Rishabh Pant: A few thoughts

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Hardik Pandya burst onto the scene in his first IPL, was easily one of the best hitters that season.  Had a big fade in his 2nd IPL season.  Doesn't mean he still isn't a very useful hitter.  Given the wealth of options that Delhi Daredevils have, I will be impressed if they give the gloves to Panth for the season - that will be meritocracy team-benefit based decision which will say a lot about Panth's ability behind the stumps. 

A)Pant looked like a great talent at the junior level-no big deal..seen plenty of talent that did not make it to the senior level....so we could reserve judgement..

B)then came IPL and as you rightly mentioned there were many young Indian players in IPL who had 1-2 good seasons and turned out to be duds later on. So even though Pant looked like the real deal,we all thought let us wait and see where this takes us because we have seen that before many times over.

C)Then came his FC debut where he had a Bradman like average and a Sehwag like Strike rate.

 

now add up the 3 points above and that is what set Pant apart in terms of how excited fans are for him.

 

As far as Glove work goes...I am certainly not advocating for him in the test team at this moment but he should be in the LOI squad with immediate affect and should also keep in these games while Dhoni plays as a batsman and grooms him.

 

Considering all the points I mentioned,is it really that outrageous?

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, maniac said:

A)Pant looked like a great talent at the junior level-no big deal..seen plenty of talent that did not make it to the senior level....so we could reserve judgement..

B)then came IPL and as you rightly mentioned there were many young Indian players in IPL who had 1-2 good seasons and turned out to be duds later on. So even though Pant looked like the real deal,we all thought let us wait and see where this takes us because we have seen that before many times over.

C)Then came his FC debut where he had a Bradman like average and a Sehwag like Strike rate.

 

now add up the 3 points above and that is what set Pant apart in terms of how excited fans are for him.

 

As far as Glove work goes...I am certainly not advocating for him in the test team at this moment but he should be in the LOI squad with immediate affect and should also keep in these games while Dhoni plays as a batsman and grooms him.

 

Considering all the points I mentioned,is it really that outrageous?

So basically, you are backing off the claim that he's ready for tests.  Good.  Not surprised to see you finally change bandwagons after bumping the 'Panth for tests" thread.  Predictably double dholki.  

[King Tendulkar]

30 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Why do you think its so rare- heck, unprecedented even, to find a wicketkeeper debuting after his first FC season in history of cricket ?

Look, the comparison to Sachin is irrelevant. I am talking about his keeping. Its an entirely different skill set to batting or out fielding or any such thing. It requires muscle memory because its a lot more physical a job. I think there is a good reason why no keeper is rushed this soon and Pant hoopla seems to me just an altogether poor grasp of what makes a good keeper, atleast from the media/general public. 

And thats the whole point - i don't think Pant is ready - in the sense that he should NOT miss Ranji and he should NOT be in the Test team. If management wants to play him sparingly in ODIs, thats a different matter, but it still risks him prioritizing his batting over his keeping, when India's need is the exact opposite.

 

Very much agree on keeping bit.  Missing a chance and not letting head drop is big thing in keeping . Mainataing concentartion over long days . Not to mention technique 

 

keeping tough skill as people like patel and bairstow have been exposed in 

[maniac]

34 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So basically, you are backing off the claim that he's ready for tests.  Good.  Not surprised to see you finally change bandwagons after bumping the 'Panth for tests" thread.  Predictably double dholki.  

Nope I have never said that.....the thread says should Pant be fast-tracked in tests which probably was merged with a bunch of other threads and got renamed in that priocess.. but the original thread I opened was Pant needs to be in LOI side right now. anyways this isn't about you proving a point to me or vice-versa.

 

Point that I always maintained from the last 2 months. Pant needs to be in LOI's and needs to be polished and groomed for tests ASAP,preferably with a 1 year turnaround.

Edited January 13, 2017 by maniac

[maniac]

 

Quote

 

Exciting young prospect....don't waste time with the Jadhavs of the world...with Dhoni nearing the end of his career....Get this kid in right now.

 

Aussies played Gilchrist in LOI's as a specialist batsman when Healy was nearing his end.....South Africa play AB and DE Kock in LOI's...Eng have Billings,Duckett,Butler,Baristow all specialist keepers in the X1 in LOI's.

 

Let us not waste time...I think he is ready for the big leagues....major reason is I have seen this kid play and he has no fear or is not intimidated by reputation....Get him in before he loses that playing too much domestics.

 

That was my OP for reference

[maniac]

31 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Very much agree on keeping bit.  Missing a chance and not letting head drop is big thing in keeping . Mainataing concentartion over long days . Not to mention technique 

 

keeping tough skill as people like patel and bairstow have been exposed in 

But Baristow adds so much more than probably all the other "experienced keepers" in English domestics...doesn't he?

 

Fair enough if he is picked ahead of Butler as the better keeper even though Butler's LOI exploits are something else.

Edited January 13, 2017 by maniac

[King Tendulkar]

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

But Baristow adds so much more than probably all the other "experienced keepers" in English domestics...doesn't he?

 

Fair enough if he is picked ahead of Butler as the better keeper even though Butler's LOI exploits are something else.

Bairstow run v missed chances . They had horror run in Asia . Not saying all bairstow fault . But what if had top notch keeper snapping up half chances ? Run v runs cost dismissals . 

 

Seems like new stat needed for 

keepers lol

 

also keepers set tone for fielding unit . Neat, tidy , energetic keeper can set bench mark and make the unit give more and deliver more . Plus gives bowlers extra energy knowing keeper will take chances created 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Bairstow run v missed chances . They had horror run in Asia . Not saying all bairstow fault . But what if had top notch keeper snapping up half chances ? Run v runs cost dismissals . 

 

Seems like new stat needed for 

keepers lol

 

also keepers set tone for fielding unit . Neat, tidy , energetic keeper can set bench mark and make the unit give more and deliver more . Plus gives bowlers extra energy knowing keeper will take chances created 

Sarfaraz,Wade,Baristow are all average keepers but they are picked for their batting ability.

 

Dekock is a superstar for his batting...I have not seen anyone calling him a world-class keeper-bat for his keeping.

 

I believe only the Nzl keeper is in for his keeping ability,even they tried Ronchi for his batting and he had to suck real bad for him to get thrown out.

 

Saha is better when you compare him to Parthiv who is one of the worst keepers of all time but even he has been lackluster in a few games and his batting is average at best.

 

How much worse can Pant be...remember he is not a make-shift keeper but a full-time keeper since the beginning of his career.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

Sarfaraz,Wade,Baristow are all average keepers but they are picked for their batting ability.

 

Dekock is a superstar for his batting...I have not seen anyone calling him a world-class keeper-bat for his keeping.

 

I believe only the Nzl keeper is in for his keeping ability,even they tried Ronchi for his batting and he had to suck real bad for him to get thrown out.

 

Saha is better when you compare him to Parthiv who is one of the worst keepers of all time but even he has been lackluster in a few games and his batting is average at best.

 

How much worse can Pant be...remember he is not a make-shift keeper but a full-time keeper since the beginning of his career.

 

 

it is not a question of how much worse Pant can be at this moment, its about how good Pant can be, if we give his keeping time to develop.

He may become an Adam Gillchrist or Dhoni with the bat or even better if he is put in the international team, but without playing FC cricket for a few years, he will never become as good a keeper as Gilchrist or even better.

 

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

it is not a question of how much worse Pant can be at this moment, its about how good Pant can be, if we give his keeping time to develop.

He may become an Adam Gillchrist or Dhoni with the bat or even better if he is put in the international team, but without playing FC cricket for a few years, he will never become as good a keeper as Gilchrist or even better.

 

Let me clarify this,because a lot of us who back Pant are ok with this theory that he may need some time to be inducted to the test arena.

 

Are you against him playing in LOI's that is both ODI's and T20's?

 

Do you think he shouldn't play any international games?

 

Should he play purely as a batsman only?

 

Should he keep in ODI's and T20's?

 

I am asking you this because I suspect we might be more or less on the same page.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Let me clarify this,because a lot of us who back Pant are ok with this theory that he may need some time to be inducted to the test arena.

 

Are you against him playing in LOI's that is both ODI's and T20's?

 

Do you think he shouldn't play any international games?

 

Should he play purely as a batsman only?

 

Should he keep in ODI's and T20's?

 

I am asking you this because I suspect we might be more or less on the same page.

 

1. I am for him *NOT* missing Ranji for the next 2 seasons. For the next 2 years, his Ranji season comes as priority #1. This is imperative or else he won't develop his game in a pressure-free learning environment that is still competitive , which is FC cricket

2. It wouldn't hurt him if he didnt play international cricket for the next 2 years. Only way i think it can help him, is if he plays 3-4 ODIs/T20 (total) this year and next, then looking to be more active (performance depending of course) from late 2018/early 2019. 

Any more than that, then its all the incentive he needs to ignore his keeping and focus on his batting and the board/coach will be under pressure to include him, accelerating the process of him turning into a great batsman + ok keeper.

 

3. I don't think he should keep in ODIs or T20s unless its a dead rubber (Give Dhoni a break) or if Dhoni is injured. 

 

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

1. I am for him *NOT* missing Ranji for the next 2 seasons. For the next 2 years, his Ranji season comes as priority #1. This is imperative or else he won't develop his game in a pressure-free learning environment that is still competitive , which is FC cricket

2. It wouldn't hurt him if he didnt play international cricket for the next 2 years. Only way i think it can help him, is if he plays 3-4 ODIs/T20 (total) this year and next, then looking to be more active (performance depending of course) from late 2018/early 2019. 

Any more than that, then its all the incentive he needs to ignore his keeping and focus on his batting and the board/coach will be under pressure to include him, accelerating the process of him turning into a great batsman + ok keeper.

 

3. I don't think he should keep in ODIs or T20s unless its a dead rubber (Give Dhoni a break) or if Dhoni is injured. 

 

That is where the difference of opinion is...dead rubber well is a dead rubber...if it was the WC tomorrow or even the WT20 sure Dhoni will be preffered,but he will learn more about keeping and awareness in an international game with some stakes involved in it than 3 seasons of Ranji or the next 5 A tous

 

[BeautifulGame]

That is where the difference of opinion is...dead rubber well is a dead rubber...if it was the WC tomorrow or even the WT20 sure Dhoni will be preffered,but he will learn more about keeping and awareness in an international game with some stakes involved in it than 3 seasons of Ranji or the next 5 A tous

 

That's just nonsense and absurd.

One will learn far more playing Ranji trophy about test skills (batting and Keeping both ) than playing in shorter formats .

Infact that is one of the reasons he should be included in the test team for Bangladesh and Australia series because we don't have FC cricket till next September.

But he will learn more about test match skills in one year of Ranji than playing in five years of international shorter format cricket.Yuvraj is a perfect example of ruining a youngster by not letting him play enough Ranji and not letting him develop .

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

That was the logic used to keep Parthiv with the national team, thinking he will develop well enough with the national team.  We all know how that went.  Developing 'Keepers need time and space to work on their craft away from the spotlight - so they can have bad days at a lower level and keep focused on improvement without it putting a big dent on their psyche.  

 

You never know, maybe Panth is athletic enough to keep developing and maintain a high standard - follow in Dhoni's footsteps - MS was never that great a keeper, but he was solid.  He had a lot of question marks on his wicket keeping when he first made the team - got better and held his own, purely out of his athleticsm, hard work and mental toughness.  Not all can do that in the face of sustained pressure and spotlight - unfair to pick on Party Patel, but he's the best example of this. He was unable to handle it, got the 'keeping version of the yips really, and was never the same again.  

And Parthiv never became a high class keeper even after so many years of FC cricket. So saying going back will turn Pant into world class keeper is fued. For example, Dinesh Karthik who was a brilliant keeper when he debuted but his batting was iffy and then Dhoni came along, Karthik got dropped, went back to FC and since then his keeping has only gotten worse. Before that, he was better than both PP and Dhoni as a keeper.

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

I'd argue that Parthiv was sent too late to FC - after the damage was already done.  Its the formative years that 'keepers need to be protected and not thrown into the fire.  But again, this debate is like pissing in the wind, on both sides.  Fans don't really know what Rishabh's proficiency levels are with the gloves, or what is best for his development at this point in time.  We can only hope that Kumble, the selectors etc do know and make the right call on this, without letting non-cricket factors get in the way.  Very easy for players, or state associations, or IPL teams to want to push players before they are ready, in pursuit of the almighty $$$.

 

 

No question, Dhoni was nowhere near the best keeper, had/has share of flaws.  But as you admit, best of the lot, and also most improved.  Great example of how a guy made the most out of his abilities, driven by work ethic and mental strength.  

Parthiv debutat for India at 17 and he barely played 2 years before he was dropped in 2004. So he was at max 19-20.

[MK55]

Good that he's introduced in international cricket. Also want him in ODIs asap. This would expose him to top quality fast bowling which cannot be sought in domestics. At this stage Im more concerned about his role as a power hitter than a keeper. 

For tests, its fine if he is held back for some time if his keepjng is not upto the mark. But I wouldnt make him play Ranjis at the cost of missing LOIs. Development of his batting is even more important for me.

[gakgupta]

15 hours ago, maniac said:

@Muloghonto How would you judge if someone is ready or not or how would you know what the ideal time frame is?

 

Would Mike Hussey be successful had he debuted as a 16-18 year old?

 

Would Sachin have the same impact if he debuted as a 25 year old?

 

Let us say if Pant goes back into domestics,will that guarantee that he will never ever drop a catch again when he makes international debut? what if his batting regresses by that point playing domestic trundlers or playing too much IPL.

 

You pull the trigger when you see someone is ready regardless of age...the kid is 80% there...seems to be good enough to keep for his domestic side and was the primary keeper in the country at junior level,in the midst of a purple patch.

 

Would be a huge waste if we let this one slip through or hands(no pun intended)

 

Very well said....

but how would you know if he is 80% ready....none of the matches were telecasted ......we don't know, how man catches he has dropped and how many times he was dropped when he was batting.....

[gakgupta]

7 hours ago, MK55 said:

Good that he's introduced in international cricket. Also want him in ODIs asap. This would expose him to top quality fast bowling which cannot be sought in domestics. At this stage Im more concerned about his role as a power hitter than a keeper. 

For tests, its fine if he is held back for some time if his keepjng is not upto the mark. But I wouldnt make him play Ranjis at the cost of missing LOIs. Development of his batting is even more important for me.

with this same attitude, we have lost raina and yuvi as test batsmen

[G_B_]

I just hope for his sake Pant pays off.

 

Lots of pressure on the kid even before debut....

[MK55]

42 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

with this same attitude, we have lost raina and yuvi as test batsmen

Raina and Yuvraj got found out against the short ball. More relevant to Raina. No amount of exposure to domestic trundlers would have helped in getting rid of this deficiency. Someone like Raina had to keep improving his game by tackling his weaknesses.

Anyways by power hitting Im not just referring to blind slogging but a batsman who is fearless with good technique and ability to change the momentum/tempo of the game when required. Someone like Butler and De Kock. And attacking batsmen are not at a disadvantage in test cricket. They are equally likely to succeed and can be game changers in that format if they play sensibly.