mancalledsting Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 It's obvious that I've punched above the intellectual capacity of some posters here. Let me come down to a level where you'll be comfortable. I concede Steve Smith is clearly the best, on the basis of him batting well against a bowling attack that lost 5-0 in the same conditions. top 3 batsmen ever !! 1. Steve smith 2. Sangakarra 3, jayawardene Yay! Link to comment
mancalledsting Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 hours ago, AmreekanDesi said: Clearly you don't understand much cricket if you're going to use such childish arguments cricket is not a linear game lol Lol I think you should take a look in the mirror.... whilst it's not a linear game, it shows that if a tail ender can amass 42, the batting conditions were not that hostile. Please think about what I'm even trying to say before making grandiose statements Link to comment
CG Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 I admire Smith for his Grit and Determination.He delivers When it Matters. Link to comment
surajmal Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 5 hours ago, AmreekanDesi said: Clearly you don't understand much cricket if you're going to use such childish arguments cricket is not a linear game lol If you were asked to elaborate on this assertion, what would you say? Link to comment
Khota Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Smith is great but currently he is feasting on sub par bowling. Link to comment
AmreekanDesi Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, surajmal said: If you were asked to elaborate on this assertion, what would you say? simply that because Team A beats B and team B beats C, its not necesary that A will beat C you can extrapolate same about players Edited November 26, 2017 by AmreekanDesi Link to comment
Vijy Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 On 11/25/2017 at 10:32 AM, mancalledsting said: I don't delete records altogether, I just add caveats and interpretation of figures. That's what you do in science when a research group presents you with data in a peer reviewed journal, you don't just follow it blindly but you look at the particulars pertaining to data collection at that point in time. I never just look at the data blindly. Your point is based on misinterpretation of what I'm trying to say (not saying you're doing it deliberately or venemously). I have no objection in saying Steve Smith had an excellent series in India earlier this year, some innings of which were in turning conditions. That's just plain fact- gotta be in serious denial to not agree with that. But I do have issue with extrapolating that like a simpleton and making superlative statements like he is the "superior player of spin bowling in turning conditions" when there's so much more to the story. I apply the same standard to Indian players and foreign players alike as evidenced by the following statements: 1. Sunny gavaskars series in the early 1970s vs West Indies should not be used as evidence of him being able handle the ATG pace West Indian attack in West Indian conditions 2. Matthew Hayden had a phenomenal series vs India in 2001 and he can be considered to be an ATG vs spin 3. Glen McGrath and dale steyn are clearly ATG quick bowlers- they have fantastic records in India against some of the ATG batsmen in their home conditions 4. Sehwag'a triple century vs pak in multan whilst an excellent achievement was seriously helped by dropped catches- as was karun nairs vs England my friend earlier this year told me KL Rahul will definitely bat well overseas because he scored a hundred at the SCG on debut. First thing I said was don't use that a categorical evidence as that SCG wicket was a patta and proves motion and that even shikhar dhawan has a test century in NZ. Btw- kl Rahul is one of my favourite players as evidence by my numerous posts backing him. the bottom line for me, I don't appreciate over hype of players, Indian or foreign as credit given should always been proportionate to that earned Yes, he did but I'm not sold on that Indian spin attack being truly high quality. Bhajji had a dream series but it was otherwise a very weak spin attack. The likes of Bahutule and whoever else bowled were pretty ordinary. Second, the Kolkata pitch was not too hard to bat on, and neither was the Chennai pitch in my opinion. I don't know if I would consider Hayden at ATG - I'd certainly consider him amongst the best of his generation. Link to comment
mancalledsting Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Vijy said: Yes, he did but I'm not sold on that Indian spin attack being truly high quality. Bhajji had a dream series but it was otherwise a very weak spin attack. The likes of Bahutule and whoever else bowled were pretty ordinary. Second, the Kolkata pitch was not too hard to bat on, and neither was the Chennai pitch in my opinion. I don't know if I would consider Hayden at ATG - I'd certainly consider him amongst the best of his generation. fair point Link to comment
mancalledsting Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 10 hours ago, surajmal said: If you were asked to elaborate on this assertion, what would you say? He would say "it's not linear when I want to make convoluted arguments" Link to comment
maniac Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 I hate making this into a Smith vs Kohli comparison but Smith in tests along with his magical average has played some clutch knocks even in tests case in point the current game where as haven’t seen many clutch knocks by Kohli in tests...The Adelaide test probably being the closest one. In ODIs sure Kohli is one of the greatest clutch players of all time especially in a chase but still the ICC knockouts where it matters he has failed...the CT 2013 was probably his best knocks...Smith on the other hand delivered in 3 World Cup knockout games which puts him right up there...overall in ODIS Kohli obviously but still Smith is not that far behind. in T20s Kohli is god...no one is even close to him...I am sure Smith is not even close to being the Top10 T20 bats in the world right now but again the weight given to T20s would be very less and Smith is not the worst T20 player atleast going by his IPL exploits especially the IPL final even though that is not a benchmark. He had to be almost at Cook or Trott level in this format for Kohli to edge ahead overall. Overall At this point Smith...but again sample size is too less....both have played only 2 WCs(was smith even in the squad in 2011?) but the sheer amount of clutch knocks and the godly test average puts Smith a little higher but Kohli has a chance to catch up especially if he delivers a series winning performance in SA will put him ahead. Once in a while it is good to look beyond pseudo patriotism and give credit where due. Smith is no.1 Kohli is 2nd and then there is a gap between these 2 & Root,Williamson,AB,Warner etc etc Cricketics and Laaloo 2 Link to comment
Cricketics Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 51 minutes ago, maniac said: I hate making this into a Smith vs Kohli comparison but Smith in tests along with his magical average has played some clutch knocks even in tests case in point the current game where as haven’t seen many clutch knocks by Kohli in tests...The Adelaide test probably being the closest one. In ODIs sure Kohli is one of the greatest clutch players of all time especially in a chase but still the ICC knockouts where it matters he has failed...the CT 2013 was probably his best knocks...Smith on the other hand delivered in 3 World Cup knockout games which puts him right up there...overall in ODIS Kohli obviously but still Smith is not that far behind. in T20s Kohli is god...no one is even close to him...I am sure Smith is not even close to being the Top10 T20 bats in the world right now but again the weight given to T20s would be very less and Smith is not the worst T20 player atleast going by his IPL exploits especially the IPL final even though that is not a benchmark. He had to be almost at Cook or Trott level in this format for Kohli to edge ahead overall. Overall At this point Smith...but again sample size is too less....both have played only 2 WCs(was smith even in the squad in 2011?) but the sheer amount of clutch knocks and the godly test average puts Smith a little higher but Kohli has a chance to catch up especially if he delivers a series winning performance in SA will put him ahead. Once in a while it is good to look beyond pseudo patriotism and give credit where due. Smith is no.1 Kohli is 2nd and then there is a gap between these 2 & Root,Williamson,AB,Warner etc etc Agree with the post, I do believe untill Kohli scores again in South Africa, where he has already done decent, and also does well in England, I will marginally put Root ahead of Kohli in test. Kohli is Ahead of Root in LOIs but I would put Smith --Root---Kohli for next three to six months. This is even after Kohli has smashed 4 double hundreds in last 6 series. I have to take into account that some of the toughest series are coming and we must wait before I put Kohli ahead of Root. Smith will stay number for at least another 15-18 months I feel or may be longer. I am already kind of worrying how we are going to get him out when we go there. From last to tours there have been two guys who have killed us big time, Michael Clarke and Smith, and Smith is still around and it might become real hard for us to get him out again as he seems to be getting better and better. Link to comment
Vijy Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, maniac said: I hate making this into a Smith vs Kohli comparison but Smith in tests along with his magical average has played some clutch knocks even in tests case in point the current game where as haven’t seen many clutch knocks by Kohli in tests...The Adelaide test probably being the closest one. In ODIs sure Kohli is one of the greatest clutch players of all time especially in a chase but still the ICC knockouts where it matters he has failed...the CT 2013 was probably his best knocks...Smith on the other hand delivered in 3 World Cup knockout games which puts him right up there...overall in ODIS Kohli obviously but still Smith is not that far behind. in T20s Kohli is god...no one is even close to him...I am sure Smith is not even close to being the Top10 T20 bats in the world right now but again the weight given to T20s would be very less and Smith is not the worst T20 player atleast going by his IPL exploits especially the IPL final even though that is not a benchmark. He had to be almost at Cook or Trott level in this format for Kohli to edge ahead overall. Overall At this point Smith...but again sample size is too less....both have played only 2 WCs(was smith even in the squad in 2011?) but the sheer amount of clutch knocks and the godly test average puts Smith a little higher but Kohli has a chance to catch up especially if he delivers a series winning performance in SA will put him ahead. Once in a while it is good to look beyond pseudo patriotism and give credit where due. Smith is no.1 Kohli is 2nd and then there is a gap between these 2 & Root,Williamson,AB,Warner etc etc One must differentiate between match-winners and batsmen who are technically complete (or very consistent). For instance, I'd call Sachin the most technically complete batsman of the past two generations (~ 30 yrs) during the majority of his career (1993-2011) but that doesn't make him the "best" or "greatest" batsman of his generation since Lara was probably more accomplished as a match winner. Another example is Chanders vs Lara; the latter was clearly the bigger match winner but the former was more consistent. Hence, when one makes a call on the "greatest" batsman, I believe that both aspects merit consideration. My top 5 in Tests among players currently playing now (not based on current form, but those who are currently in the team) is as follows. I have also chosen to ignore home/away distinctions for the most part since a win is a win. Match-winners: Stewie, Amla, Root, Williamson, VK (HTBs: Warner & Pujara) Most complete players: Stewie, ABDV, Williamson, Amla, VK (mention: Root) If we include players in current form, then I'd swap Amla and ABDV and bring in the ones inside the brackets. Edited November 27, 2017 by Vijy GoldenSun 1 Link to comment
New guy Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Yes he is... https://streamable.com/fsv5m Link to comment
CG Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 One must differentiate between match-winners and batsmen who are technically complete (or very consistent). For instance, I'd call Sachin the most technically complete batsman of the past two generations (~ 30 yrs) during the majority of his career (1993-2011) but that doesn't make him the "best" or "greatest" batsman of his generation since Lara was probably more accomplished as a match winner. Another example is Chanders vs Lara; the latter was clearly the bigger match winner but the former was more consistent. Hence, when one makes a call on the "greatest" batsman, I believe that both aspects merit consideration. My top 5 in Tests among players currently playing now (not based on current form, but those who are currently in the team) is as follows. I have also chosen to ignore home/away distinctions for the most part since a win is a win. Match-winners: Stewie, Amla, Root, Williamson, VK (HTBs: Warner & Pujara) Most complete players: Stewie, ABDV, Williamson, Amla, VK (mention: Root) If we include players in current form, then I'd swap Amla and ABDV and bring in the ones inside the brackets.I don't agree Sachin was not a match winner look at every indian victory Sachin has played a major role even with ball in crucial junctures. Link to comment
New guy Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 16 hours ago, Vijy said: One must differentiate between match-winners and batsmen who are technically complete (or very consistent). For instance, I'd call Sachin the most technically complete batsman of the past two generations (~ 30 yrs) during the majority of his career (1993-2011) but that doesn't make him the "best" or "greatest" batsman of his generation since Lara was probably more accomplished as a match winner. Another example is Chanders vs Lara; the latter was clearly the bigger match winner but the former was more consistent. Hence, when one makes a call on the "greatest" batsman, I believe that both aspects merit consideration. My top 5 in Tests among players currently playing now (not based on current form, but those who are currently in the team) is as follows. I have also chosen to ignore home/away distinctions for the most part since a win is a win. Match-winners: Stewie, Amla, Root, Williamson, VK (HTBs: Warner & Pujara) Most complete players: Stewie, ABDV, Williamson, Amla, VK (mention: Root) If we include players in current form, then I'd swap Amla and ABDV and bring in the ones inside the brackets. 16 hours ago, Vijy said: One must differentiate between match-winners and batsmen who are technically complete (or very consistent). For instance, I'd call Sachin the most technically complete batsman of the past two generations (~ 30 yrs) during the majority of his career (1993-2011) but that doesn't make him the "best" or "greatest" batsman of his generation since Lara was probably more accomplished as a match winner. Another example is Chanders vs Lara; the latter was clearly the bigger match winner but the former was more consistent. Hence, when one makes a call on the "greatest" batsman, I believe that both aspects merit consideration. My top 5 in Tests among players currently playing now (not based on current form, but those who are currently in the team) is as follows. I have also chosen to ignore home/away distinctions for the most part since a win is a win. Match-winners: Stewie, Amla, Root, Williamson, VK (HTBs: Warner & Pujara) Most complete players: Stewie, ABDV, Williamson, Amla, VK (mention: Root) If we include players in current form, then I'd swap Amla and ABDV and bring in the ones inside the brackets. Lara is hyped up because of one single Australia series. Sachin has things like an unbeaten 100 in the highest 4th innings chase in India and two brilliant innings in the only ODI series win we ever had in Australia and two back to back 100s in the first win against Australia outside India. But totally not a match winner Link to comment
mishra Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) On 26/11/2017 at 2:15 PM, Khota said: Smith is great but currently he is feasting on sub par bowling. And what about Root. Is He better than Smith? Bowlers are exploiting his susceptible lbw head position but I have a feeling that he is going to fix that by next couple of matches Edited November 27, 2017 by mishra Link to comment
SUMO Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I think in tests all 4 are at almost same level. Even kane (apparentll no.4) can go past smith if former has stellar and later has poor next 5-10 tests. Gap will widen when are 30-32 and played 120 tests. Link to comment
Vijy Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 hours ago, New guy said: Lara is hyped up because of one single Australia series. Sachin has things like an unbeaten 100 in the highest 4th innings chase in India and two brilliant innings in the only ODI series win we ever had in Australia and two back to back 100s in the first win against Australia outside India. But totally not a match winner lara is hyped up because he's lara. only those who have seen lara know lara. BeautifulGame and Gollum 2 Link to comment
Khota Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 7 hours ago, mishra said: And what about Root. Is He better than Smith? Bowlers are exploiting his susceptible lbw head position but I have a feeling that he is going to fix that by next couple of matches Let the series play out and then maybe we can tell. Link to comment
mishra Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 11 hours ago, Khota said: Let the series play out and then maybe we can tell. Actually Ponting compared this issue to himself. He said it is mind thing. Bowlers exploited his head position on days he wasnt batting well. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now