Indian Air Force lay exposed

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

Not really; thus far, the narrative is considerably pro-Pak from what I can gauge. Many sections of our own populace are siding with the Pak narrative. If Pakistan want to escalate they will escalate anyhow, with or without proof. We need them to have egg on their faces. Our credibility on the world stage is at stake. At the very least, we need to show some of the western countries in strict confidence and have them back our view.

I think we already did that with SS-1. Show select western countries in confidence the footage to establish credibility but let them have plausible deniability to have a route to de-escalate. We don't want a show of face contest with a weaker conventional but nuclear capable adversary. We want to accomplish our military objectives, give them room to PR-manuever and de-escalate. 

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

Any thoughts on how China will look at our Air Force now. 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said:

Any thoughts on how China will look at our Air Force now. 

i'd imagine it will be like playing russian roulette - pee their pants if its the Su-30s, laugh uncontrollably if its the MiG-21s

[zen]

From what I understand, the Mig 21s are equipped with advance laser guidance system and R 73 missiles .... But of course the AF would gain by modern planes .... Should have had a few Rafales by now if I am not wrong 

 

PS these are to be phased out starting this yr 

 

Here are 10 things to know about the MiG-21 Bison:

1. At least 110 MiG-21 jets were upgraded in 2006 to MiG-21 Bison. The upgrades include equipping it with powerful multi-mode radar, better avionics and communications systems.
2. From carrying 'dumb bombs', the MiG-21 Bison also got the ability to carry a wide range of guided munitions. Its air-to-air combat effectiveness also improved considerably after it was fitted with the R-73 Archer short range and R-77 medium range anti-aircraft missiles.
3. MiG-21 Bison pilots also get helmet-mounted sight, worn by pilots of other advanced jets like the Mirage 2000, the aircraft that dropped laser-guided bombs on a camp of the terror group Jaish-e-Mohammed in Balakot inside Pakistan on Tuesday morning.
4. With the upgrades, the MiG-21 Bison turned into a capable modern fighter jet that can stand up to challenges thrown in by the Pakistani F-16s. The Bison's beyond visual range missiles can lock on to Pakistani F-16s from a safe distance.
5. The MiG-21 is not a very large aircraft. In high speed, it has good chances of sneaking up to enemy planes from low altitude. It has a delta wing, similar to the Mirage 2000 and LCA Tejas, that makes it highly manoeuvrable in dogfights.
6. With the Indian Air Force, the MiG-21 saw action in the war with Pakistan in 1971 and in Kargil in 1999, flying strike missions and combat air patrols. A MiG-21 piloted by Squadron Leader PK Bundela took down a Pakistani Breguet Atlantic maritime patrol aircraft using a heat-seeking air-to-air missile over the Rann of Kutch in 1999, just after the Kargil conflict.
7. MiG-21s used by the vastly outnumbered air force of North Vietnam scored several kills against the more advanced US Air Force during the Vietnam War in the 1960s, with many MiG-21 pilots emerging as "flying ace", pilots who have shot down several enemy aircraft during dogfights.
8. India signed an agreement with the Soviet Union in 1962 to buy the MiG-21 and deliveries began the next year. In 1967, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) started making the first MiG-21 under a licence obtained from the Soviet Union. The country celebrated 50 years of the MiG-21 in 2013.
9. Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa has flown in the MiG-21. In May 2017, he led a four-aircraft 'Missing Man' formation in honour of the servicemen killed during the Kargil conflict.
10. The MiG-21 has seen several crashes over the years and has had its share of bad press. The MiG-21 Bison, which is the definitive variant of the legacy fighter, will start being phased out of the IAF from 2019 onwards.

 

link

Edited February 28, 2019 by zen

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

From what I understand, the Mig 21s are equipped with advance laser guidance system and R 73 missiles .... But of course the AF would gain by modern planes .... Should have had a few Rafales by now if I am not wrong 

You un-ignored me ? Wow.

Well, i don't care what the MiGs have - they are a 65 year old air-frame practically. You can dress up a ford Model-T as much as you wish, turbo-charge it, give it airconditioning....but it will still never be as good as a honda civic from 15 years ago. We don't have enough space in that plane for a modern radar and their handling characteristics are not user-friendly. 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You un-ignored me ? Wow.

Well, i don't care what the MiGs have - they are a 65 year old air-frame practically. You can dress up a ford Model-T as much as you wish, turbo-charge it, give it airconditioning....but it will still never be as good as a honda civic from 15 years ago. We don't have enough space in that plane for a modern radar and their handling characteristics are not user-friendly. 

yes, I did that recently 

 

I agree that we need modern planes 

[Dil Dil India]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

I think we already did that with SS-1. Show select western countries in confidence the footage to establish credibility but let them have plausible deniability to have a route to de-escalate. We don't want a show of face contest with a weaker conventional but nuclear capable adversary. We want to accomplish our military objectives, give them room to PR-manuever and de-escalate. 

I agree that achieving military objectives is of paramount importance, but we need to make sure we appear credible.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

yes, I did that recently 

 

I agree that we need modern planes 

[surajmal]

On a serious note, blame IAF leadership  (past and present) for not investing in R&D (particularly LCA) for their current MIG predicament. 

 

Yes, Bureaucrats and CONgis take the lionshare of the blame for their corruption and perfidy but IAF leadership is not clean. 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, surajmal said:

On a serious note, blame IAF leadership  (past and present) for not investing in R&D (particularly LCA) for their current MIG predicament. 

 

Yes, Bureaucrats and CONgis take the lionshare of the blame for their corruption and perfidy but IAF leadership is not clean. 

How much would IAF leadership say 10 years prior, helped move the process along at HAL ? Like i know they kept changing requirements for LCA and drove HAL insane. But at the same time, HAL is capable of churning out 8-10 aircrafts per year with their assembly line at full capacity. That is not adequate and would not have been 10 years prior. Wiki says that IAF is ready to order 110 LCAs...so by current HAL production rate that will be 10-15 years before we have 110 LCAs!! Whats stopping HAL from starting a second or third production line and how would prior engagement of IAF with HAL have helped that ?? 

[surajmal]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

How much would IAF leadership say 10 years prior, helped move the process along at HAL ? Like i know they kept changing requirements for LCA and drove HAL insane. But at the same time, HAL is capable of churning out 8-10 aircrafts per year with their assembly line at full capacity. That is not adequate and would not have been 10 years prior. Wiki says that IAF is ready to order 110 LCAs...so by current HAL production rate that will be 10-15 years before we have 110 LCAs!! Whats stopping HAL from starting a second or third production line and how would prior engagement of IAF with HAL have helped that ?? 

Being the sole customer for HAL products, it was not only their moral responsibility to the nation but also in their self interest. This problem is 20 years in the making. Their own making. Migs have been outdated for 30 yrs. So either they were/are incompetent or worse corrupt. Probably both. 

HAL has a union. They want to keep the production line open for as long as possible. If IAF isn't willing to commit to the couple of hundred more orders of LCA, HAL has no reason to cooperate. I mean IAF would rather buy a 70s era plane (in F16) than commit to a proper modern plane in LCA...  

[Muloghonto]

21 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Being the sole customer for HAL products, it was not only their moral responsibility to the nation but also in their self interest. This problem is 20 years in the making. Their own making. Migs have been outdated for 30 yrs. So either they were/are incompetent or worse corrupt. Probably both. 

HAL has a union. They want to keep the production line open for as long as possible. If IAF isn't willing to commit to the couple of hundred more orders of LCA, HAL has no reason to cooperate. I mean IAF would rather buy a 70s era plane (in F16) than commit to a proper modern plane in LCA...  

But at the same time, if HAL can only churn out 8-10 planes per year and IAF needs 200-ish, i can't blame them for looking outside and not wanting to wait 20 years to fill a need that they should've filled 10 years ago. 

[maniac]

28 minutes ago, surajmal said:

On a serious note, blame IAF leadership  (past and present) for not investing in R&D (particularly LCA) for their current MIG predicament. 

 

Yes, Bureaucrats and CONgis take the lionshare of the blame for their corruption and perfidy but IAF leadership is not clean. 

I knows this for a fact from close quarters. 

 

Army management is no different from a project management in any normal corporation.

 

Inflated budgets, funding, favoritism etc etc.

 

We Just over romanticize it because it is a noble profession.

 

 

 

[beetle]

Blame the Manmohan Singh government for not getting the new equipment required.

 

[beetle]

56 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Being the sole customer for HAL products, it was not only their moral responsibility to the nation but also in their self interest. This problem is 20 years in the making. Their own making. Migs have been outdated for 30 yrs. So either they were/are incompetent or worse corrupt. Probably both. 

HAL has a union. They want to keep the production line open for as long as possible. If IAF isn't willing to commit to the couple of hundred more orders of LCA, HAL has no reason to cooperate. I mean IAF would rather buy a 70s era plane (in F16) than commit to a proper modern plane in LCA...  

HAL is  incompetent.

They produce less and that also not upto the forces requirement and standard.

They expect the forces to make do with what they can produce and how they can produce.

[surajmal]

14 minutes ago, beetle said:

HAL is  incompetent.

They produce less and that also not upto the forces requirement and standard.

They expect the forces to make do with what they can produce and how they can produce.

You fight with what you have. Number 1 rule of warfare since antiquity. It took 23 yrs from first iteration to Gulf war 1 for F16 to become the plane it did. And thats US - a country with 100 years of aviation history. Clearly the smartasses in IAF think HAL should be able to cobble together a 5th gen AC in less than a decade. Oh actually, they only expect that from ADA, HAL, DRDO. To foreign vendors, they give plenty of latitude for post sale/delivery repairs/refit. How much flying time vs down time for Mig 29Ks again?

Indian armed forces seem to think, when its time for a real decisive war against Pak, Goras will simply let them use the equipment. Good luck with that. Hangar Queens. Enjoy posing in front of them and taking em out for joy rides. 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by surajmal

[surajmal]

46 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

But at the same time, if HAL can only churn out 8-10 planes per year and IAF needs 200-ish, i can't blame them for looking outside and not wanting to wait 20 years to fill a need that they should've filled 10 years ago. 

HAL churns out 8-10 because they want to recoup the initial investment - which for them is # of man hours they can stretch out of the line. Thats how public sectors companies function. 10 ACs/year or 30 ACs/yr, its a matter of scaling up. 

[beetle]

1 minute ago, surajmal said:

You fight with what you have. Number 1 rule of warfare since antiquity. It took 23 yrs from first iteration to Gulf war 1 for F16 to become the plane it did. And thats US - a country with 100 years of aviation history. Clearly the smartasses in IAF think HAL should be able to cobble together a 5th gen AC in less than a decade. Oh actually, they only expect that from ADA, HAL, DRDO. To foreign vendors, they give plenty of latitude for post sale/delivery repairs/refit. How many flying time vs down time for Mig 29Ks again?

Indian armed forces seem to think, when its time for a real decisive war against Pak, Goras will simply let them use the equipment. Good luck with that. Hangar Queens. Enjoy posing in front of them and taking em out for joy rides. 

 

 

No ...you fight with the best you can afford at the moment .

We don't completely depend on goras for equipment . We usually manufacture them or have air tight contracts .

 

You think Mirages are hanger queens?

They have paid back every penny we spent on them  .

 

[surajmal]

1 minute ago, beetle said:

No ...you fight with the best you can afford at the moment .

We don't completely depend on goras for equipment . We usually manufacture them or have air tight contracts .

 

You think Mirages are hanger queens?

They have paid back every penny we spent on them  .

  

Rehn de Aunty. You clearly don't understand how important a domestic military industrial complex is for the larger science/engineering setup of a 3rd world country. Those incharge for the decision making should be lined up and shot.

[beetle]

1 minute ago, surajmal said:

HAL churns out 8-10 because they want to recoup the initial investment - which for them is # of man hours they can stretch out of the line. Thats how public sectors companies function. 10 ACs/year or 30 ACs/yr, its a matter of scaling up. 

Bania ki dukaan nahi hai.

If they want to make planes for the Indian forces then they have to up numbers.

What investment..?

Govt organisation hai...fat cow that just takes in and doesn't deliver.

Union baazi hai...money is coming in ...to hell with accountability .