill pages discussing what should be and all that.....but the reality has to be considered too.

 

In test matches, captains generally don't feel confident playing short  medium pacers unless they are sure that there will be a lot of movement throughout the test match.....no amount of debate by us will change that.

 

The team management has confidence in only Shami and  Ishant....the others are basically horses for courses  seamers.  

 

Look at a seamer like Praveen Kumar....he averaged 25 in test matches but has played only 6  tests.   Do you think it would have happened if Dhoni had confidence in his abilities  ?  Who were the seamers that were setting the world on fire then ?

Edited December 16, 2016 by express bowling

[Lannister]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Dont think Umesh is going to get many games overseas. Despite a match winning effort in Delhi against SA and 5 wickets against WI in first test, it was him who was dropped for Boobie. No one made a thread like this back then about Umesh that he got dropped despite doing well in 2 out of the last 3 tests he played. Overseas, it will mostly be Shami, Boobie, Ishant as the 3 main seamers. They might replace him for Boobie overseas if pitch is a patta.

Seems pretty harsh on Yadav. I wonder how he still keeps himself motivated. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, rkt.india said:

Dont think Umesh is going to get many games overseas. Despite a match winning effort in Delhi against SA and 5 wickets against WI in first test, it was him who was dropped for Boobie. No one made a thread like this back then about Umesh that he got dropped despite doing well in 2 out of the last 3 tests he played. Overseas, it will mostly be Shami, Boobie, Ishant as the 3 main seamers. They might replace him for Boobie overseas if pitch is a patta.

Even then, it doesnt make sense to replace Bhuvi with Umesh. 

Lets see what type of bowlers they all are:

Shami : Fast when he is fit & on form, does have stamina issues, has lots of skill & excellent seam bowling. Skiddy type of fast. Mostly in the medium fast spectrum. Can reverse pretty decently.

 

Ishant : Doesn't have much skill, bowls at fast-isn medium pace, has height & thus good bounce, can be effective if he gets his length right. Which he mostly fails at. But there is hope- he is still not too old to learn how to bowl smartly & within his limits. 

 

Bhuvi : classic medium pace guy with very good control,big banana moment on the pitch & good movement off it too. Only problem is, he isn't fast & lacks a good bouncer. 

 

Umesh : Classic 'just cant keep it together for more than 5 deliveries at a time' guy. Looks good. Has almost all the tools. His best balls are simply magic. Bowled at 140-144 kph range, they swing, they spit viciously off the pitch and knock off a stump or catch them plumb. problem is, he just cannot keep it together! Period. Thats not his fault, i suspect Umesh is bowling at his 'full limit' of his action & thus, suffers from the 'always going for too much' syndrome. He an be good. But only if he is the 3rd pacer.

 

Aaron : Less developed than Umesh, so perhaps even more of a faint hope clause. Is a basket case of injuries. So hope is not very high here.

 

 

In such a setup, it doesnt make too much sense to play Umesh, especially on the bowler's relative current forms as well. 

Might as well get a mix of all 3 in the Shami-Bhuvi-Ishant combo. 

But yes, we need to develop one more because except the top 3, its not looking good for pace bowling in India.

Its easier said than done- if bowlers are not developed to bowl fast, but also well in their formative years, they just never master the skills necessary to make them the best bowlers they are capable of. 

 

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

Umesh : Classic 'just cant keep it together for more than 5 deliveries at a time' guy. Looks good. Has almost all the tools. His best balls are simply magic. Bowled at 140-144 kph range, they swing, they spit viciously off the pitch and knock off a stump or catch them plumb. problem is, he just cannot keep it together! Period. Thats not his fault, i suspect Umesh is bowling at his 'full limit' of his action & thus, suffers from the 'always going for too much' syndrome. He an be good. But only if he is the 3rd pacer.

 

 

A do not think pace has much to do with his inconsistency because he becomes even more inconsistent when he drops his pace. Actually, this series, he has been really improved in terms of consistency and his figures would have been completely different if most of the catches dropped on his bowling had been taken. He has more drop catches than the wickets he has in this series.

[Cricketics]

 

There are two ways of looking at the whole Umesh situation. I love that Kohli is honestly backing him. Something which Dhoni tried all the time but was impatient and then Dhoni used to forget that he needs to have patience and support the bowler. That way, Kohli deserves credit to sticking to Umesh and giving him time. He has surely improved under him as he feels more confident.

 

Now, other way is that Umesh has bowled a lot in this series, it would have been ideal to try someone like Bhuvi. I can't blame Kohli completely, because of the support he is trying to show for the fast bowlers, but Bhuvi had to play this test match.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

 Actually, this series, he has been really improved in terms of consistency and his figures would have been completely different if most of the catches dropped on his bowling had been taken. He has more drop catches than the wickets he has in this series.

Yes.....even Dhoni played Umesh in all the ODIs against NZ  in place of the supposedly more accurate Dhawal Kulkarni.  Would not have happened if Umesh were spraying the ball around.

[Forever Indian]

20 minutes ago, Lannister said:

Seems pretty harsh on Yadav. I wonder how he still keeps himself motivated. 

The same way Bhuvi will have to keep himself motivated.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Forever Indian

[Muloghonto]

17 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

what hopeless form? Stats do not tell the whole story if you have watched the series. There is a reason Kohli is still playing him, the reason is he has not bowled badly, several catches dropped too. Regarding doing well on helpful pitches, he has not played much on such pitches in his career, only 3 tests and has 13 wickets in those.

I disagree. Its pretty clear that he has been bowling badly and been unlucky too. Sure, catches were dropped. But he is the bowler who is almost always leaking runs the fastest but not taking wickets consistently enough to matter. This is what happens when you have a decent magic ball specialist - he looks good for a delivery or two every over. but then he bowls a crap ball. Like, total crap. Boom. Four.  He just cannot build pressure. And that type of bowler, i don't think is successful in an attack without a ATG-esque presence or atleast couple of world class performers to buttress the seam attack. Ishant & Shami are not those two.

So really- we don't gain much by bowling a guy, who is a liability 3/4 times he bowls, when that 1/4th isn't 'Oh he just got a 15-5-45-6 type of innings'. 

 

You forget, on almost all pitches, except maybe Aussie roads, Bhuvi is good for the first 15 overs atleast. He will, unlike Umesh, most likely either keep the batsmen quiet or take a couple of critical wickets. He also can finish the tail decently. 

 

As per what Kohli wants, sure. I don't doubt that playing Umesh is more likely for Kohli on dead pitches. But we are after all discussing a hypothetical here : merits/demerits of a drop.

Not to mention, when we discuss overseas, the fact that Bhuvi can actually hold a bat decently, massively factors in elongating the Indian tail, too.

 

So Why no Bhuvi, just doesnt make sense.

 

If we want to field a bowling attack of 5 bowlers overseas, then a combo of :

Ashwin-<Wicket Keeper>-Jadeja/Jayant-Bhuvi-Shami-Ishant isn't the best batting & bowling best case scenarios more often than not.