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rtmohanlal

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Everything posted by rtmohanlal

  1. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Who said these are 'faults' of Miller?Its just that I consider a proven player over an unproven player. This because history of the game is testimony to several players who were/are in two opposite ends based on comfort zones.For instance the likes of Sehwag,Warner,Mahela,Pujara,Kumble,Ashwin,Vaas,Lillee ,James Anderson,Harbhajan,Ntini,Herath,Boon,Justin Langer etc etc were far better in their comfort zones when compared to alien conditions. Similarly players like Ashwin,Pujara,Rahane,Yuvraj Singh,Rohit sharma,Dhawan,Misbah,Younis khan,Walsh,Bevan,Langer,Maxwell,Afridi ,Brett lee,Walsh etc etc proves how difficult it is to maintain standards over formats.Similarly I can give you a lot more no: of names .Based on these strong evidences I am proned to pick a proven player over an unproven one.
  2. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Agreed that fact about the injury which I am hearing for the first time. But the other factors like work density,support bowling strength ,longevity, unproven track record in alien conditions, untested in more than one format etc etc still stands in Miller-Kapil comparisons.
  3. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    A bowler who played only 5 tests in his career a great one? Hope you are not kidding.In that particular series he would have been great.That's all.
  4. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Playing just 55 tests in over 10 years & 5 months is a lot less work density when compared to playing 62 tests in just 5 years & 5 months like Kapil did. And in his cricinfo details, i don't find any of Miller's injury details apart in one series related to some back disc problem .
  5. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    You accuse me for side stepping which is far from true. For instance I would take that Hadlee's support bowling strength case about which you enquired. I had already given the below set of paras as the answer.Infact I am posting "Perhaps I can't recall the instance ....... even more credit in my book." for the 3rd time here.From this you could have easliy assumed as to what i think of Hadlee's support bowling . Yet you keep on repeating the same.What should i do ?. Similarly I have given all my justifications for my claiming thru various posts of mine. Nothing more to pen .....it is really tiring to repeat all those again & again.. this was my previous msg: w.r.t Hadlee Perhaps I can't recall the instance of Hadlee stating 'tampering should be legal' or I am hearing this for the first time. Any way if it has to be believed, then this indicates to one more thing. Hadlee too was guilty of involving in this illegal exercise at least in minimal levels when compared to Imran.Other wise, if he was cent percent saint in this matter, he would have vehemently opposed to such an unethical matter.That is just psychological. In the late 70s & early 80s there were a handful of world class bowlers in Lillee, Thompson,Hadlee,Imran,Wasim,Kapil, Bohtam ,Willis,Underwood,Marshall,Roberts,Holding,Garner,Clarke,,Walsh etc etc. Of these the only one bowler who played a lot 86 tests,with out any bowling support & yet ended up with an ATG average of 22.31 was Hadlee. I often wondered about how a bowler could end up that good against such a load of adversities and marvel about his quality as abowler. Now that I come to realise this statement of his, I am forced to firmly believe that he too had his fair share of this evil .That inturn raises the esteem of both Kapil & Botham in my mind even more.Kapil was clean w.r.t this factor.Botham too, despite having issues w.r.t some drugs discipline etc etc was clean in this matter .So both gets even more credit in my book. Either the above said matter w.r.t Hadlee was true in all high probablity. Or in the least probablity , it might be that Hadlee was such a great bowler. On a side note, I still remember Viv Richards providing a statement in the lines of 'modern day batsmen are not men enough not to wear helmets' or some thing like that.That is what pure innocence can do from a 'psychological' point of view.In his mind Viv was crystal clear that he didn't wear helmet almost all thru out his career.That confidence of being so sure in his mind w.r.t the matter tempted Viv to create such a bold statement.Similarly had Hadlee been 100% confident of being innocent w.r.t tampering, he would so boldly & strongly have opposed tampering as unethical.
  6. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    I was generally speaking about the bowling standards that Pakistan possesed during those 80s.Agreed Waqar didn't play in those first 2 series against WI. But then West Indies team too had to rely on Patterson,Tony Gray etc etc who were not great bowlers either in several of these matches . Even Ambrose & Bishop started in 1988 or so ,basically they were rookies.So I was generally speaking .To get a more clear picture you yourself can go thru the details of all these matches. BTW out of just curiosity .... your nationality ???
  7. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    greatest. So if you do include captaincy in your rating then captaincy is a massive plus for imran. Imran was a great captain.But Kapil was not far behind too.If any , only a few inches behind. And why? Firstly we can't go by win-loss stats alone.This because that depends on the over all strength of the team. If that is the yard stick , then Clive Lloyd has to be the greatest ever captain. Now coming to Imran , he possessed a bowling unit at his disposal that rivalled even the WI bowling unit of those times in variety.Bowlers like Sarfraz,Qadir,Iqbal Qasim,Akram,Waqar,Mushtaq Ahmed & himself formed the bowling unit of PAK thru out in the 80s. That attack having right arm,left arm fast bowlers, variety spinners etc etc was having much variety than even that of WI team.All Imran did was utilise them in the most effective way by following horses for courses method. And he had the freedom to select his own players even which no other captain enjoyed.Batting too was good enough. All in all PAK team of the 80s was the 2nd best of those times. Imran achieved some great results like having 3 drawn series against WI team, a series win in IND, one day series win in IND ,world cup win in 92 etc etc. Agreed. But the WI teams Imran took on was going thru a transition period with only Marshall left from the famous FAB4. Lloyd had also retired.And the WI team didn't play at its full strength in all the matches either.In short ,those WI teams, still no:1 in the world was more or less of the same over all quality as that of the opposing PAK teams. Do you feel Imran could have achieved the same results with Agarkars,Binnys in his ranks instead of Wasims & Waqars ??And don't forget the part played by his 'wicked ally' bottle top in these performances. And Kapil achieved some great results like world cup win against all odds, a 0-2 loss in 5 match test series in WI(keep in mind most of the teams were getting destroyed at the hands of that WI team),2-0 series win in ENG, a drawn series in AUS( IND would have won the series if not for the whether) etc etc.What not his all round performances in that WI series is a stuff of legends.He was great in Australia too. All this he achieved he achieved with very weak bowling unit at his disposal. So all in all Kapil was not that far behind w.r.t captaincy. Having said all this, why is so much preference to this captaincy factor? After all it is a mental aspect of the game only.It is important.but for me fielding which is a physical aspect like batting & bowling is as important as captaincy if not a bit more important.In over all fielding & catching they were poles apart.
  8. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    I started watching cricket from 1985 onwards.
  9. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    With regard to our topic in hand,i have pointed out several things as to why I place Kapil so highly.Similarly you too have put forward several points. We both have the freedom to analyse all these points and reach our own conclusions. Based on that I believe Kapil was the best of the FAB 4 of 80s. Even if you differ from me , i respect your opinions & conclusions. So what big deal ?
  10. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Law can't always go correct. For instance we can see even notorious criminals escaping from the hands of law even after committing murders just because of the fact that there is not enough eye witness or evidences. Even it must be that, because of the fear of their security & well being, people who have actually viewed the events thru naked eye will not provide eyewitness and the culprit escapes.Here in this case law couldn't punish Imran ,because ICC itself was not at all strict W.R.T tampering those times just like Olympics governing body was towards drugs.And to add to that , is it any official rankings of ICC that places the all rounders in any order as of now? they are all opinions of different game related people.Hence I too have an opinion about them .And based on the circumstancial evidences in the form of several cricket related personalities accusing Imran of tampering thru public statements in frequent intervals ever since he has hanged up his boots , It is my strong belief & opinion that Imran was a serious tamperor.
  11. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    yes .... for you such matters are speculations,but for me they are different contexts Kapil & Imran played in and matters that counts to evaluate them.Any way each to their own.
  12. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    If you go thru series wise avg:es of Imran , you would notice one thing .Till 81 NOv , he didn't play at the rate of atleast 6 tests/year .From that period he played 16 tests non stop in a matter of just 13 months or so. Along with his evil ally 'bottle top' & of course with his genuine improvement as a fast bowler , he reaped the maximum benefit one can ever get. He avg:ed around 13 or so in these 16 tests.16 tests on the trot in just 13 months means intense workload. As a result of this heavy work load & there by putting great strain on shins, he suffered severe shin injury.Basically this means Imran put severe strain on his body, reaped the maximum benefit from that in the form of bucket load of wkts and as a result suffered from the nasty injury. So there is no point in saying 'he missed some of his peak years, where he would've lost out on taking wickets etc'. To be more precise, even if he lost a few years due to injury, he also benefitted in the form of 'bucket loads of wkts like never before in his career' from the immense strain he put on his shins that resulted in injury. You can't have it both ways.Is it? And the 'injury & further rest period' is the major difference between the cases of both Imran & Kapil.Imran took adequate rest of almost 2 years & 8 months before turning out to bowl in test cricket again.Since his injury got completely healed, he could start again with the same effectiveness after a gap of 2 years & 8 months. Kapil on the other hand just neglected this 'adequate rest matter' and hence his stats suffered in the immediate 26 tests after his' injury-surgery' period.And i contribute this fall in level of performance to 'heavy work load' factor.A matter of placing country before self. W.R.T support bowling unit , I have already detailed it. Imran played as a full bowler only till just over 37 years old.After that, he bowled occasionally only as his series wise stats reveal.Till his age of 36 years and 2 months he performed at his ususal best.That means, if any ,this old age factor you indicated could have affected him in only the 4 tests that he played in 1989 NOV against IND in PAK.But Imran can't complain for that even because after his age of 36 years & 2 months he played only 13 tests in a period of almost 3 months. That means work density was a lot lower even by his own normal standards.And that isn't enough, Kapil played as a rookie in his first 13 tests till his age of just 20 years & 6 months(means he was still a teenager) .So as per your claim if Imran's stats suffered due to the 4 tests against IND in 89 due to old age & his single test as a teenager in 1971(total 5 tests), so have Kapil's due to the first 13 tests he played as a rookie in a period of just 10 months. So things goes even more in favour of Kapil there.
  13. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    yes ... a point which i am already aware of thoroughly and it is only sensible that you have mentioned it .In a Kapil-Imran comparison w.r.t bowling(even with out taking ball tampering into acount), if we remove from the equation Kapil's terminal decline due to 'longevity' itself, we can see that after first 21000 balls(the entire ball count of Imran is about 19500) his avg; was 28.86.And at this milestone point, suppose that we take Kapil's avg:es in individual countries.And then categorise into abroad,home & minnow avg:s. Here as we always does give weightage to abroad , home & minnow in that order(means avg:S in abroad countries have the maximum weightage, then avg: in home country & then only in minnow country. This is the same yardstick by which a batsman like Sehwag is evaluated.Isn't it? If performances in home conditions were rated at the same level as those to abroad conditions then Sehwag would have been regarded as GOAT batsman) Now for both Kapil & Imran, sort their avg:S in 5 non minnow abroad countries (which carries the most weightage) in ascending order of the numerical values of avg;s.Now make an one one comparison of these 5 values of both players. You can see that it is Kapil who comes out on top with the first 2 values.And what not his best value of 23.11 is in West Indies(best team of their times which carries the most weightage). Imran's over all avg: is 22.81 Kapil's is 28.86 Means at this point of comparison Kapil is 22.81/28.86 = 79% a bowler as that of Imran. And it is worth lot more than that if we take that weightage factor in individual countries into account. Now assume that Kapil got the advantages in 'work density factor(which is most emphatically reflected in the fact that Kapil's wkts/test ratio of 4 in his first 62 tests fell to 2.6 in his next 26 tests.Had Kapil taken adequate rest after his knee injury & further surgery at this time & turned out to play again only after his injury getting fully healed, his stats wouldn't have dropped by such margin ) & support bowling unit factor in the levels Imran benefitted.Then for me his avg: would have been at the least lowered by 2. Means 26.86 which takes it to 22.81/26.86 = 85% as that of Imran.Naturally the avg:s in individual countries too would have been improved in varying degree.Then this weightage factor getting added into mix takes this efficiency a lot more than 85. This is based on bowl avg: factor which was 28.86 (79%).But if we split this again into str: rate & econ:(both str:rate & econ: are byproducts of bowl avg: . Keep in mind str: rate carries a bit more weightage in tests and in that Kapil was at 54.1/59.3 =91.23 efficiency as that of Imran after 21000 balls. ) and do the exercise by mixing work density & support bowling factor into it , the gap with Imran reduces even more than what was the case with plain avg:. These all ,with out taking tampering into mix. I myself had roughtly done this exercise some times back and that is why I am so assured of this
  14. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    I shall stick with my conclusions based on my logic & you shall stick with yours. No regrets.
  15. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Yes ... but what i meant was that it only indicates that batting in general those times was not difficult at all.And that trait would have been the case with Miller too. Inversely bowling in general would not have been that much an easy task.But yet the support bowling strength of Miller being such a very high avg:ed 26 indicates that Australia was such a great bowling powerhouse during those times with bowling not that much extremely tough in general.If bowling in general was that much tougher then we wouldn't have witnessed that much no: of high avg:ing batsmen those days.All in all Miller benefitted a lot from being a part of very strong Australian team of those days.
  16. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    When 2 contemporary players play in 2 different formats, it is only natural to take the performances in both the formats into account for comparing & evaluating these players.One format might be carrying a little more weightage(test cricket in this case) , but that doesn't mean we can't dismiss the performance in the other format as 'nothing happened'. Yes... it would be even more a difficult & complex task to evaluate performances of players based on 'both formats combined'. But with out taking both formats into account , i don't think there is meaning in these comparisons because of the real truth that the plyers have indeed played both the formats.And for all rounders, since the term itself points to brilliance in 'more than one discipline' of the game fielding & captaincy too comes into account. Did I any where say that Kapil was greater a bowler than bowlers like Hadlee,Roberts,Marshall, Lillee,Willis, Holding etc etc ? All i said was that he was much better than his career end avg: of 29.64 because of three factors namely longevity,work density & weak support bowling unit adversely affecting his bowling stats considerably. In one dayers too those 3 factors affected his bowling stats along with him being himself a convincingly better one day bowler than test bowler .
  17. "India are scared of our team": Shahryar Khan

    then it will be atom bombs,granides missiles, etc etc in the stadium itself.... even a world war 3 can be expected.
  18. "India are scared of our team": Shahryar Khan

    i wonder what sort of pathetic guys are you people. chest thumping over a game of cricket. There are lot more important things in life than a silly game of cricket. Yes...majority of the game loving Indians were disappointed a bit , but not to the extends you want us to be. And if you think that this is THE FIRST instance in a multi tounrment other than world cup where all major teams participated & where IND & PAK came head to head in final you are mistaken.Yes here in champions trophy final IND got defeated.But PAK was thrashed in the final of B&H 85 seriesby IND. That time even your ATG kaptaan bottle topper Khan even with his bottle top expertise came a cropper. So that means not even a matter of slightest 'hurt'. Any way even with out these tit for tat results there are no 'hurts'.This because hurts are often associated with lot lot more serious matters in life.For us only 'disappointments'. 'Hurts' are for you delusional Pakistanis because in a nation where bomb blasts in every nuke & corner almost every other day 'extremes' in silly games are the order.Hence 'hurts' & 'chest thumpings' for losses & wins respectively. We Indians have lots of important things to 'get hurt' in real life.
  19. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    that is what makes an all rounder.in other words being good at more than one discipline.So it does make sense
  20. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    I have briefed in detail w.r.t 'why & how much' I rate Kapil as a bowler when compared to other ATG bowlers of the game thru out my posts starting from the OP itself. Still you asked this question really surprises me.
  21. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    in my earlier msg:s I have put forward names of several players. They too know Imran very well.
  22. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    this was my previous msg: w.r.t Hadlee Perhaps I can't recall the instance of Hadlee stating 'tampering should be legal' or I am hearing this for the first time. Any way if it has to be believed, then this indicates to one more thing. Hadlee too was guilty of involving in this illegal exercise at least in minimal levels when compared to Imran.Other wise, if he was cent percent saint in this matter, he would have vehemently opposed to such an unethical matter.That is just psychological. In the late 70s & early 80s there were a handful of world class bowlers in Lillee, Thompson,Hadlee,Imran,Wasim,Kapil, Bohtam ,Willis,Underwood,Marshall,Roberts,Holding,Garner,Clarke,,Walsh etc etc. Of these the only one bowler who played a lot 86 tests,with out any bowling support & yet ended up with an ATG average of 22.31 was Hadlee. I often wondered about how a bowler could end up that good against such a load of adversities and marvel about his quality as abowler. Now that I come to realise this statement of his, I am forced to firmly believe that he too had his fair share of this evil .That inturn raises the esteem of both Kapil & Botham in my mind even more.Kapil was clean w.r.t this factor.Botham too, despite having issues w.r.t some drugs discipline etc etc was clean in this matter .So both gets even more credit in my book. Either the above said matter w.r.t Hadlee was true in all high probablity. Or in the least probablity , it might be that Hadlee was such a great bowler. On a side note, I still remember Viv Richards providing a statement in the lines of 'modern day batsmen are not men enough not to wear helmets' or some thing like that.That is what pure innocence can do from a 'psychological' point of view.In his mind Viv was crystal clear that he didn't wear helmet almost all thru out his career.That confidence of being so sure in his mind w.r.t the matter tempted Viv to create such a bold statement.Similarly had Hadlee been 100% confident of being innocent w.r.t tampering, he would so boldly & strongly have opposed tampering as unethical.
  23. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Not going deep into other points of yours w.r.t Kapil-Botham because I have briefly explained the reasons for placing Kapil above Botham thru several earlier msg:s .In short w.r.t test batting Kapil was slightly better(Based on Kapil's record in WI,his far highly aggressive batting when compared to even Botham,the quality of bowlers he faced thru out when compared to that of Botham on the avg: etc etc.These factors above are enough to slightly overtake a slightly better peak of Botham.)Test batting is the discipline where the gap between the two is the narrowest.Here I won't even blame some one if he places Botham slightly above Kapil.But for me it is Kapil .In test bowling it is Kapil .In both one day batting & bowling, Kapil is way better when all factors are taken into account. In fielding too Kapil was the better all round fielder where as Botham was a slip specialist.In captaincy Kapil was way better as their credentials points to.So all in all Kapil easily. W.R.T above 2 selected points, you can't compare across eras with out taking the entirely different contexts they played in.In other words going by avg:s alone is absolutely senseless.And I have briefed reasons for selecting Kapil above Miller already. Then w.r.t 'bowling support point' , might get more oppertunity to get more wkts , but at higher str: rate & higher econ: there by at higher avg:.For instance take the FAB 4 WI bowlers.Garner had the least count of 5 fors,10 fors etc etc.But he made up for it by ending up with comfortably better avg: than Holding & Roberts & slightly behind Marshall.That is the benefit a strong bowling unit can generate.It creates pressure thru out for the opposition batsmen so that all the bowlers can benefit from that situation in one or other way.Another example is Mitchell Johnson from that 2013 ashes series.He was creating terror thru out so that ENG batsmen could never settle for stable & long partnerships.When ever they appeared to do so Mitchell almost struck. Straight away the coming batsman was under huge pressure to survive, settle down & then rebuild.And this was the match situation for ENG thru out all 5 tests.Naturally all the other bowlers could benefit from this 'always in turmoil' situation of the ENG batsmen.And keep in mind the other bowlers in that AUS team were 'top quality' on their own too. But for a lone quality bowler in a ' very weak bowling team' the situation is entirely different. More often he would be facing situations like 160/1 ,250/2,360/3, 500/4 etc etc because other than him there is no body to strike in regular intervals thru quality wicket taking deliveries.And naturally batsmen would grow in confidence & get well settled & would go after this single quality bowler in his further spells.This would severely affects his stats. in his further spells
  24. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Might be Scyld berry is not aware of Imran's bottle top expertise about which let alone his contemporaries, even his own country men like Rameez Raja ,Aamer Sohail ,Shoaib Akhtar ,Shahbaz Shereef , Sarfraz Nawaz etc etc have been well aware of. That might be the reason.
  25. TOP 5 all rounders of all time

    Miller played from 1946-1956.. So I excluded Bradman & Pondsford. Only Hutton from your names is there in those 8 players whose career largely coincided with that of Miller. For instance I excluded players like Sobers whose career started from 1954.Similalrly some other players too. Keep in mind Miller batted in top 6 for almost all of his career.A ' bowling support of almost 26 avg:' means there were 4 other specialist bowlers who avg:ed 26 each on the avg: who bowled along with him in general.Just imagine as to how strong that bowling unit as a whole was.And to add to that Miller was virtually untested as a bowler in the subcontinent(out of his comfort zone).On the other hand Kapil had 4 bowlers along with him who avg:ed 37.45 each.And all the other points I specified stands too. When I take these factors as a whole I just can't place Miller above some one like Kapil whose avg:es were achieved against so much adversities.

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