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Top 10 Indian Batsman Of All Time!!!(both Odis And Test)
Unread 04-06-2010, 10:25 AM   #1
don_corleone840
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Top 10 Indian Batsman Of All Time!!!(both Odis And Test)

TEST

1 Sachin tendulkar
2 sunil gavaskar
3 rahul dravid
4 virendra sehwag
5 Vvs laxman
6 Vijay hazare
7 Mohammed azharuudin
8 Dilip vengsarkar
9 Gautam gambhir
10 Saurav ganguly

odis

1 Sachin tendulkar
2 Ms Dhoni
3 Sourav ganguly
4 Yuvraj singh
5 Virendra sehwag
6 Rahul dravid
7 M.azharudin
8 A.jadeja
9 K.srikanth
10 Navjot singh sidhu
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Unread 04-06-2010, 12:17 PM   #2
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Unread 04-06-2010, 04:38 PM   #3
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Not in that order...

Ravi Shastri
Chetan Sharma
Laxman Sivramakrishnan
Arun Lal
Saba Karim
Maninder Singh
Atul Wassan


... I cant think of anyone else but my hitlist

Unread 04-06-2010, 08:15 PM   #4
teacup
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Quote Originally Posted by SJS50 View Post
For tests in alphabetical order India's 10 best
  • Amarnath Mohinder
  • Azharuddin
  • Dravid Rahul
  • Gavaskar Sunil
  • Hazare Vijay
  • Manjrekar Vijay
  • Merchant Vijay
  • Sehwag Virender
  • Tendulkar Sachin
  • Vishwanath GR

Its a personal opinion :)
No Dilip Vengsarkar and VVS? Most people will put them ahead of Mohinder and Vijay Manjrekar.

Unread 04-07-2010, 01:02 AM   #5
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Dilip Vengsarkar ahead of Mohinder ?

Why Vengaskar -- I would put Kambli too ahead of Mohinder. jeeez!

Heck even VVS would find it hard in my list to get ahead of Mohinder.

Just to let you know where Mohinder stands -- The Best ALL TIME bowler the world has even seen -- when asked -- who the Best Batsman you ever bowled to? -- replied Mohinder Amarnath.

Unread 04-07-2010, 01:34 AM   #6
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Quote Originally Posted by teacup View Post
No Dilip Vengsarkar and VVS? Most people will put them ahead of Mohinder and Vijay Manjrekar.
You are absolutely right. . . here goes, , ,

Azharuddin
Dravid Rahul
Gavaskar Sunil
Hazare Vijay
Laxman VVS
Merchant Vijay
Sehwag Virender
Tendulkar Sachin
Vengasarkar Dilip
Vishwanath GR

Its the opinion of "most" people

Last edited by SJS50 : 04-09-2010 at 02:11 PM.
I think statistics are so popular because even total ignorance in the finer aspects of the game can go about masquerading as great analytical commentry armed with statistics - served neat (sometimes) but mostly mixed in an assortment of head-spinning cocktails

Unread 04-07-2010, 01:54 AM   #7
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Laxman is a joke

Unread 04-07-2010, 07:05 AM   #8
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Quote Originally Posted by SJS50 View Post
You are absolutely right. . . here goes, , ,

Azharuddin
Dravid Rahul
Gavaskar Sunil
Hazare Vijay
Laxman VVS
Merchant Vijay
Sehwag Virender
Tendulkar Sachin
Vengasarkar Dilip
Vishwanath GR

Its the opinion of most people
Glad that you agree but it would help if you explain your choices. I will tell you where I come from. I have seen Mohinder play but not Manjrekar. From what I have read/heard Manjrekar was the Rahul Dravid of his times and certainly deserves to be considered as one of the best batsmen from India. Mohinder in the early 80's was second best only to Gavaskar and in the opinion of Imran was better than Gavaskar against pace bowling. However, if you are comparing batsmen with what they have achieved over an entire career it would in my opinion be difficult to choose Manjrekar or Mohinder over DV or VVS. Considering that both DV and VVS have been mainstays in the Indian middle-order for 15 years and at their peak of their careers have been the very best in the world, it is not a surprise that many rank them higher.

Unread 04-07-2010, 08:12 AM   #9
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Tendlukar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Sehwag, Laxman, Hazare, Vishwanath, Amarnath, Merchant, Azharuddin,
May the fail be with you all.

Unread 04-07-2010, 03:42 PM   #10
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Quote Originally Posted by teacup View Post
Glad that you agree but it would help if you explain your choices. I will tell you where I come from. I have seen Mohinder play but not Manjrekar. From what I have read/heard Manjrekar was the Rahul Dravid of his times and certainly deserves to be considered as one of the best batsmen from India. Mohinder in the early 80's was second best only to Gavaskar and in the opinion of Imran was better than Gavaskar against pace bowling. However, if you are comparing batsmen with what they have achieved over an entire career it would in my opinion be difficult to choose Manjrekar or Mohinder over DV or VVS. Considering that both DV and VVS have been mainstays in the Indian middle-order for 15 years and at their peak of their careers have been the very best in the world, it is not a surprise that many rank them higher.
Mohinder Amarnath and Vijay Manjrekar were amongst the finest players of fast bowling ever. Coming from a country where there were no real fast bowlers and where fearless batting against top rank express bowling in helpful conditions was so very rare, they are high in my reckoning.

As I said in my original post it is a personal opinion. I wrote that specifically because I was aware that the choice would get the kind of response it got (not this last post of yours) and I have no inclination to justify my choice further. We can agree to disagree, cant we ? :-)
I think statistics are so popular because even total ignorance in the finer aspects of the game can go about masquerading as great analytical commentry armed with statistics - served neat (sometimes) but mostly mixed in an assortment of head-spinning cocktails

Unread 04-07-2010, 04:31 PM   #11
teacup
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Quote Originally Posted by SJS50 View Post
Mohinder Amarnath and Vijay Manjrekar were amongst the finest players of fast bowling ever. Coming from a country where there were no real fast bowlers and where fearless batting against top rank express bowling in helpful conditions was so very rare, they are high in my reckoning.

As I said in my original post it is a personal opinion. I wrote that specifically because I was aware that the choice would get the kind of response it got (not this last post of yours) and I have no inclination to justify my choice further. We can agree to disagree, cant we ? :-)
Was not trying to pick up an argument but just wanted to understand the reason behind the choices. That is all.

Unread 04-07-2010, 09:31 PM   #12
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Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwag

rest can fight it out....

Azhar, Laxman, GR VIshwanath, Hazare, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Ganguly

Unread 04-07-2010, 10:28 PM   #13
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I am surprised at people being surprised by Amearnath being ahead of likes of Vensarkar! Amarnath was one of the finest player of pace bowling His away record in WI is superb. If I am not wrong, his record in Pakistan (against 13 Pak players ) is pretty good too

Vensarkar is more like a FTB. His away record is pathetic. He has almost nothing to show apart from his hundreds at Lords. VVS is good but I wouldn't rate him ahead of Amarnath

Mohinder Amarnath

in WI
9T, 877 runs at 55, 2 100s,
in Pak
11T, 856 runs at 57, 4 100s

Away 37M, 3008 runs at 52, 9 100s


Dilip Vensarkar
in WI
11T, 449 runs at 25, 0 100s
in Pak
11T, 503 runs at 34, 0 100s

Away 62T, 3143 runs at 33, 4 100s (all in England)

Dilip Vensarkar has to be one of the most over-rated batsman of all time!

Unread 04-07-2010, 11:57 PM   #14
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Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
I am surprised at people being surprised by Amearnath being ahead of likes of Vensarkar! Amarnath was one of the finest player of pace bowling His away record in WI is superb. If I am not wrong, his record in Pakistan (against 13 Pak players ) is pretty good too

Vensarkar is more like a FTB. His away record is pathetic. He has almost nothing to show apart from his hundreds at Lords. VVS is good but I wouldn't rate him ahead of Amarnath

Mohinder Amarnath

in WI
9T, 877 runs at 55, 2 100s,
in Pak
11T, 856 runs at 57, 4 100s

Away 37M, 3008 runs at 52, 9 100s


Dilip Vensarkar
in WI
11T, 449 runs at 25, 0 100s
in Pak
11T, 503 runs at 34, 0 100s

Away 62T, 3143 runs at 33, 4 100s (all in England)

Dilip Vensarkar has to be one of the most over-rated batsman of all time!

I second that statement. BTW I have grown up listening to him bat and watching him. He was stylish and had his moments against England, but overall he is plain simple pathetic.

I don't even rate Azhar. And Azhar was far better than Vengsarkar as he had his good moments against the likes of Donald and even Kiwi Bowling and even Wasim and Co.

Unread 04-08-2010, 06:37 AM   #15
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Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
I am surprised at people being surprised by Amearnath being ahead of likes of Vensarkar! Amarnath was one of the finest player of pace bowling His away record in WI is superb. If I am not wrong, his record in Pakistan (against 13 Pak players ) is pretty good too

Vensarkar is more like a FTB. His away record is pathetic. He has almost nothing to show apart from his hundreds at Lords. VVS is good but I wouldn't rate him ahead of Amarnath

Mohinder Amarnath

in WI
9T, 877 runs at 55, 2 100s,
in Pak
11T, 856 runs at 57, 4 100s

Away 37M, 3008 runs at 52, 9 100s


Dilip Vensarkar
in WI
11T, 449 runs at 25, 0 100s
in Pak
11T, 503 runs at 34, 0 100s

Away 62T, 3143 runs at 33, 4 100s (all in England)

Dilip Vensarkar has to be one of the most over-rated batsman of all time!
If batting in India and England was that easy how come Amarnath averaged only 30 runs in these two countries? Pray, why couldn't the greatest Indian player of fast bowling average more than 11 runs against the WI in India during the 87/88 series when Vengsarkar averaged nearly 3 times (avg. 102) as anybody who played the entire series. Going by your logic it should have been much easier playing them in India than in WI?

Btw, the only away series victory (outside the subcontinent) for India in the 80s came about in England '86 because of one man who is according to you the most over-rated batsman of all time. Remember the Leeds Test match? In conditions as alien to India as it can possibly be he scored 102 out of a team total of 237 in the 3rd inning to set up the victory for India.

The point is not to malign Amarnath but considering selective performances and drawing conclusions based on that is a little stupid in my opinion.

Unread 04-08-2010, 06:45 AM   #16
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Quote Originally Posted by Mamu View Post
I second that statement. BTW I have grown up listening to him bat and watching him. He was stylish and had his moments against England, but overall he is plain simple pathetic.

I don't even rate Azhar. And Azhar was far better than Vengsarkar as he had his good moments against the likes of Donald and even Kiwi Bowling and even Wasim and Co.
...and the less said about your post the better.

Unread 04-08-2010, 01:02 PM   #17
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SJS - why did you take Amarnath off that list? I thought he would have been better than Vengsarkar, dont you think? Not questioning. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

Unread 04-08-2010, 01:05 PM   #18
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@ vortex... did u see my thread on Test series for the GODS? there are some interesting calculations u might like to see

Unread 04-08-2010, 01:26 PM   #19
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I just saw that roshanrocks and yes it is very fascinating. Exactly the kind of thing I visualized to do in that Stats Jugalbandhi thread. Working off factors and arriving at the weighted averages.

Unread 04-08-2010, 01:38 PM   #20
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only BB can do it... he has all the stats no? i did only one stat analaysis, the tendulkar vs mcgrath, donald, akhtar n got bored.... by the way did u see that one...? in the gavaskar thread... after that no one commented on the thread... i guess people lost interest

Unread 04-08-2010, 01:45 PM   #21
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I am not good with numbers, roshanrocks. I did see that interest with all the youtube videos as well. Great job with that! I can see it called for immense patience and dedication.

Unread 04-08-2010, 01:46 PM   #22
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yea... it took me 2 hours

Unread 04-08-2010, 08:26 PM   #23
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Quote Originally Posted by thevortex View Post
SJS - why did you take Amarnath off that list? I thought he would have been better than Vengsarkar, dont you think? Not questioning. Just trying to understand the reasoning.
Read the line under the list :-)
I think statistics are so popular because even total ignorance in the finer aspects of the game can go about masquerading as great analytical commentry armed with statistics - served neat (sometimes) but mostly mixed in an assortment of head-spinning cocktails

Unread 04-08-2010, 08:40 PM   #24
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Quote Originally Posted by teacup View Post
If batting in India and England was that easy how come Amarnath averaged only 30 runs in these two countries? Pray, why couldn't the greatest Indian player of fast bowling average more than 11 runs against the WI in India during the 87/88 series when Vengsarkar averaged nearly 3 times (avg. 102) as anybody who played the entire series. Going by your logic it should have been much easier playing them in India than in WI?

Btw, the only away series victory (outside the subcontinent) for India in the 80s came about in England '86 because of one man who is according to you the most over-rated batsman of all time. Remember the Leeds Test match? In conditions as alien to India as it can possibly be he scored 102 out of a team total of 237 in the 3rd inning to set up the victory for India.

The point is not to malign Amarnath but considering selective performances and drawing conclusions based on that is a little stupid in my opinion.
Well guys like Veeru don't do well against teams like BD so such phenomenan (where a guy does well against tougher oppononets/tough conditions) are hard to explain but Amarnath has shown that he is one of the best players of fast bowling around and that he is better than the likes of Vensarkar, imo. Saying that Vensarkar is over-rated doesn't mean that he is bad. As I said, Vensarkar was more of a FTB imo. His away record is simply pathetic (esp considering he has played 62 tests abroad). And those performances in Eng have already been acknowledged in my post you replied too! Those performances don't change anything for someone who has played 62 tests away. He is bound to do well in 4 or 5 tests considering that he was a good player.

And there is no point in bringing in 88 series against WI as Amarnath was past his best and in the last phases of his career. And Amarath is rated highly for his performances in the opposition's den

Unread 04-09-2010, 05:32 AM   #25
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Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
Well guys like Veeru don't do well against teams like BD so such phenomenan (where a guy does well against tougher oppononets/tough conditions) are hard to explain but Amarnath has shown that he is one of the best players of fast bowling around and that he is better than the likes of Vensarkar, imo. Saying that Vensarkar is over-rated doesn't mean that he is bad. As I said, Vensarkar was more of a FTB imo. His away record is simply pathetic (esp considering he has played 62 tests abroad). And those performances in Eng have already been acknowledged in my post you replied too! Those performances don't change anything for someone who has played 62 tests away. He is bound to do well in 4 or 5 tests considering that he was a good player.

And there is no point in bringing in 88 series against WI as Amarnath was past his best and in the last phases of his career. And Amarath is rated highly for his performances in the opposition's den
His career average at home against the WI is not much better either - only 16.

The truth of the matter is both Vengsarkar and Amarnath had lopsided home and away averages.

Unread 04-09-2010, 10:12 AM   #26
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Quote Originally Posted by transparent View Post
Laxman is a joke
...until we play a quality pace bowling attack in our next test match.

Unread 04-09-2010, 03:42 PM   #27
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Quote Originally Posted by teacup View Post
His career average at home against the WI is not much better either - only 16.

The truth of the matter is both Vengsarkar and Amarnath had lopsided home and away averages.
To make things simple, lets talk abt Amarnath and Vensarkar's performances in the tests that they have played together, i.e. 58 tests

in Australia
Amarnath - Avg 56, 100s 2
Vengsarkar - Avg 40, 100s 0

in Eng
A - Avg 30, 100s 0
V - Avg 58, 100s 1

in Ind
A - Avg 34, 100s 2
V - Avg 68, 100s 7

in NZ
A - Avg 36, 100s 0
V - Avg 14, 100s 0

in Pak
A - Avg 57, 100s 4
V - Avg 34, 100s 0

in SL
A - Avg 72, 100s 1
V - Avg 18, 100s 0

in WI
A - Avg Avg 60, 100s 2
V - Avg 28, 100s 0

In 58 tests that they have played together (means playing on same surfaces and against the same bowlers over 58 tests, which is a huge sample), Amarnath has shown that he is a better player. There is no way Vengy becomes becomes better just because he milked on flat tracks (which someone like Jaffar did as well in India)

You can be all surprised at people who think Jimmy is better and come up with stale arguments for Vengy but that doesnt change anything except showing that you need to sharpen your cricket knowledge

Unread 04-09-2010, 03:53 PM   #28
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Mohinder was the best player in two of the toughest series India ever played. 82/83 Pakistan where India had to counter Imran khan and their umpires and 83 series against WI in WI.
Problem with AMarnath was he was not consistent. He would score lot of runs and suddenly go through a drought. Vengy on the other hand had displayed phenomenal consistency around 1986 . He played 16 tests and made 1667 runs. He became wisdent cricketer of the year.
Hard to choose between them. But Mohinder lost his place very often coz of his inconsistency.
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Unread 04-09-2010, 04:03 PM   #29
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Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
To make things simple, lets talk abt Amarnath and Vensarkar's performances in the tests that they have played together, i.e. 58 tests

in Australia
Amarnath - Avg 56, 100s 2
Vengsarkar - Avg 40, 100s 0

in Eng
A - Avg 30, 100s 0
V - Avg 58, 100s 1

in Ind
A - Avg 34, 100s 2
V - Avg 68, 100s 7

in NZ
A - Avg 36, 100s 0
V - Avg 14, 100s 0

in Pak
A - Avg 57, 100s 4
V - Avg 34, 100s 0

in SL
A - Avg 72, 100s 1
V - Avg 18, 100s 0

in WI
A - Avg Avg 60, 100s 2
V - Avg 28, 100s 0

In 58 tests that they have played together (means playing on same surfaces and against the same bowlers over 58 tests, which is a huge sample), Amarnath has shown that he is a better player. There is no way Vengy becomes becomes better just because he milked on flat tracks (which someone like Jaffar did as well in India)

You can be all surprised at people who think Jimmy is better and come up with stale arguments for Vengy but that doesnt change anything except showing that you need to sharpen your cricket knowledge
You winky-winky is getting old. There is nothing in your post that disproves what I have said earlier. Both have lopsided home and away averages. A batsman is likely to play half of his matches in his home country and if you think an average of just 30 on those surfaces is relatively ok when compared to averaging about the same overseas, then it is just a matter of opinion and not a fact. Plus, you cannot say Vengsarkar can play only on Indian pitches when he has played better than anyone in English conditions. And kudos for the high opinion you have on Indian wickets.

Unread 04-09-2010, 04:30 PM   #30
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in SL
A - Avg 72, 100s 1
V - Avg 18, 100s 0
So Vengsarkar was much inferior to Amarnath in Sri Lanka, right ?

They played one series in SL. Amarnath missed the first Test due to injury. In this match, Vengsarkar played a 7 hour, 98 not out in the second innings, out of 251 all out, that saved India from certain defeat. Given another 20 minutes, SL would have won.

Amarnath's 116* in the same series came in a fairly benign wicket, with India in the lead and after Srikkanth had destroyed the Sri Lankan bowlers, and out of 325 for five.

Statistics without context.

Unread 04-09-2010, 05:37 PM   #31
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Quote Originally Posted by teacup View Post
You winky-winky is getting old. There is nothing in your post that disproves what I have said earlier. Both have lopsided home and away averages. A batsman is likely to play half of his matches in his home country and if you think an average of just 30 on those surfaces is relatively ok when compared to averaging about the same overseas, then it is just a matter of opinion and not a fact. Plus, you cannot say Vengsarkar can play only on Indian pitches when he has played better than anyone in English conditions. And kudos for the high opinion you have on Indian wickets.
Who said I am trying to disaprove you when what you said I already wrote in one of my post. The point is that both have their pros and cons but I think Amarnath is better for his performances against some of the best teams of his era in their back yards .... And more importantly, there is no need for ppl like you to get their ass worked up when someone says that Amarnath > Vengsarkar (as if he is not), when in the end you have to imply that whoever you pick is a matter of opinion (which is something you should have understood before being surprised at someone picking Amarnath over Vengsarkar)

Unread 04-09-2010, 05:41 PM   #32
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Quote Originally Posted by Tapioca View Post
So Vengsarkar was much inferior to Amarnath in Sri Lanka, right ?

They played one series in SL. Amarnath missed the first Test due to injury. In this match, Vengsarkar played a 7 hour, 98 not out in the second innings, out of 251 all out, that saved India from certain defeat. Given another 20 minutes, SL would have won.

Amarnath's 116* in the same series came in a fairly benign wicket, with India in the lead and after Srikkanth had destroyed the Sri Lankan bowlers, and out of 325 for five.

Statistics without context.
Those stats are for the games where both Jimmy and Vengy played together, i.e. playing on the same surfaces and against the same bowling attack. That was to do a direct head to head b/w them!

Since Amarnath missed that game (like you said), you can't assume he would have failed

Unread 04-09-2010, 05:49 PM   #33
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Here is my top 10 for tests (in no particular order)

- Gavaskar
- Tendulkar
- Dravid
- Sehwag
- Hazare
- Merchant
- Amarnath
- CK Naidu
-
-

For 9 and 10, there are quite a few options so it becomes harder to pick

Unread 04-09-2010, 05:50 PM   #34
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Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
Those stats are for the games where both Jimmy and Vengy played together, i.e. playing on the same surfaces and against the same bowling attack. That was to do a direct head to head b/w them!

Since Amarnath missed that game (like you said), you can't assume he would have failed
That is exactly what I am pointing out. It is supposedly fair statistics, but gives an extremely skewed impression of what really happened in the ground.

Unread 04-09-2010, 06:00 PM   #35
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Quote Originally Posted by Tapioca View Post
That is exactly what I am pointing out. It is supposedly fair statistics, but gives an extremely skewed impression of what really happened in the ground.
It doesn't because we have taken a huge sample of 58 tests where they played 'together'. And as I said that Amarnath missing a test doesn't imply that he would have failed. Also if Vensarkar only managed to average 18 in the remaining tests and if you are arguing that playing a 98* on a difficult wks shows that Vengy was on par/better than it only vindicates my point as to why performances in WI and Pak are rated so highly

Unread 04-09-2010, 06:45 PM   #36
teacup
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Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
Who said I am trying to disaprove you when what you said I already wrote in one of my post. The point is that both have their pros and cons but I think Amarnath is better for his performances against some of the best teams of his era in their back yards .... And more importantly, there is no need for ppl like you to get their ass worked up when someone says that Amarnath > Vengsarkar (as if he is not), when in the end you have to imply that whoever you pick is a matter of opinion (which is something you should have understood before being surprised at someone picking Amarnath over Vengsarkar)
Yeah right! Calling someone who served the country well for 15 years as an FTB just to express an opinion that Amarnath > Vengsarkar is pretty cool.

Unread 04-09-2010, 06:55 PM   #37
rett
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Quote Originally Posted by teacup View Post
Yeah right! Calling someone who served the country well for 15 years as an FTB just to express an opinion that Amarnath > Vengsarkar is pretty cool.
The term used was "more of an FTB" (than ....)

Unread 04-10-2010, 10:14 AM   #38
Temujin Khaghan
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most of the indian cricket journos are also like the fans who are mostly after romanticising the stylish cricketers over the players who were not so stylish but played gutsy cricket when it mattered. thats the problem with the indian cricket literature. you will find a lot of articles about how silky laxman and vishwanath are and not much about players like amarnath etc...
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