Popular Post express bowling Posted July 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) Not developing a strong enough middle order, when there was time on hand before the WC , was a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. And it did yesterday. And it is not an observation based on hindsight as everyone kept talking about this for 2 years now Kohli probably lacks the confidence to be a LOI captain without help from an experienced ex-captain. This led to him hanging on to. Dhoni way past his " sell by date ". And this resulted in Pant not being allowed to settle in, as Dhoni's position in the team would be questioned even more if a young keeper batsman does well. Why a non-keeper batsman was not allowed to settle in at No.4 is beyond me. ! Add to this, Kohli's faith in TTFs in the batting department instead of new talent. I keep hearing and reading that a bad 45 minutes cost us this Cup. Not true. A top order collapse, with the ball swinging, can always happen especially in England. Planning to counter that, by developing a good middle order, was not done Kohli is a defensive captain in LOIs despite his verbal bravado and pseudo aggressive body language on field. He prefers defensive pacers compared to wicket takers like Shami. We don't have a true wicket in the first 10 overs. This aspect contributed to yesterday's loss too. The ball was moving around and we managed to take just 1 wicket in the first 10 overs. Who knows, 239 was probably 20 or 30 runs too many given the conditions. Kohli, the LOI captain, would need a lot of luck to win big tournaments because he lacks confidence as a LOI captain, is not ruthless enough to take tough decisions, is defensive in his choice of pacers and chokes as a batsman in crucial LOI matches. Edited July 11, 2019 by express bowling Khota, ThePhenomenal1, Suhaan and 20 others 2 11 10 Link to comment
nevada Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 We have learnt nothing new in this world cup. We win when at-least one of the big 3 click. Otherwise we are sitting ducks. Even if we had lucked out and won the game yesterday, there's no way we would have won the final with this disastrous batting lineup. Unstable Joe, Norman, Shaz1 and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment
diga Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, express bowling said: I keep hearing and reading that a bad 45 minutes cost us this Cup. Not true. A top order collapse, with the ball swinging, can always happen especially in England. Planning to counter that, by developing a good middle order, was not done Shastri will be the fall guy if at all BCCI decides to act.. Dont think Kohli will step down from captaincy. They very well knew about the overnight rain & NZ's swing bowlers. The least they could have tried was to shuffle the batting order by promoting DK or Dhoni above Kohli express bowling 1 Link to comment
Popular Post express bowling Posted July 11, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) I was listening to Kohli's post match press conference. He kept on repeating that it is not possible to understand things from the outside or something to this effect. While it is true that commenting about things, when one does not have it do it himself, is far easier ... not all issues are totally unfathomable from the outside. This total disregard he seems to have, about other people and their opinions, is not a good quality to have as a leader of men. Moreover, while replying to a question about over-reaction of Indian fans ... he said that disappointment about losses and exuberance about wins should both be in moderation. While no one supports violent behaviours like stone pelting etc. by a handful of stupid fans, who is Kohli to dictate the emotions that is to be felt by fans !! People will be and should be as disappointed and as happy as they want to be ... as long as they are not breaking the law or harming others or themselves. People follow sports passionately because they feel that they themselves are playing through the superstars. When Sachin batted in the 1990s, the whole of India batted through him. This is the passion they felt. Why would any superstar want to stop this. !! Never seen any other Indian cricket superstar talk like this. Telling fans that they don't understand much about Indian cricket and telling them not to be passionate about cricket. It is like chopping the branch you are sitting on. Amazing. !! Cricket is not the only entertainment available to Indian people nowadays. And it has lost a lot of popularity from the 1980s and 1990s. We don't need the Indian cricket captain talking like this if the popularity of cricket is to be maintained. Edited July 11, 2019 by express bowling figo6762, Mosher, Norman and 13 others 2 2 12 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) On 7/11/2019 at 1:51 PM, express bowling said: I keep hearing and reading that a bad 45 minutes cost us this Cup. Not true. A top order collapse, with the ball swinging, can always happen especially in England. Planning to counter that, by developing a good middle order, was not done IF that was the case we shud never have dreamed of winning the cup Coz a day wud have come where 3 wud fail and that happens with every team in a tournament. Look at 2003 Aus , Matches against Eng n NZ were in bad situation and even against Pakistan where symonds bailed them out Look at aus today lost both their top scorer in a matter of no time This team was never going to win the Wc coz all the time and easy series were wasted so top 3 boost their stats and rest where never groomed. In 2011 Prepration sachin was taking a lot of rest which gave kohli a lot of time to set , and yuvi was dropped in last yr which gave raina time. Here pant played only 8 odi. One more point we got our batting order completely wrong- Kohli shud have never allowed dhoni to come so low. If he is good at consolodating he shud have gone at 4. Pant is inexp so high chances he wud have gotten out on 30-50 which is useful if less runs are needed . Same was the case with karthik he was being seen as finisher and when it was collapse he was send ahead . Another big problem with kohli is he cant back anyone be it good or bad choice kuldeep was struggling - had it been a captain like ganguly or dhoni they wud have backed him. Kulcha was kohli plan-A and he changed it in no time HE cant even back his bad choices like rayudu , rahane or rohit , dhawan in test Edited July 14, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03 Unstable Joe, Tendulkar1996, Rightarmfast and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, diga said: Shastri will be the fall guy if at all BCCI decides to act.. The Kumble episode showed us that the coach does not have much power in this setup. The show in LOIs is run by Kohli and Dhoni ... including squad selections. The selectors are puppets too in the hands of these 2 superstars. The original World Cup backup list had Pant and Rayudu as backup batsmen as per the selectors' statements. But they chose Mayank in the squad as the TM wanted it. While I like that choice personally, it does show that what the selectors think are not that important nevada, Mosher, Unstable Joe and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 39 minutes ago, diga said: Shastri will be the fall guy if at all BCCI decides to act.. Dont think Kohli will step down from captaincy. They very well knew about the overnight rain & NZ's swing bowlers. The least they could have tried was to shuffle the batting order by promoting DK or Dhoni above Kohli If anything its Kohli that has to step down and Rohit has to has to become captain . It shud be the end of Dhoni, DK, jadhav ..........has to has to be the end Shastri wasnt as big a problem as kohli Link to comment
express bowling Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 Legacies of teams and captains are built based on winning the really big tournaments and away test series against top teams. And the 50 over World Cup is the most important. Winning multiple bilateral LOI series or home test series can make a team or captain good but never great. With lots of really good batsmen and bowlers available to us, we lost a golden opportunity this time. Norman, Mosher and chewy 1 2 Link to comment
nevada Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, express bowling said: I was listening to Kohli's post match press conference. He kept on repeating that it is not possible to understand things from the outside or something to this effect. While it is true that commenting about things, when one does not have it do it himself, is far easier ... not all issues are totally unfathomable from the outside. This total disregard he seems to have, about other people and their opinions, is not a good quality to have as a leader of men. Moreover, while replying to a question about over-reaction of Indian fans ... he said that disappointment about losses and exuberance about wins should both be in moderation. While no one supports violent behaviours like stone pelting etc. by a handful of stupid fans, who is Kohli to dictate the emotions that is to be felt by fans !! People will be and should be as disappointed and as happy as they want to be ... as long as they are not breaking the law or harming others or themselves. People follow sports passionately because they feel that they themselves are playing through the superstars. When Sachin batted in the 1990s, the whole of India batted through him. This is the passion they felt. Why would any superstar want to stop this. !! Never seen any other Indian cricket superstar talk like this. Telling fans that they don't understand much about Indian cricket and telling them not to be passionate about cricket. It is like chopping the branch you are sitting on. Amazing. !! Cricket is not the only entertainment available to Indian people nowadays. And it has lost a lot of popularity from the 1980s and 1990s. We don't need the Indian cricket captain talking like this if the popularity of cricket is to be maintained. He and Shastri were talking quite a bit when we were batting. I was wondering what they were talking about so much. They must have discussed what lame excuses they can offer in the press conference. express bowling 1 Link to comment
Khota Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 All valid points by the op. Shastri as a coach does share some blame for looking ahead and not focussing on NZ game. Failure to develope backup openers was an issue too and were short of couple of middle order batsman. Blame to be shared by Kohli, Shastri and Selectors. express bowling 1 Link to comment
kohli Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: IF that was the case we shud never have dreamed of winning the cup Coz a day wud have come where 3 wud fail and that happens with every team in a tournament. Look at 2003 Aus , Matches against Eng n NZ were in bad situation and even against Pakistan where symonds bailed them out Look at aus today lost both their top scorer in a matter of no time This team was never going to win the Wc coz all the time and easy series were wasted so top 3 boost their stats and rest where never groomed. In 2011 Prepration sachin was taking a lot of rest which gave kohli a lot of time to set , and yuvi was dropped in last yr which gave raina time. Here pant played only 8 odi. One more point we got our batting order completely wrong- Kohli shud have never allowed dhoni to come so low. If he is good at consolodating he shud have gone at 4. Pant is inexp so high chances he wud have gotten out on 30-50 which is useful if less runs are needed . Same was the case with karthik he was being seen as finisher and when it was collapse he was send ahead . Another big problem big kohli is he cant back anyone be it good or bad choice kuldeep was struggling - had it been a captain like ganguly or dhoni they wud have backed him. Kulcha was kohli plan-A and he changed it in no time HE cant even back his bad choices like rayudu , rahane or rohit , dhawan in test He choose defensive bowlers bhuvi over shami. A wicket taker bowler is always better than defensive bowler Mosher, Soorma_Bhopali and express bowling 1 2 Link to comment
Khota Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, kohli said: He choose defensive bowlers bhuvi over shami. A wicket taker bowler is always better than defensive bowler Issue was the batting. If you cant score 250 you get to go home. Link to comment
raki05 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) There are people who still don't forget to remind that hey we lost but reached in sf/final. I mean same thing happening since 13 ct....we are the new chokers with a fake aggressive captain who jumps like monkey in dressing room, does mujra with pakistani after getting humiliated and then post emotional message on social media. Have you ever seen sachin, dravid or even dhongi doing such antics whether they won or loose. This guy has sales man in built and know more about marketing than winning something relevant. FFS how can you send a 21 year old when we were 5-3 where as a veteran of 4wc was warming his ass, isn't that the very reason which has been given 1000 times to justify his position in team the so called coLlapse prevention. Edited July 11, 2019 by raki05 chewy and mani sha 1 1 Link to comment
Rightarmfast Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Let's address the elephant in the room. Can anyone in this forum remember a single team ever, carrying 3 wicket keepers in the team? During our time,90's and early 2000's, a wicket keeper scoring runs was an extra brownie points. The nature of the game is such, that more often than not, you cannot rely on a wicket keeper to be your specialist batsman. DK and Pant have been wicket keepers through out. Have we run so short of batting talents in India that we carry 3 wicket keepers? And still use 45 yr + ch+ot to wicket keep for us? Couldnt the selectors find anything special in batters like Gill, Mayank etc to groom them for if not 2 yrs, atleast in the last 12 months? While I understand that a player like Jadhav could be good on a given day, but honestly, he never gives me the confidence of a player you could depend upon. Definitely, he is not a world cup material and offers zilch on a long term. Why ignore young players and have jadhav? If this is not nepotism and the effect of Dhongi, then what is? Must the captain and the coach not be held accountable to keep a fast bowler, who performed the best amongst all, away from the team in a crunch match, against a team he has a phenomenal record, in their own country? This point alone calls for a serious enquiry. And I mean serious. Theres definitely some wheeling dealing going on. A lot of people here wouldnt like me saying this, but within our hearts we all know that BCCI controls a hell lot of things, including the pitches Indian team plays on. I have no proof of saying this, but Indian team did get lucky with the kind of pitches they got initially. To think that they couldnt convert even after so much of influence, Kohli and Shastri must be fired. Dhoni should be kicked out as far as possible. These 3 are the biggest poison of team India. No player ever has been as toxic as these 3! diga, mani sha, chewy and 5 others 1 7 Link to comment
DGBOSS Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 4 hours ago, express bowling said: Not developing a strong enough middle order, when there was time on hand before the WC , was a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. And it did yesterday. And it is not an observation based on hindsight as everyone kept talking about this for 2 years now Kohli probably lacks the confidence to be a LOI captain without help from an experienced ex-captain. This led to him hanging on to. Dhoni way past his " sell by date ". And this resulted in Pant not being allowed to settle in, as Dhoni's position in the team would be questioned even more if a young keeper batsman does well. Why a non-keeper batsman was not allowed to settle in at No.4 is beyond me. ! Add to this, Kohli's faith in TTFs in the batting department instead of new talent. I keep hearing and reading that a bad 45 minutes cost us this Cup. Not true. A top order collapse, with the ball swinging, can always happen especially in England. Planning to counter that, by developing a good middle order, was not done Kohli is a defensive captain in LOIs despite his verbal bravado and pseudo aggressive body language on field. He prefers defensive pacers compared to wicket takers like Shami. We don't have a true wicket in the first 10 overs. This aspect contributed to yesterday's loss too. The ball was moving around and we managed to take just 1 wicket in the first 10 overs. Who knows, 239 was probably 20 or 30 runs too many given the conditions. Kohli, the LOI captain, would need a lot of luck to win big tournaments because he lacks confidence as a LOI captain, is not ruthless enough to take tough decisions, is defensive in his choice of pacers and chokes as a batsman in crucial LOI matches. A good last 2-3 years cost us the World Cup. express bowling 1 Link to comment
Vijy Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 On 7/11/2019 at 8:52 AM, Rightarmfast said: Let's address the elephant in the room. Can anyone in this forum remember a single team ever, carrying 3 wicket keepers in the team? During our time,90's and early 2000's, a wicket keeper scoring runs was an extra brownie points. The nature of the game is such, that more often than not, you cannot rely on a wicket keeper to be your specialist batsman. DK and Pant have been wicket keepers through out. Have we run so short of batting talents in India that we carry 3 wicket keepers? And still use 45 yr + ch+ot to wicket keep for us? Couldnt the selectors find anything special in batters like Gill, Mayank etc to groom them for if not 2 yrs, atleast in the last 12 months? While I understand that a player like Jadhav could be good on a given day, but honestly, he never gives me the confidence of a player you could depend upon. Definitely, he is not a world cup material and offers zilch on a long term. Why ignore young players and have jadhav? If this is not nepotism and the effect of Dhongi, then what is? Must the captain and the coach not be held accountable to keep a fast bowler, who performed the best amongst all, away from the team in a crunch match, against a team he has a phenomenal record, in their own country? This point alone calls for a serious enquiry. And I mean serious. Theres definitely some wheeling dealing going on. A lot of people here wouldnt like me saying this, but within our hearts we all know that BCCI controls a hell lot of things, including the pitches Indian team plays on. I have no proof of saying this, but Indian team did get lucky with the kind of pitches they got initially. To think that they couldnt convert even after so much of influence, Kohli and Shastri must be fired. Dhoni should be kicked out as far as possible. These 3 are the biggest poison of team India. No player ever has been as toxic as these 3! it's more like 3 keepers + 0.5 keepers each in KLR and jadhav. too much keeper fetishism. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Yes collapse happen but 4/24 was beyond reparable. It would have been a miracle had we won it from that position. After 4 out, you have just 3 batsman left, not enough in such dicey conditions. No one had even imagined Jaddu playing such an innings and take us close. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Vijy said: it's more like 3 keepers + 0.5 keepers each in KLR and jadhav. too much keeper fetishism. Pant was picked more as batsman less as wk. DK was Dhoni's backup. Rahul and KJ are part time keepers. Even Kohli can keep. England have YJB, Morgan, Butler WK. It doesn't matter whether they are wk or not if they are good enough to play as specialist batsmen alone. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 On 7/11/2019 at 6:22 PM, Rightarmfast said: Let's address the elephant in the room. Can anyone in this forum remember a single team ever, carrying 3 wicket keepers in the team? During our time,90's and early 2000's, a wicket keeper scoring runs was an extra brownie points. The nature of the game is such, that more often than not, you cannot rely on a wicket keeper to be your specialist batsman. DK and Pant have been wicket keepers through out. Have we run so short of batting talents in India that we carry 3 wicket keepers? And still use 45 yr + ch+ot to wicket keep for us? Couldnt the selectors find anything special in batters like Gill, Mayank etc to groom them for if not 2 yrs, atleast in the last 12 months? While I understand that a player like Jadhav could be good on a given day, but honestly, he never gives me the confidence of a player you could depend upon. Definitely, he is not a world cup material and offers zilch on a long term. Why ignore young players and have jadhav? If this is not nepotism and the effect of Dhongi, then what is? Must the captain and the coach not be held accountable to keep a fast bowler, who performed the best amongst all, away from the team in a crunch match, against a team he has a phenomenal record, in their own country? This point alone calls for a serious enquiry. And I mean serious. Theres definitely some wheeling dealing going on. A lot of people here wouldnt like me saying this, but within our hearts we all know that BCCI controls a hell lot of things, including the pitches Indian team plays on. I have no proof of saying this, but Indian team did get lucky with the kind of pitches they got initially. To think that they couldnt convert even after so much of influence, Kohli and Shastri must be fired. Dhoni should be kicked out as far as possible. These 3 are the biggest poison of team India. No player ever has been as toxic as these 3! Yes. England currently have YJB, Butler and Morgan. Also Pant was picked as batsman, not as a wk. DK was backup to Dhoni. All three are capable enough to play just as batsman. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 On 7/11/2019 at 6:22 PM, Rightarmfast said: Let's address the elephant in the room. Can anyone in this forum remember a single team ever, carrying 3 wicket keepers in the team? During our time,90's and early 2000's, a wicket keeper scoring runs was an extra brownie points. The nature of the game is such, that more often than not, you cannot rely on a wicket keeper to be your specialist batsman. DK and Pant have been wicket keepers through out. Have we run so short of batting talents in India that we carry 3 wicket keepers? And still use 45 yr + ch+ot to wicket keep for us? Couldnt the selectors find anything special in batters like Gill, Mayank etc to groom them for if not 2 yrs, atleast in the last 12 months? While I understand that a player like Jadhav could be good on a given day, but honestly, he never gives me the confidence of a player you could depend upon. Definitely, he is not a world cup material and offers zilch on a long term. Why ignore young players and have jadhav? If this is not nepotism and the effect of Dhongi, then what is? Must the captain and the coach not be held accountable to keep a fast bowler, who performed the best amongst all, away from the team in a crunch match, against a team he has a phenomenal record, in their own country? This point alone calls for a serious enquiry. And I mean serious. Theres definitely some wheeling dealing going on. A lot of people here wouldnt like me saying this, but within our hearts we all know that BCCI controls a hell lot of things, including the pitches Indian team plays on. I have no proof of saying this, but Indian team did get lucky with the kind of pitches they got initially. To think that they couldnt convert even after so much of influence, Kohli and Shastri must be fired. Dhoni should be kicked out as far as possible. These 3 are the biggest poison of team India. No player ever has been as toxic as these 3! Indian team got few of the worst pitches in this tournament. What you smoking! Switchblade 1 Link to comment
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