Forever Indian Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) I just hope we do not develop another 'Unlucky' bowler like Ishant who has taken like 8 years to develop into a decent enough bowler. It is not as if this is the first series our fielders have been dropping catches. Shami has got 13 wickets in 3 matches despite a lot of drops. Bhuvi had to get wickets 8 times in order to end up with a fiver in WI, due to our drop catches. Edited December 16, 2016 by Forever Indian Texan and sscomp32 2 Link to comment
MCcricket Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 14 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: I disagree. Its pretty clear that he has been bowling badly and been unlucky too. Sure, catches were dropped. But he is the bowler who is almost always leaking runs the fastest but not taking wickets consistently enough to matter. This is what happens when you have a decent magic ball specialist - he looks good for a delivery or two every over. but then he bowls a crap ball. Like, total crap. Boom. Four. He just cannot build pressure. And that type of bowler, i don't think is successful in an attack without a ATG-esque presence or atleast couple of world class performers to buttress the seam attack. Ishant & Shami are not those two. So really- we don't gain much by bowling a guy, who is a liability 3/4 times he bowls, when that 1/4th isn't 'Oh he just got a 15-5-45-6 type of innings'. You forget, on almost all pitches, except maybe Aussie roads, Bhuvi is good for the first 15 overs atleast. He will, unlike Umesh, most likely either keep the batsmen quiet or take a couple of critical wickets. He also can finish the tail decently. As per what Kohli wants, sure. I don't doubt that playing Umesh is more likely for Kohli on dead pitches. But we are after all discussing a hypothetical here : merits/demerits of a drop. Not to mention, when we discuss overseas, the fact that Bhuvi can actually hold a bat decently, massively factors in elongating the Indian tail, too. So Why no Bhuvi, just doesnt make sense. If we want to field a bowling attack of 5 bowlers overseas, then a combo of : Ashwin-<Wicket Keeper>-Jadeja/Jayant-Bhuvi-Shami-Ishant isn't the best batting & bowling best case scenarios more often than not. Shami is one Bowler who bowls mid 140 to low 130 all day so where is the question here about stamina, lol , also he just had one serious injury till date. Infact it is Bhuvi who is a medium pacer who has stamina issues n just bowls first few overs at mid 130 S then goes to low 120s. New guy and express bowling 1 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 13 minutes ago, MCcricket said: Shami is one Bowler who bowls mid 140 to low 130 all day so where is the question here about stamina, lol , also he just had one serious injury till date. Infact it is Bhuvi who is a medium pacer who has stamina issues n just bowls first few overs at mid 130 S then goes to low 120s. I guess, you mean high 130s One impressive thing about Shami is that he is able to retain his pace and bounce even when he is carrying a niggle. We saw that in this test series as well as the WC 15 when he had his only major injury but still finished the WC without dropping eiher pace or skill. Mosher and Cricketics 2 Link to comment
Forever Indian Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, express bowling said: I guess, you mean high 130s One impressive thing about Shami is that he is able to retain his pace and bounce even when he is carrying a niggle. We saw that in this test series as well as the WC 15 when he had his only major injury but still finished the WC without dropping eiher pace or skill. We need one more bowler like Shami, ideally a leftie version. Similar to how spinners bowl well in tandem I think Shami will be an even better bowler if there is another tight bowler bowling at the other end. express bowling 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, Forever Indian said: We need one more bowler like Shami, ideally a leftie version. Similar to how spinners bowl well in tandem I think Shami will be an even better bowler if there is another tight bowler bowling at the other end. Ideally, we need 2 more such fast bowlers, to cover for injuries. Time to look for new talent immediately, because it takes time to groom them. Link to comment
New guy Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 So how many wickets did the speed demon take today tweaker, beetle, Cricketics and 1 other 4 Link to comment
New guy Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, MCcricket said: Shami is one Bowler who bowls mid 140 to low 130 all day so where is the question here about stamina, lol , also he just had one serious injury till date. Infact it is Bhuvi who is a medium pacer who has stamina issues n just bowls first few overs at mid 130 S then goes to low 120s. So when was the last time Shami had to bowl 8-10 overs at a stretch?. It is hilarious you talk about Bhuvi's lack of stamina, completely ignoring that bowlers bowl consistent pace when they get 4-5 over spells. If you bowl any bowler for 8-10 overs at a stretch his next spell will be slower. People start complaining with Yadv gets more than 5 overs saying he is underbowled but Bhuvi bowling 8-10 overs is ignored Edited December 16, 2016 by New guy sscomp32, Muloghonto and beetle 3 Link to comment
sscomp32 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 9 hours ago, New guy said: Bhuvi has been really unlucky, either injured and then he got the worst pitch for seamers in this series in Mumbai. Also, Yadav has been givn so many chances and has been really average Having said that, the way Kohli has been winning so many matches, I would trust his judgement over mine. He clearly has a plan for pacers and believes in fast bowling. Experimenting in a dead rubber is not wrong. I just hope Yadav does something to justify his trust The one reason i am not that angry. Of Course i want to see bhuvi but more than that i want india to win matches even if i have to tolerate the laadla for few years. Link to comment
Texan Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 6 hours ago, express bowling said: Yes.....even Dhoni played Umesh in all the ODIs against NZ in place of the supposedly more accurate Dhawal Kulkarni. Would not have happened if Umesh were spraying the ball around. In ODIs this year, Umesh's economy rate is 6.5 and bowling average is 39. sscomp32 and Cricketics 2 Link to comment
Texan Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 4 hours ago, New guy said: So how many wickets did the speed demon take today Why do we need wickets - remind me please. Qualifications only ask for bowling 140. He did that pretty well. New guy, sscomp32 and beetle 3 Link to comment
maniac Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, Texan said: In ODIs this year, Umesh's economy rate is 6.5 and bowling average is 39. Did you watch the game yesterday? Umesh was producing wicket taking delivery in pretty much every over.......Bhuvi is good but after the first 5 overs is pretty much toothless. Yes Yadav needs 'STATS' to back it up,right now he is in that Ishant zone circa 2012-2013 where he bowls probing spells but not able to break through with that wicket Tibarn and beetle 1 1 Link to comment
New guy Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, maniac said: Did you watch the game yesterday? Umesh was producing wicket taking delivery in pretty much every over.......Bhuvi is good but after the first 5 overs is pretty much toothless. Yes Yadav needs 'STATS' to back it up,right now he is in that Ishant zone circa 2012-2013 where he bowls probing spells but not able to break through with that wicket This toothless after 5 overs argument has been bunk for over a year now. You dont take 5-fers in the first 5 overs, to take 5-fer you have to bowl well throughout the match. . Bhuvi even reverse swings now. If you followed any of the series he played in this year you will know its not true Yadav has looked good and beat the bat without taking wickets his entire career now. Why is "stats" in quotes? A bowler averaging 56 is as good as a batsman getting out in single digits every match Edited December 16, 2016 by New guy sscomp32, beetle and Texan 3 Link to comment
Texan Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 6 hours ago, Forever Indian said: I just hope we do not develop another 'Unlucky' bowler like Ishant who has taken like 8 years to develop into a decent enough bowler. It is not as if this is the first series our fielders have been dropping catches. Shami has got 13 wickets in 3 matches despite a lot of drops. Bhuvi had to get wickets 8 times in order to end up with a fiver in WI, due to our drop catches. Exactly. This unlucky thing is what we saw with Ishant first and now we are seeing this same thing being repeated with Umesh. Reminds me of this Pakistani fast bowler called Mohd Sami. He had all the ingredients of a fast bowler, was probably even more skilled than Umesh, had a mean yorker, reverse swing, traditional swing and seam and pace. It seemed for a while that he was going to be the next great Pakistani fast bowler. Yet he was not successful because he just could not land the ball in the right areas consistently enough. People have to realize that bowling 5 decent balls is not good enough if your sixth ball is going to be a wide half volley or wide short ball. It is more important to see how a bowler can consistently hit the right areas and maintain pressure. putrevus and sscomp32 2 Link to comment
maniac Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Just now, New guy said: This toothless after 5 overs argument has been bunk for over a year now. Bhuvi even reverse swings now. If you followed any of the series he played in this year you will know its not true Yadav has looked good and beat the bat without taking wickets his entire career now Basic tenet of reverse swing is you need pace.....likes of Wasim Akram or even Zaheer Khan who were not express but 135 range bowlers used to up their pace to 140's when the ball was reversing....Steyn bowls in the 130's when there is conventional swing but can take his pace upto 150's when there is reverse on offer. I am sure a lot of club level bowlers too know the basic theory of reversing the ball(not calling Bhuvi that) Bhuvi just can't sustain that to take advantage of reverse swing...firstly his pace is down by his 2nd spell and if the ball is reversing(assuming no zip,bottle caps and mint is involved) it is usually during 3rd or 4th spell and I don't think Bhuvi can hit 130's in those spells let alone 140- or 150. Not putting him down by any means,when the ball is swinging,he is like a poetry in motion,a gun swing bowler as good as Anderson with the new ball on a conducive pitch. express bowling 1 Link to comment
maniac Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Did anyone see the FSK test when South Africa where dead batting everything...bowlers like Umesh make things happen that is the prime example,if you look at stats even in that game,it wasn't anything out of the world,but little things like that make a difference. Link to comment
maniac Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Also @New guy the theory of taking 5 wicket hauls by bowling throughout is also not a valid argument......Even in tests where he took 5 wickets,it was A) Swing which we already established he is really good at and B)Pressure created by SPinners and other fast bowlers from the other end. Link to comment
Texan Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 7 minutes ago, maniac said: Basic tenet of reverse swing is you need pace.....likes of Wasim Akram or even Zaheer Khan who were not express but 135 range bowlers used to up their pace to 140's when the ball was reversing....Steyn bowls in the 130's when there is conventional swing but can take his pace upto 150's when there is reverse on offer. I am sure a lot of club level bowlers too know the basic theory of reversing the ball(not calling Bhuvi that) Bhuvi just can't sustain that to take advantage of reverse swing...firstly his pace is down by his 2nd spell and if the ball is reversing(assuming no zip,bottle caps and mint is involved) it is usually during 3rd or 4th spell and I don't think Bhuvi can hit 130's in those spells let alone 140- or 150. Not putting him down by any means,when the ball is swinging,he is like a poetry in motion,a gun swing bowler as good as Anderson with the new ball on a conducive pitch. Not necessary. I have seen even Irfan Pathan bowling at 130, bowl a reverse swinging yorker to Gilchrist that knocked out his middle stump. If you can swing it late, even pace of 130 suffices. sscomp32 1 Link to comment
BeautifulGame Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Did anyone see the FSK test when South Africa where dead batting everything...bowlers like Umesh make things happen that is the prime example,if you look at stats even in that game,it wasn't anything out of the world,but little things like that make a difference. It was Ashwin and Jadeja who made things happen in that test .The way some are going on about that spell u would think Umesh he took out both Amma and De Villiers . Umesh took one decent wicket in their keeper (who is pretty much useless with the bat ) and couple of tail enders . Umesh is generally decent when it helps reverse swing and pitch has low bounce with his slingy action (His best match in India probably was that 1st test against England 2012). Just like when Bhuvi makes things happen when it is swinging , Umesh makes things happen when it is reverse swinging .It wasn't something out of world as u seem to describe . But the actual difference in when it is helpful to his bowling Bhuvi actually looks world class , runs through sides and wins you games .But even on a wicket that was actually suited to him, Umesh at best looks decent and never looks capable of running through a side or a match winner . Cricketics, beetle and sscomp32 3 Link to comment
maniac Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said: It was Ashwin and Jadeja who made things happen in that test .The way some are going on about that spell u would think Umesh he took out both Amma and De Villiers . Umesh took one decent wicket in their keeper (who is pretty much useless with the bat ) and couple of tail enders . Umesh is generally decent when it helps reverse swing and pitch has low bounce with his slingy action (His best match in India probably was that 1st test against England 2012). Just like when Bhuvi makes things happen when it is swinging , Umesh makes things happen when it is reverse swinging .It wasn't something out of world as u seem to describe . But the actual difference in when it is helpful to his bowling Bhuvi actually looks world class , runs through sides and wins you games .But even on a wicket that was actually suited to him, Umesh at best looks decent and never looks capable of running through a side or a match winner . How many games has Umesh played in South Africa,England,Newzealand? He played in Australia where he too has a 5wkt and 4 wkt haul when our entire bowling unit sucked collectively. express bowling 1 Link to comment
Texan Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 That spell against SA was also in conditions that tend to suit Umesh's bowling. SA batsmen were looking to dead bat everything, so Umesh did not have to worry about leaking runs and even any bad balls that he bowled were not put away for any runs. Those kind of conditions are rare to encounter in Tests. Most teams are not going to look at dead batting everything, especially after neither SA nor England were successful in saving a Test in that manner. sscomp32 1 Link to comment
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