About time SC banned Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal and RSS

[BeautifulGame]

@Muloghonto RSS was the only organization that actually did service during the Chennai floods...not any of the other so called "secular" organizations.

 

 

Who told u this nonsense ?

 

RSS themselves involved a lot but so did most other organizations.Infact Muslim organizations played a massive part in Chennai floods .

 

Infact people were kept in both temples and mosques for days after the Chennai floods.

 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/muslim-group-cleans-floodhit-temples/article7959652.ece

 

[Muloghonto]

19 hours ago, Vilander said:

Not that simple. Follow the current missile race between China-India-Pakistan its pretty much cat and mouse, there is something called strategic balance that needs to be maintained to ensure credible deterrence, else the other side will call ones bluff like what China does to India, and India did to Pak with the strikes.

yes. but my point is, all the planes, tanks, etc. are largely useless and for show. We will most likely reach the service life of Su-30MKIs before we ever see it in combat. 
So focusing on defence budget, when our law and order situation is horrible, is less productive for the nation.

 

[maniac]

On 2/25/2017 at 9:53 AM, BeautifulGame said:

 

Who told u this nonsense ?

 

RSS themselves involved a lot but so did most other organizations.Infact Muslim organizations played a massive part in Chennai floods .

 

Infact people were kept in both temples and mosques for days after the Chennai floods.

 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/muslim-group-cleans-floodhit-temples/article7959652.ece

 

Great as long as you agree on the first point,nothing else to argue about,I will concede the rest but Thanks for supporting my point to @Muloghonto

 

Now let me build on this as a response to him

 

Point 1-I am sure there are a lot of Muslim and Christian based NPO's and charity organizations-never denied that. I will agree that Arya Samaj or Brahmo Samaj are religious organizations despite them fighting for social causes without any ulterior agenda.

 

Point 2-RSS again is not a "Hindu" organization. It is a nationalist ideology..Please see below as they are making efforts to incorporate Muslims too...it is like saying BJP is a Hindu only party and a non-secular party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Rashtriya_Manch

 

Point 3-I know that what i put in bold because that is usually a kind of propaganda and this ties in with the phobia RSS suffers-Now as BG said earlier that RSS does involve itself in social causes-the problem is not branding RSS as a Hindutva organization, the problem becomes when RSS is used as a means to show the other end of the spectrum as a same side of the coin to the Talibans,Al-Qaeda etc of the world.

 

RSS is no way similar.It does not enforce an ideology or follows a set of tenets. It is not a political ideology like the Taliban or neither it is an underground terrorist network like Lashkars and Al-Q's of the world. You must be trying real hard to clutch at straws to put them on the same pedestal.

 

Point 4- India is for the most part a free economy but as a democracy we have a place for a communist party....hell there is a communist party in USA too because why? they are an ideology-you may or may not agree with them but they exist in a democracy...RSS is similar. 

 

So don't see why you want them to be banned.

Edited February 27, 2017 by maniac

[Muloghonto]

11 minutes ago, maniac said:

Great as long as you agree on the first point,nothing else to argue about,I will concede the rest but Thanks for supporting my point to @Muloghonto

 

Now let me build on this as a response to him

 

Point 1-I am sure there are a lot of Muslim and Christian based NPO's and charity organizations-never denied that. I will agree that Arya Samaj or Brahmo Samaj are religious organizations despite them fighting for social causes without any ulterior agenda.

 

Point 2-RSS again is not a "Hindu" organization. It is a nationalist ideology..Please see below as they are making efforts to incorporate Muslims too...it is like saying BJP is a Hindu only party and a non-secular party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Rashtriya_Manch

 

Point 3-I know that what i put in bold because that is usually a kind of propaganda and this ties in with the phobia RSS suffers-Now as BG said earlier that RSS does involve itself in social causes-the problem is not branding RSS as a Hindutva organization, the problem becomes when RSS is used as a means to show the other end of the spectrum as a same side of the coin to the Talibans,Al-Qaeda etc of the world.

 

RSS is no way similar.It does not enforce an ideology or follows a set of tenets. It is not a political ideology like the Taliban or neither it is an underground terrorist network like Lashkars and Al-Q's of the world. You must be trying real hard to clutch at straws to put them on the same pedestal.

 

Point 4- India is for the most part a free economy but as a democracy we have a place for a communist party....hell there is a communist party in USA too because why? they are an ideology-you may or may not agree with them but they exist in a democracy...RSS is similar. 

 

So don't see why you want them to be banned.

 

Actually, I don't think RSS is similar to Al -Q and Taliban and 'crazy Muslims' at all. But it is a political ideology. RSS dominated areas, people get beat up for eating beef. Because of religion being 'enforced' on others. Nobody is putting them on *that* pedestal. 

If you notice, most of the fears of RSS/VHP dominated politics, is actually a comparison to similar approach & ethos as the NAZI party, on a much slower pace. 

 

The predominant reason i want RSS and virtually every party to face sanctions, is because they spread their ways through violence that goes 'unpunished'.

Ever seen an actual political Gunda-gardi at common level ? It *ALWAYS* ends up as party members <insert party here> beating people up,in the name of the party, the party doing nothing & police doing nothing. Rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter if its BJP, 'Bam front' , Congress, Trinamul, whatever. 

The reason i want ShivSena to be sanctioned (which i think any fair way would quickly lead to banning of the political organization) is because we have very clear evidence of them sheltering criminals who commit crime on people who don't follow their political agenda. I simply don't see why Indians, most of which here are NRIs, don't see the merit in holding political parties legally accountable for the actions committed by party members in official capacity. 

 

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Actually, I don't think RSS is similar to Al -Q and Taliban and 'crazy Muslims' at all. But it is a political ideology. RSS dominated areas, people get beat up for eating beef. Because of religion being 'enforced' on others. Nobody is putting them on *that* pedestal. 

If you notice, most of the fears of RSS/VHP dominated politics, is actually a comparison to similar approach & ethos as the NAZI party, on a much slower pace. 

 

The predominant reason i want RSS and virtually every party to face sanctions, is because they spread their ways through violence that goes 'unpunished'.

Ever seen an actual political Gunda-gardi at common level ? It *ALWAYS* ends up as party members <insert party here> beating people up,in the name of the party, the party doing nothing & police doing nothing. Rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter if its BJP, 'Bam front' , Congress, Trinamul, whatever. 

The reason i want ShivSena to be sanctioned (which i think any fair way would quickly lead to banning of the political organization) is because we have very clear evidence of them sheltering criminals who commit crime on people who don't follow their political agenda. I simply don't see why Indians, most of which here are NRIs, don't see the merit in holding political parties legally accountable for the actions committed by party members in official capacity. 

 

In theory I agree,I mean what is there to disagree there....but unless your solution is a Monarchy or Communist regime ,I  don't see how a totally clean up of all political parties can be done...it is not that cut and dry.

 

How would you measure gunda-gardhi and criminal politicians to determien which party should be banned....let us say 80% of Shiv Sainiks are criminals and 40% of Congress and 60% of BJP are criminals-should there be a threshold and a cut off point here?

 

Similarly RSS has a history of doing social work and in theory has a great motto that is Indian nationalism-can you disagree with either...now if some fringe elements have committed crimes,sure ask for the head,but why ban them totally when same applies to every political party out there?

 

 

[Muloghonto]

43 minutes ago, maniac said:

In theory I agree,I mean what is there to disagree there....but unless your solution is a Monarchy or Communist regime ,I  don't see how a totally clean up of all political parties can be done...it is not that cut and dry.

 

How would you measure gunda-gardhi and criminal politicians to determien which party should be banned....let us say 80% of Shiv Sainiks are criminals and 40% of Congress and 60% of BJP are criminals-should there be a threshold and a cut off point here?

 

Similarly RSS has a history of doing social work and in theory has a great motto that is Indian nationalism-can you disagree with either...now if some fringe elements have committed crimes,sure ask for the head,but why ban them totally when same applies to every political party out there?

 

 

I don't see why we can't come up with similar repeat-offence based escalated penalties, like we do with corporations. 

It can be done, as an effect towards demanding our government to spend more on the justice system.

More courts, more verdicts, incarceration/fines/enforced judicial orders, etc. also means more surveillance, more money spent on evidence gathering etc.

[Tibarn]

On 2/19/2017 at 4:12 PM, Malcolm Merlyn said:

@Tibarn

 

Table 1

Political violence has overall been in decline since 1966-1970.

 

Overall, over the same time period, viewing incidents of political violence and number of deaths from those incidents, comparing 5 states, the proverbial "Hindutva laboratory" or "RSS playground" in Gujarat, has lesser incidents and casualties than RSS-free zones such as WB or even TN. What is noteworthy is that the other four states chosen, until the most recent Assam election, have never had a BJP government. The BJP topped out as a junior partner under the JDU in Bihar.  

 

Visualizing the data for the 3 major "national" parties, the BJP, the RSS political wing, has less incidents and less casualties than the other two national parties. The INC had the largest number of incidents, and the Communists had significantly greater body count. 

 

Temporal distribution of deaths from political violence shows that it has been in decline in India since the 1966-1970 band, in general, for all three national parties. 

 

The statistical analysis shows that the violence that occurs under the INC or BJP-RSS is independent of political power; putting it another way, whether the INC or the BJP-RSS is in power, their levels of political violence and the deaths caused are not significantly effected. On the other hand, the Communists have a significant statistical correlation between power and violence. When the communists are in power, their levels of violence and the number of deaths increase. 

 

Going to overall terrorism data:

0.5% of all incidents considered terrorism in India, were related to Hindus or Hinduism as an ideology, over the time period of 1972-2014. (Note: Northeast violence includes Christian).

 

 

 

Using the last 15 years as a more recent time-frame of data, a similar trend is found, with 0.7% of fatalities being "saffron."

 

Using riot data from 2012, based on 2012 CMs. 

Rank	State	Riots Rate (per 100,000 population) 2012
1	Kerala	31.4	INC
2	Assam	16.3	INC
3	Lakshadweep	13.0
4	Karnataka	12.5	BJP
5	Jammu and Kashmir	11.8	NC
6	Bihar	10.9	JDU
7	Puducherry	8.6
8	Maharashtra	7.7	INC
9	West Bengal	7.3	TMC
10	Jharkhand	7.3	BJP
11	Himachal Pradesh	7.2	BJP
12	Goa	6.7	BJP
**	All India Average	6.2
13	Haryana	5.5	INC
14	Odisha	5.3	BJD
15	Tamil Nadu	4.6	AIADMK
16	Chhattisgarh	3.7	BJP
17	Uttarakhand	3.6	INC
18	Tripura	3.5	CPM
19	Sikkim	3.5	SDF
20	Daman and Diu	3.2
21	Chandigarh	3.2
22	Manipur	2.9	INC
23	Gujarat	2.9	BJP
24	Dadra and Nagar Haveli	2.9
25	Uttar Pradesh	2.8	SP
26	Madhya Pradesh	2.6	BJP
27	Andhra Pradesh	2.2	INC
28	Arunachal Pradesh	2.2	INC
29	Andaman and Nicobar Islands	1.6
30	Rajasthan	0.8	INC
31	Delhi	0.4	INC
32	Mizoram	0.1	INC
33	Nagaland	0.1	NPF
34	Punjab	0.0	SAD
35	Meghalaya	0.0	INC

 

 There doesn't seem to be a particular trend. 

 

On a global scale over the previous decade (2001-2010):

The idea that "Saffron Terror" is any significant threat, is not borne out by the evidence. Secular organizations are far more dangerous.

 

Carrying on with a global scale: Research was done by Criminologists on political ideology and crime in the research journal: Personality and Individual Differences (2016). 

Based on the colloquial English use of the terms "conservative" as a proxy of "right" and "liberal" as "left": self identified right wing people are significantly less likely to commit crime in general. This relationship was found to be both significant and linear: the further right someone identifies, the less likely they are to commit any crime, and the further left someone is, the more likely they are to commit a crime.

The crimes that were measured in this research were:

 

 

 

The association was true within subgroups as well, with demographic controls used. This means that, for example, among "White" women, the more left one considered herself, the more likely she was to have committed a crime.   

 

In terms of Moral Science Research:

This appears to be because those identified as "left" focus only on two of five moral systems (fairness and caring), while those identified as "right" use five of five (fairness, caring, loyalty, respect, sanctity).  

 

Further research also shows:

Those that self-identify as "right" are more likely to value order and authority which likely insulate them from criminal behavior. 

 

 

The data and trends are pretty clear: terrorism and crime, whether in India or Globally, is not derived from and does not stem from "right-wing" Hindu groups at any major level. Before an objective person can argue that "right-wing" Hindu groups are to be banned, one must first ban Left-Wing, Islamic, Christian, Khalistani, Tribal, Ethnic, Secular-Political etc groups, whether in India or globally.

 

If one were to target the RSS, thereby effectively targeting BJP, one would have to first target Communists and the INC, and other parties who claim to be of similar ideology to those two National parties, before targeting the BJP-RSS combine. That is, if the goal was to prevent, terrorism, improve law and order, etc.

 

Enjoy @Malcolm Merlyn    

[zen]

Libtards in Ind usually tend to be a good example of the adage - "little knowledge is dangerous" .... the thread appears to be started w/o any meaningful research on the issue and now only serves the purpose of comic value 

Edited March 29, 2017 by zen

[mishra]

@Tibarn too good

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, mishra said:

@Tibarn too good

Except his stats are misleading- he conflates liberal with communists, when commies are anything but liberal. Political left is not always the social or economic left. Besides, the data is easily available that the bulk majority of prisoners in prisons around the world are right wing religious fundamentalists. Even in the west, religious criminals outweigh atheist criminals by a factor of 10 times.

 

[Yoda-esque]

Tibarn..

[Tibarn]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Political left is not always the social or economic left

The redefinition/no true Scotsman/no true Christian fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one's position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples.Types: Attempting to make an appeal to purity (ie "a true Christian wouldn't steal") and redefinition (changing the definition of a term in order to inoculate it from counterexamples ). Attempting to make an appeal to purity and redefining arbitrarily what is left.  You don't get to define what is left and what isn't. The paper clearly says what it means by the terms liberal, which is left. 

 

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Except his stats are misleading- he conflates liberal with communists, when commies are anything but liberal.

The Straw Man: The straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting an opponent’s position to make it easier to refute. Straw man arguments often oversimplify opposing views or disregard inconvenient points in favor of points that are easy to argue against. There was no mention of liberal = communist. The paper uses the word liberal as left.  

 

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Besides, the data is easily available that the bulk majority of prisoners in prisons around the world are right wing religious fundamentalists.

Begging the Question or Circular Argument: This is basically repeating the claim and never providing support for the premises, or, in other words, repeating the same argument over and over again.  Often, dogmatic thinkers don’t even realize this is a fallacy. Provide the data.

 

Argument from repetition : a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction (argumentum ad nauseam). Provide the data. 

 

The A Priori Argument : A corrupt argument from logos, starting with a given, pre-set belief, dogma, doctrine, scripture verse, "fact" or conclusion and then searching for any reasonable or reasonable-sounding argument to rationalize, defend or justify it. Certain ideologues and religious fundamentalists are proud to use this fallacy as their primary method of "reasoning" and some are even honest enough to say so. Provide the data.

 

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Even in the west, religious criminals outweigh atheist criminals by a factor of 10 times.

Proof by assertion: a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction; sometimes confused with argument from repetition (argumentum ad infinitum, argumentum ad nauseam). Provide the data.

 

 

Cherry picking: when used figuratively, refers to selective extraction of points in an argument in order to refute or affirm them while ignoring others which will not support the point(s) being made. It derives from the obvious reluctance to harvest unripe, or overripe, fruit and to select only those which will make profit (or pie).

Often, cherry-picked factoids or references will be over-extrapolated and oversold to give the impression that they are representative, when they are not. If there was any data or sources to back up this sentence, it would be a cherry-picked example.

Atheists over-represented in prison by >5%  in UK 2011.

 

Atheist != left.

 

Provide the data. 

 

[Tibarn]

1 hour ago, Yoda-esque said:

Tibarn..

Hope your having a good Gudi Padwa thus far Bhai.  

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

The redefinition/no true Scotsman/no true Christian fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one's position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples.Types: Attempting to make an appeal to purity (ie "a true Christian wouldn't steal") and redefinition (changing the definition of a term in order to inoculate it from counterexamples ). Attempting to make an appeal to purity and redefining arbitrarily what is left.  You don't get to define what is left and what isn't. The paper clearly says what it means by the terms liberal, which is left. 

Except for the fact that the definition between 'liberal' and 'political left' are not interchangable. You don't get to conflate the socialist left with the communists with the liberal capitalists either.

The paper used an arbitrary definition, which you straw-manned into a comparison, for the purposes of conflating Maoist violence with the liberals. 
 

Quote

The Straw Man: The straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting an opponent’s position to make it easier to refute. Straw man arguments often oversimplify opposing views or disregard inconvenient points in favor of points that are easy to argue against. There was no mention of liberal = communist. The paper uses the word liberal as left.  

When you cite Maoist violence as 'liberal', it is conflating liberal = communist.

 

Quote

 

The A Priori Argument : A corrupt argument from logos, starting with a given, pre-set belief, dogma, doctrine, scripture verse, "fact" or conclusion and then searching for any reasonable or reasonable-sounding argument to rationalize, defend or justify it. Certain ideologues and religious fundamentalists are proud to use this fallacy as their primary method of "reasoning" and some are even honest enough to say so

The A priori nature of your argument is already exposed when you want to drive the agenda that hindu fanatics, unlike all other right wing fanatics, are somehow more peaceful than humanist liberals, by trying to conflate communists with liberals.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/234653/religious-affiliation-of-us-prisoners/

http://terahertzatheist.ca/2012/10/04/whos-in-jail-in-canada/

 

This shows that in the US, liberal atheists are under-represented in the prison system as opposed to right wing leaning folks, while in Canada and UK, these numbers are closely corresponding to the overall population figures of liberal-atheists and the right wing.

 

[surajmal]

Which entity has more credibility in India, RSS or SC? (on the ground among the masses and not in a libtard's living room)

[Muloghonto]

30 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Which entity has more credibility in India, RSS or SC? (on the ground among the masses and not in a libtard's living room)

Same logic follows then, for 'which entity has more credibility in India- Jamaat or SC'..

 

See, this is why the chaddi-mullahs are a threat to India. They will undermine the SC and subvert the law/advocate for it/wish for it, just to serve their petty, make-believe interests. 

And this is why the west & westernized world & China are so much ahead of us as a nation- they understand that the fabric of the nation is something beyond petty religious dadagiri and they respect the rule of law- even when they don't *like* the rulings.

 

[surajmal]

Definition of law according to libtards - give u fecking essay that has got jackall to do with reality . 

Now ask one of the millions on the ground that have pending cases going back decades ...

 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, surajmal said:

Definition of law according to libtards - give u fecking essay that has got jackall to do with reality . 

Now ask one of the millions on the ground that have pending cases going back decades ...

 

 

Easily solved by increasing funding to law and order. But no chaddi or Indian for that matter wants that. Makes it harder to cheat the system.

 

[mishra]

15 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Except his stats are misleading- he conflates liberal with communists, when commies are anything but liberal. Political left is not always the social or economic left. Besides, the data is easily available that the bulk majority of prisoners in prisons around the world are right wing religious fundamentalists. Even in the west, religious criminals outweigh atheist criminals by a factor of 10 times.

 

Kuch misleading nahi hai. Unlike few teen I have seen India and rest long enough. Overall, serious crime is going down. and to op, When was last time a serious crime was allegedly committed by Bajrang Dal or VHP or Chaddi Dhari?

Now compare that to so called peaceful Budhdhist whose total population all over world is less then Hindus  from India and how they are involved in ethinic cleansing of Tamil Hindus in Srilanka or Muslims of Myanmar.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, mishra said:

Kuch misleading nahi hai. Unlike few teen I have seen India and rest long enough. Overall, serious crime is going down. and to op, When was last time a serious crime was allegedly committed by Bajrang Dal or VHP or Chaddi Dhari?

Now compare that to so called peaceful Budhdhist whose total population all over world is less then Hindus  from India and how they are involved in ethinic cleansing of Tamil Hindus in Srilanka or Muslims of Myanmar.

Beating people up for no reason isn't a serious crime ?

Sorry bhai, that just proves my point: India is still not civilized enough to realize that the fundamental value of freedom of the individual is the cornerstone of a free society. Ie, assault on person cannot go unpunished, in overwhelming majority of cases. 
Sorry, but where I live, any of the following : rape, killing, assault, torture, are punished, in overwhelmingly large % of cases. The ones that go scot free are practically statistical freak-incidents.