Rishabh Pant: A few thoughts

[Muloghonto]

1. It is undeniable that Pant is displaying a 'rare, undeniably aggressive & successful' batting talent. That he will likely be a good-to-great batsman, is a distinct possibiilty.

 

2. Pant has kept wickets at the lower levels he's competed in, as well as the top levels he's played in so far. Now that itself is highly promising : he is not a 'late teen/early 20s transition to keeping'. Which means he probably posesses good fundamentals.

 

3. It was reported that the reason Pant kept in the U-20s is because Kishan is a much better outfielder than him- that doesn't mean he is also that much better than Kishan in keeping, but could be.  

I think we have a once-in-a-century opportunity with Pant, lets not waste it by rushing the kid.

Even if he is played soon at international level, i hope, for his sake, the team management plays him in half a dozen or less international matches, all in the shorter format- to see what he's got. 
The next two years should be the 'assess + develop' picture, not fast track him- especially in the test department.

This is because keeping is not very well understood by most fans- its a tough & specialized job in itself. Which is why 90% of keepers don't end up being anything more than 'can score a quick few or hang around with limited stroke play' guys. 
Having the fundamentals is not enough- you also need the body-strength & physical maturity to be able to handle keeping for a whole day without mistake.

Repetition, muscle memory, reading balls- developing the fitness above all, is what takes the longest. 

If we rush him, IMO we are more likely to get a Kamran Akmal type than Gilchrist or Dhoni type.

Also please remember, if cricket is a team war, then keeper is undeniably the drummer of the war party. He drives the beat. he keeps the morale. He chirps.

Keeping is a mentally taxing job too- which is often times why many keepers can look exhausted/deflated on a particular day too when batting. 

It is not enough to have a mediocre keeper who can bat very well. A Veeru with the bat who can keep like Akmal. We are a batting powerhouse. In tests, we are going to be just fine in #3-8 batting for the future, with or without Pant. Yes, Pant can be the elusive #6 who can keep very well, almost perfect positional needs. Eventually. 

If we expect a 12-15 year of excellence, we should give the kid the next 2-3 years to develop and atleast realize his true potential.

To give an idea, 2-3 years from now, he'd be 22-23 and if he went on to have  a career like Gillchrist, we are looking at 500+ catches in both formats easily and 10K+ runs in both formats too. 
 

So please,lets have patience with the guy.

 

[Ultimate_Game]

IMO I would play Pant purely as a batsman in shorter formats the same way Aussies went with Gilchrist when Healy was still around. I mean I would rather have Pant in the batting lineup ahead of Rahane & Yuvraj. Eventually he can take over from Dhoni and also take over the wkt keeper role in Tests.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

IMO I would play Pant purely as a batsman in shorter formats the same way Aussies went with Gilchrist when Healy was still around. I mean I would rather have Pant in the batting lineup ahead of Rahane & Yuvraj. Eventually he can take over from Dhoni and also take over the wkt keeper role in Tests.

But the big difference is, Gilly was in his mid 20s when he played as batsman only for the Aussies. Meaning 6-7 years of reinforcing his technique, strength, etc. for the long haul in FC cricket. Pant is 19-20. 

 

My problem with fast-tracking Pant is that we are taking away that developmental training period in his career. He needs to put in the hours in the longer format to develop his technique, strength & stamina. Which means lots of Ranji. Ranji isn't just an audition to an aspiring wicketkeeper. Not like a bowler or a batsman. Ranji is the forge of the wicketkeeper. It makes keeper. because it is the only way Keepers get to keep to good quality bowling for days at a time in match condition. 

Give the kid his fair share of developing his craft before blooding him too young.

 

[sandeep]

Words of wisdom.  But for impatient fans who want to win every game, and want an all-star at every spot in the XI, and that too yesterday, they are not interested in giving Panth an opportunity to max out his potential and development, or long-term team interests over short term entertainment.  They are more interested in pant-gasming when he tonks a few boundaries in some meaningless game.  

[Ultimate_Game]

16 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

But the big difference is, Gilly was in his mid 20s when he played as batsman only for the Aussies. Meaning 6-7 years of reinforcing his technique, strength, etc. for the long haul in FC cricket. Pant is 19-20. 

 

My problem with fast-tracking Pant is that we are taking away that developmental training period in his career. He needs to put in the hours in the longer format to develop his technique, strength & stamina. Which means lots of Ranji. Ranji isn't just an audition to an aspiring wicketkeeper. Not like a bowler or a batsman. Ranji is the forge of the wicketkeeper. It makes keeper. because it is the only way Keepers get to keep to good quality bowling for days at a time in match condition. 

Give the kid his fair share of developing his craft before blooding him too young.

 

The problem with sending him back to FC cricket and letting him mature is that our system is not as mature as Australia's. Aus can send Gilchrist or their youngsters back to their FC system and keep an eye on them till they mature. Ours is a cesspool and TBH I would rather someone like Pant is kept under wings in the national team rather than being sent back to FC cricket where he will be left to his own devices. That option is too risky and I wouldn't want Pant to be mishandled by local coaches and state associations. Kepp him in the squad, manage his workload and bring him along. If we can find a spot for the likes of Rahane and Yuvraj in the odi team, I'm sure we can do so for Pant as well.

[maniac]

@Muloghonto How would you judge if someone is ready or not or how would you know what the ideal time frame is?

 

Would Mike Hussey be successful had he debuted as a 16-18 year old?

 

Would Sachin have the same impact if he debuted as a 25 year old?

 

Let us say if Pant goes back into domestics,will that guarantee that he will never ever drop a catch again when he makes international debut? what if his batting regresses by that point playing domestic trundlers or playing too much IPL.

 

You pull the trigger when you see someone is ready regardless of age...the kid is 80% there...seems to be good enough to keep for his domestic side and was the primary keeper in the country at junior level,in the midst of a purple patch.

 

Would be a huge waste if we let this one slip through or hands(no pun intended)

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by maniac

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

The problem with sending him back to FC cricket and letting him mature is that our system is not as mature as Australia's. Aus can send Gilchrist or their youngsters back to their FC system and keep an eye on them till they mature. Ours is a cesspool and TBH I would rather someone like Pant is kept under wings in the national team rather than being sent back to FC cricket where he will be left to his own devices. That option is too risky and I wouldn't want Pant to be mishandled by local coaches and state associations. Kepp him in the squad, manage his workload and bring him along. If we can find a spot for the likes of Rahane and Yuvraj in the odi team, I'm sure we can do so for Pant as well.

That was the logic used to keep Parthiv with the national team, thinking he will develop well enough with the national team.  We all know how that went.  Developing 'Keepers need time and space to work on their craft away from the spotlight - so they can have bad days at a lower level and keep focused on improvement without it putting a big dent on their psyche.  

 

You never know, maybe Panth is athletic enough to keep developing and maintain a high standard - follow in Dhoni's footsteps - MS was never that great a keeper, but he was solid.  He had a lot of question marks on his wicket keeping when he first made the team - got better and held his own, purely out of his athleticsm, hard work and mental toughness.  Not all can do that in the face of sustained pressure and spotlight - unfair to pick on Party Patel, but he's the best example of this. He was unable to handle it, got the 'keeping version of the yips really, and was never the same again.  

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

That was the logic used to keep Parthiv with the national team, thinking he will develop well enough with the national team.  We all know how that went.  Developing 'Keepers need time and space to work on their craft away from the spotlight - so they can have bad days at a lower level and keep focused on improvement without it putting a big dent on their psyche.  

 

You never know, maybe Panth is athletic enough to keep developing and maintain a high standard - follow in Dhoni's footsteps - MS was never that great a keeper, but he was solid.  He had a lot of question marks on his wicket keeping when he first made the team - got better and held his own, purely out of his athleticsm, hard work and mental toughness.  Not all can do that in the face of sustained pressure and spotlight - unfair to pick on Party Patel, but he's the best example of this. He was unable to handle it, got the 'keeping version of the yips really, and was never the same again.  

Dhoni was fit and strong no doubt...but not agile....never seen him go for catches in the 1st slip which every good keeper must....another reason for our pathetic slip catching trend.

 

But yes was the best among the lot

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

That was the logic used to keep Parthiv with the national team, thinking he will develop well enough with the national team.  We all know how that went.  Developing 'Keepers need time and space to work on their craft away from the spotlight - so they can have bad days at a lower level and keep focused on improvement without it putting a big dent on their psyche.  

 

You never know, maybe Panth is athletic enough to keep developing and maintain a high standard - follow in Dhoni's footsteps - MS was never that great a keeper, but he was solid.  He had a lot of question marks on his wicket keeping when he first made the team - got better and held his own, purely out of his athleticsm, hard work and mental toughness.  Not all can do that in the face of sustained pressure and spotlight - unfair to pick on Party Patel, but he's the best example of this. He was unable to handle it, got the 'keeping version of the yips really, and was never the same again.  

We sent Parthiv back to the domestic system in mid 2000s and i didn't see much improvement. In fact I don't have an example of a player who was sent back to the domestic system and came back better. I don't want Pant to regress and his talent to be wasted. I would have him in the national setup and send him on A tours but not send him back to domestic cricket for the next 2-3 years hoping he would "mature" and leaving him to his own devices.

[maniac]

The insecurity of a few posters for Dhoni who has millions of dollars in his bank account is really amazing.

 

Can these geniuses explain what is the time frame and how long should one work in domestics before they are "apparently" ready

 

With Pandya sure people had apprehensions because here was a guy with all the right tools that check all the boxes but didn't do anything to stand out at a competitive level with the bat or ball...he has done well in the chances he has been given and good that he is part of the system now.

 

on the other hand here is Pant a guy who is turning heads...racing ahead of the competition and people want him to prove himself.

 

Bizzare

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

We sent Parthiv back to the domestic system in mid 2000s and i didn't see much improvement. In fact I don't have an example of a player who was sent back to the domestic system and came back better. I don't want Pant to regress and his talent to be wasted. I would have him in the national setup and send him on A tours but not send him back to domestic cricket for the next 2-3 years hoping he would "mature" and leaving him to his own devices.

I'd argue that Parthiv was sent too late to FC - after the damage was already done.  Its the formative years that 'keepers need to be protected and not thrown into the fire.  But again, this debate is like pissing in the wind, on both sides.  Fans don't really know what Rishabh's proficiency levels are with the gloves, or what is best for his development at this point in time.  We can only hope that Kumble, the selectors etc do know and make the right call on this, without letting non-cricket factors get in the way.  Very easy for players, or state associations, or IPL teams to want to push players before they are ready, in pursuit of the almighty $$$.

 

 

7 minutes ago, maniac said:

Dhoni was fit and strong no doubt...but not agile....never seen him go for catches in the 1st slip which every good keeper must....another reason for our pathetic slip catching trend.

 

But yes was the best among the lot

No question, Dhoni was nowhere near the best keeper, had/has share of flaws.  But as you admit, best of the lot, and also most improved.  Great example of how a guy made the most out of his abilities, driven by work ethic and mental strength.  

[Ultimate_Game]

9 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I'd argue that Parthiv was sent too late to FC - after the damage was already done.  Its the formative years that 'keepers need to be protected and not thrown into the fire.  But again, this debate is like pissing in the wind, on both sides.  Fans don't really know what Rishabh's proficiency levels are with the gloves, or what is best for his development at this point in time.  We can only hope that Kumble, the selectors etc do know and make the right call on this, without letting non-cricket factors get in the way.  Very easy for players, or state associations, or IPL teams to want to push players before they are ready, in pursuit of the almighty $$$. 

All discussions and debates on ICF are "pissing in the wind" as I doubt it has any bearings on how things eventually pan out but this is what us cricket fans do irrespective of whether it has an impact. At the end of the day the reason I want Pant to be with the team is that he will play alongside and learn from Dhoni. He will be under the guidance of Kohli & Kumble. His workload will be managed and progress monitored. I doubt anything will happen if he's sent to domestic cricket to "mature". It could very well be that he loses his way in domestic cricket and he has nobody to lean on. Pant has shown way too promise for us to risk such a thing happen to him.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Ultimate_Game

[Cricketics]

More than Gilly, he can play the role of Hussey if his batting is good enough alone. Hence if not keeping, we should use him and play him as a batsman in ODI's as that is the best transition to test side.

 

Also, instead of keeping likes of Rohit Sharma in the test side who have completed the world tour in not 80 days but more and without much success overseas, I would invest in young Pant and let him struggle too. Even Pujara struggled on his first tour to South Africa but was part of a brilliant Durban session with Tendulkar and gained valuable experience. Pant needs to go to places like South Africa. 

 

We need Pant to be part of those valuable sessions. Hands on experience is always better than seeing on TV. Pants need to travel to these nations and see the struggles and also taste some success. 

[King Tendulkar]

Let's be honest no one has really seen pant play 

 

I like so many think he is special .

 

but then again I never reallly judge a player unless I have seen him live a few times on 50 inch plasma . Then I can see how he walks , talks , holds the bat , fields and breathes lol

 

i hope we not hyping him too much in to some kind of kohli mixed with tendulakr and bit of a ponting lol we might all be a bit disappointed when see him as expectations are out of control 

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, King Tendulkar said:

Let's be honest no one has really seen pant play 

 

I like so many think he is special .

 

but then again I never reallly judge a player unless I have seen him live a few times on 50 inch plasma . Then I can see how he walks , talks , holds the bat , fields and breathes lol

 

i hope we not hyping him too much in to some kind of kohli mixed with tendulakr and bit of a ponting lol we might all be a bit disappointed when see him as expectations are out of control 

 

 

You should follow IPL....something excites you then maybe a couple of domestic games on willow TV to follow that.

 

But caution-You will see BS Sandhu's,Kalarias of the world too but that is a hazard that comes with it

 

[King Tendulkar]

Look pant has exploded in this fc season 

 

this ipl we will get to see him properly . 

 

Then the judgments will flow 

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, King Tendulkar said:

Look pant has exploded in this fc season 

 

this ipl we will get to see him properly . 

 

Then the judgments will flow 

 

 

Saw him in the last IPL...actually that's what got the ball rolling when he smacked good bowlers...he just took that confidence to the next level bashing pointless trundlers and darters  like how they are supposed to be treated along with the few good bowlers along the way.

 

There is a reason why people are this excited. He has satisfied the stats lovers as well as fans who have seen him play.

[Ultimate_Game]

21 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Let's be honest no one has really seen pant play 

 

I like so many think he is special .

 

but then again I never reallly judge a player unless I have seen him live a few times on 50 inch plasma . Then I can see how he walks , talks , holds the bat , fields and breathes lol

 

i hope we not hyping him too much in to some kind of kohli mixed with tendulakr and bit of a ponting lol we might all be a bit disappointed when see him as expectations are out of control 

 

 

I watched him in the u-19 WC. Looked much better than the others, especially his opening partner. He was always positive and went for his shots. Have wanted him in the setup along with Sarfraz Khan.

[sandeep]

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

Saw him in the last IPL...actually that's what got the ball rolling when he smacked good bowlers...he just took that confidence to the next level bashing pointless trundlers and darters  like how they are supposed to be treated along with the few good bowlers along the way.

 

There is a reason why people are this excited. He has satisfied the stats lovers as well as fans who have seen him play.

Hardik Pandya burst onto the scene in his first IPL, was easily one of the best hitters that season.  Had a big fade in his 2nd IPL season.  Doesn't mean he still isn't a very useful hitter.  Given the wealth of options that Delhi Daredevils have, I will be impressed if they give the gloves to Panth for the season - that will be meritocracy team-benefit based decision which will say a lot about Panth's ability behind the stumps. 

[Muloghonto]

58 minutes ago, maniac said:

@Muloghonto How would you judge if someone is ready or not or how would you know what the ideal time frame is?

 

Would Mike Hussey be successful had he debuted as a 16-18 year old?

 

Would Sachin have the same impact if he debuted as a 25 year old?

 

Let us say if Pant goes back into domestics,will that guarantee that he will never ever drop a catch again when he makes international debut? what if his batting regresses by that point playing domestic trundlers or playing too much IPL.

 

You pull the trigger when you see someone is ready regardless of age...the kid is 80% there...seems to be good enough to keep for his domestic side and was the primary keeper in the country at junior level,in the midst of a purple patch.

 

Would be a huge waste if we let this one slip through or hands(no pun intended)

 

Why do you think its so rare- heck, unprecedented even, to find a wicketkeeper debuting after his first FC season in history of cricket ?

Look, the comparison to Sachin is irrelevant. I am talking about his keeping. Its an entirely different skill set to batting or out fielding or any such thing. It requires muscle memory because its a lot more physical a job. I think there is a good reason why no keeper is rushed this soon and Pant hoopla seems to me just an altogether poor grasp of what makes a good keeper, atleast from the media/general public. 

And thats the whole point - i don't think Pant is ready - in the sense that he should NOT miss Ranji and he should NOT be in the Test team. If management wants to play him sparingly in ODIs, thats a different matter, but it still risks him prioritizing his batting over his keeping, when India's need is the exact opposite.