Kohli's top innings on difficult conditions (bowler friendly conditions+bowlers exploiting those conditons)

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

And still somehow 4 batsmen managed to score runs. Like I said you can call it difficult condition and then we can say that 90% of matches are played in difficult conditions only and we are looking for innings in extremely difficult conditions.

 

I am singling that pitch out as more challenging of many others where Kohli scored 200 ....  his 200s against NZ and Bangladesh were on extremely flat pitches and I am not calling those tracks challenging at all.

 

They still show highlights of that match.... just see it next time and watch whether the ball is moving laterally off the pitch.

Edited August 24, 2017 by express bowling

[Trichromatic]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

I am singling that pitch out as more challenging of many others where Kohli scored 200 ....  his 200s against NZ and Bangladesh were on extreme flat pitches and I am not calling those tracks challenging at all.

How does it compare to pitches where Indian team struggles to score 250?

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

How does it compare to pitches where Indian team struggles to score 250?

 

Just now, MultiB48 said:

score doesnt determine if pitch is difficult or not.

 

This

[Trichromatic]

I think if someone can pull the average scores of players in matches where Indian team scores 50-150, 150-275 275-375, 350-500 and see checks Kohli's contribution in each range to compare with other Indian batsmen, then this can be confirmed somewhat.

 

I believe that Kohli is behind other Indian batsmen in lower ranges and ahead of others in higher ranges. But that requires some digging.

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

score doesnt determine if pitch is difficult or not.

Sure, teams can be bowled out or low score even on good batting pitch, but 4-5 batsmen of a team are unlikely to succeed if it is difficult pitch. 

 

Certainly not if team scores falls in top 3-4% score in history of team scores.

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

This

That score was among top 15 highest score by Indian team away from home. 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;team=6;template=results;type=team;view=innings

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

Sure, teams can be bowled out or low score even on good batting pitch, but 4-5 batsmen of a team are unlikely to succeed if it is difficult pitch. 

 

Certainly not if team scores falls in top 3-4% score in history of team scores.

 

You are  missing out the fact that the current WI does not have the attack to take full advantage of a pitch offering seam movement.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

You are  missing out the fact that the current WI does not have the attack to take full advantage of a pitch offering seam movement.

 

 

Yes that is another point which makes overall condition less challenging and easy to bat on

[Trichromatic]

I will update the thread title to include both pitch and good bowling to reflect challenging conditions for the batsmen

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

Yes that is another point which makes overall condition less challenging and easy to bat on

It does not make the conditions easy to bat on .... one moving delivery might still take the edge etc. .... it just makes it less challenging than it could have been against a strong attack.

 

The difference between the two is significant as the batsman has to get out only once and one delivery is sufficient.

[Trichromatic]

Just now, express bowling said:

It does not make the conditions easy to bat on .... one moving delivery might still take the edge etc. .... it just makes it less challenging than it could have been against a strong attack.

 

The difference between the two is significant as the batsman has to get out only once and one delivery is sufficient.

For international batsmen it certainly makes it easy to bat if bowlers are not good enough to exploit the conditions.

[Deleted_User_1]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

What do rate bowler as friendly conditions.I don't rate Sachin's scores in 1999-00  against Australia as scores in bowler friendly conditions, it was just inept batting by rest of the Indian batting. Laxman 96 in Durban , or Dravid 148 in Leeds were scored in some what bowler friendly.

 

Gavaskar's 90 odd in 1987 against Pakistan on minefield is one of the best in my view as pitch was good along with caliber of bowlers.

 No one can touch that innings against spin. The greatest opener that ever lived.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

I will update the thread title to include both pitch and good bowling to reflect challenging conditions for the batsmen

 

It will carry any meaning only if it is done for all batsmen.

 

For example .... Amla, known to be a top test batsman, failed regularly in England with his team in trouble ..... somehow, only the failures of Indian batsmen are highlighted much more.

[Trichromatic]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

It will carry any meaning only if it is done for all batsmen.

 

For example .... Amla, known to be a top test batsman, failed regularly in England with his team in trouble ..... somehow, only the failures of Indian batsmen are highlighted much more.

It is done for all batsmen. KL Rahul, Pujara, Vijay, Rahane all of them have shown that they can score when everyone else is failing. Kohli is yet to make that mark.

 

Joe Root is another player who goes missing. Smith is way ahead of others. 

 

Indian batsmen have fared well in England since mid 90s. Ganguly, Dravid, Tendulkar all did well there. Kumble, Agarkar scored 100, Sehwag scored 100 in his first series. Only Laxman didn't do well there. 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

For international batsmen it certainly makes it easy to bat if bowlers are not good enough to exploit the conditions.

 

It is not easy, it is still difficult as ordinary bowlers often turn into wicket-takers on helpful pitches / conditions.

[kruiser]

@Trichomatic the fallacy in your argument is that if 3 or 4 batsmen do good then it must not be a bowler friendly pitch. What if all three of those batsmen negated the pitch, conditions and the bowlers to come out on top? It has happened multiple times. 

Going by the same logic, if a team gets bundled for a low score, it must be bowler friendly conditions? Again incorrect; It could very well be inept batting. 

unfortunately there is no pitch rating index that would tell you the "friendliness" of the pitch, so you have to rely on watching the game firsthand or read the reports. 

 

Coming to Kohli, there have been multiple instances where it seems that Kohli has been batting on a different pitch than the other batsmen. Anyone can fail on a given day, but you want to see who inspires confidence to carry the team through in case of a collapse. After Sachin, at least for me that confidence comes from Kohli. 

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

It is not easy, it is still difficult as ordinary bowlers often turn into wicket-takers on helpful pitches / conditions.

That level of difficulty is experienced by batsmen in 90% of their matches.

[express bowling]

 

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

Indian batsmen have fared well in England since mid 90s. Ganguly, Dravid, Tendulkar all did well there. Kumble, Agarkar scored 100, Sehwag scored 100 in his first series. Only Laxman didn't do well there. 

 

Batting in England was never considered difficult due to the not-too high and not-too-low bounce and pace of the pitches, which makes it easier to counter the lateral movement.

 

This is a new issue of modern batters as they don't play any county cricket.

[Trichromatic]

Just now, kruiser said:

@Trichomatic the fallacy in your argument is that if 3 or 4 batsmen do good then it must not be a bowler friendly pitch. What if all three of those batsmen negated the pitch, conditions and the bowlers to come out on top? It has happened multiple times. 

Going by the same logic, if a team gets bundled for a low score, it must be bowler friendly conditions? Again incorrect; It could very well be inept batting. 

unfortunately there is no pitch rating index that would tell you the "friendliness" of the pitch, so you have to rely on watching the game firsthand or read the reports. 

 

Coming to Kohli, there have been multiple instances where it seems that Kohli has been batting on a different pitch than the other batsmen. Anyone can fail on a given day, but you want to see who inspires confidence to carry the team through in case of a collapse. After Sachin, at least for me that confidence comes from Kohli. 

That logic doesn't translate to low score = bowler friendly conditon. Already said that in posts above. Batting can fail on easy tracks.

4 out of 10 batsmen and one of the highest score in history means it's easy to bat conditon and if it is not then it is an outlier, an exceptional scenario where everyone played their best game. 

 

That match was hardly and outlier or exceptional scenario.

 

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

 may be bhuvi is a better batsman than kohli ,how often due you get a 100 runs 8th wicket partnership to chase it down lol ,had kohli got the runs up the order it would have been written off as unchallenging

 

Exactly.  It is being missed that the team often stabilizes when Kohli scores and the crisis does not arise.