India cap is not cheap- players like Dube devalue it

[sandeep]

Just now, rtmohanlal said:

yes ...  that is  really  unwanted &  strange to blame these rookies...

Its confirmation bias, that's all.  Any and all outcomes are used to justify a pre-existing opinion.  

[Ankit_sharma03]

@maniac- n all this is good for argument that these players are no symonds, kapil dev  n all but in practicality u need a solution . U need players for those slots and there back ups to. 

 

At the end u need to put team on ground ....so whats ur plan who are ur players for lower order role- i really hope ur plan isnt to play gill, shaw in that role. 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

yes ...  that is  really  unwanted &  strange to blame these rookies... On a parallel note it would be better of  these experts  to examine as to how the likes of Warner/Finch goes about  their business in T20s. Dhawan is no match for  these type of batsmen in T20s.

Dhawan bats very unselfishly in ODI  cricket.  He has to bear the burden of carrying the scoring rate due to Rohit "200" Sharma's ganguly style slow starts.  But to be bluntly harsh - Dhawan simply isn't that good in T20.  

 

Its a resource management thing - you have to understand that Dhawan's T20 IPL price will collapse to 1/10th if he is not in the Indian team.  And he obviously wants to play for India.  I suspect this is part of the reason why even Rahane was carried in the Indian T20 team far too long, even though he was a total misfit.  I feel the team management uses T20 selection as a carrot at times to reward certain players for loyalty etc.  

[Suhaan]

This was his debut match,i think we shouldn't run ourselves to some conclusion ,for now(lets find out after he plays few matches)

Edited November 3, 2019 by Suhaan

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

This was his debut match,i think we shouldn't run ourselves to some conclusion ,for now(lets find out after he plays few matches)

That to its very tough to come n score on such a sticky wkt where ball wasnt coming on bat 

[maniac]

33 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

@maniac- n all this is good for argument that these players are no symonds, kapil dev  n all but in practicality u need a solution . U need players for those slots and there back ups to. 

 

At the end u need to put team on ground ....so whats ur plan who are ur players for lower order role- i really hope ur plan isnt to play gill, shaw in that role. 

I am glad we can have a constructive debate, not like the other jingoistic coeunt  who tomorrow will play the devil's advocate and spew bs. take his arguments with a pinch of salt.

 

Now coming back to topic, we remember Sachin as the attacking opener but we forget he started his career as a No.6 and would help us accelerate towards the end along with Kapil, More. Kapil is obviously a once in a gen cricketer, so now don't highlight his name as a point.

 

You keep saying that Yuvraj,Raina had flaws which is true but tell me who is more reliable a guy like Raina,Yuvi or someone like Pandya bros and Shankar in a 80/4 type situation?

 

Let us look at who won their teams T20's.

 

Irfan,Sreeshanth,Yuvraj,Rohit,RP,Dhoni,Uthappa,Gambhir- All specialists. Yuvraj and Pathan were not in for their all round ability, it was a bonus. The only allrounder Joginder was a butt of all jokes and was the biggest fluke ever in cricket.

 

2009 and 2010- I tuned out once India got knocked out, but we got screwed because of Jadeja the allrounder. Raina,Rohit,Yuvraj all shone in the tournament in flashes. I guess you can say Afridi played an important role for Pak I will give you that and in 2010 I don't even know who was the star performer. I am assuming KP who is a specialist.

 

in 2012, Samuels was the guy who won them the cup. Guess what a specialist and Narine was the other star. the bits and pieces didn't come off.

 

In 2014 and 2016, Kohli was the only star whereas guys like Jadeja and Pandya were mere passengers. Again guess the common thread who won the games for their teams Samuels,Malinga,Sangakkara etc. Yeah you might bring up Brathwaite but that was a fluke only made possible by Samuel a specialist proper bat at the other end.

Edited November 3, 2019 by maniac

[maniac]

22 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

This was his debut match,i think we shouldn't run ourselves to some conclusion ,for now(lets find out after he plays few matches)

I am not writing him off on today’s game.my problem was him getting selected and getting a ride in the team

[Ankit_sharma03]

19 minutes ago, maniac said:

I am glad we can have a constructive debate, not like the other jingoistic coeunt  who tomorrow will play the devil's advocate and spew bs. take his arguments with a pinch of salt.

 

Now coming back to topic, we remember Sachin as the attacking opener but we forget he started his career as a No.6 and would help us accelerate towards the end along with Kapil, More. Kapil is obviously a once in a gen cricketer, so now don't highlight his name as a point.

That was unfair to sachin ....we shudnt do that to gill , shaw . 

Those days the target those guys had to reach was different then today

Quote

You keep saying that Yuvraj,Raina had flaws which is true but tell me who is more reliable a guy like Raina,Yuvi or someone like Pandya bros and Shankar in a 80/4 type situation?

In early part of career none were reliable ....yuvi stats till 5-6 yrs were highly inconsistent . 

The perception of reliability comes coz of their work for 15 yrs

 

Quote

 

Irfan,Sreeshanth,Yuvraj,Rohit,RP,Dhoni,Uthappa,Gambhir- All specialists. Yuvraj and Pathan were not in for their all round ability, it was a bonus. The only allrounder Joginder was a butt of all jokes and was the biggest fluke ever in cricket.

N the same guys cudnt repeat that feat again

Reason - in 1st t20 most teams didnt knew what was happening .  

 

Neways Hardik Dube fall under specialist hitter which is a specialist role........no gill, shaw, mayank is better at 6,7 then hardik 

 

Quote

2009 and 2010- I tuned out once India got knocked out, but we got screwed because of Jadeja the allrounder. Raina,Rohit,Yuvraj all shone in the tournament in flashes. I guess you can say Afridi played an important role for Pak I will give you that and in 2010 I don't even know who was the star performer. I am assuming KP who is a specialist.

2009-10 was failure of all specialist not alone jadeja 

 

Quote

in 2012, Samuels was the guy who won them the cup. Guess what a specialist and Narine was the other star. the bits and pieces didn't come off.

Didnt WI side had all rounders....

Specialist wins u games doesnt mean teams dnt have all rounder

Quote

In 2014 and 2016, Kohli was the only star whereas guys like Jadeja and Pandya were mere passengers. Again guess the common thread who won the games for their teams Samuels,Malinga,Sangakkara etc. Yeah you might bring up Brathwaite but that was a fluke only made possible by Samuel a specialist proper bat at the other end.

Jadeja was never good in t20

Pandya didnt even get to bat in most games.....Werent dhawan, rohit , raina mere passengers in that t20 Wc as well. They batted in all innings....ur just highliting all rounders failure whereas even specialist fail as much 

 

How long will u keep using word fluke- At 6,7 u hardly get opp and when u do u cant perform every time and when they do u cant call fluke....

 

Since ur giving example

Afridi was an all rounder who helped pak win 2009 t20 Wc

Russell played damn good innings against us in Semi in 2016 Wc 

 

 

So where does it say that all rounders have gone out of buss in t20.....every team plays them. Look at the impact pandya bros have for MI n Russell for KKR, 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Suhaan]

3 minutes ago, maniac said:

I am not writing him off on today’s game.my problem was him getting selected and getting a ride in the team

T20s need innovation which we have always lacked

I think we should let Pant open with Hitman or Rahul,dhawan is done in t20s we should move on

Dube needs to play  few more, this pitch was sluggish , I thought he as a debutant had some difficulty while manufacturing shots,we(TM) need to give these guys some security

[maniac]

also @Ankit_sharma03 you are confusing me with Khota’s argument that allrounders don’t exist. I never said that. If we have a freakish hitter like Russell or Maxwell absolutely get them in.

 

I have a problem with getting fake watered down versions of these.

 

Its like getting salvi in the team ahead of other deserving players because he bowls with the same action like Mcgrath

[sandeep]

34 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

T20s need innovation which we have always lacked

I think we should let Pant open with Hitman or Rahul,dhawan is done in t20s we should move on

Dube needs to play  few more, this pitch was sluggish , I thought he as a debutant had some difficulty while manufacturing shots,we(TM) need to give these guys some security

Pant should open in T20 no question.  Pair him with a right hander - either of Rohit or KL would do, although I would prefer KL, and have Ro bat #4 as he does for his IPL team.  

 

For the T20 WC - 

 

Rishabh

KL

Virat

Rohit

Hardik

Shreyas Iyer / Ishan Kishan / ??

Sundar

Krunal/Nitish/ ??

Bhuvi

Bumrah

Chahal

 

12th: Samson, 

Bench: Kuldeep, Jaddu ( for fielding sub), Shami? 

 

Ideally it would be nice if we only allocate 2 slots to bowlers, and replace Bhuvi/Chahal with an equally effective bowler who can tonk it a bit. But both of those guys are top shelf with ball.  But no more than 3 specialist bowlers in any T20 game from here till the T20 WC.  

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

also @Ankit_sharma03 you are confusing me with Khota’s argument that allrounders don’t exist. I never said that. If we have a freakish hitter like Russell or Maxwell absolutely get them in.

These 2 didnt become what they are overnite....maxwell still has to be one of the inconsistent going around the world . Aussies are till waiting for they day he realises his potential 

 

We have it or not but need is there we can only play watever best we have . Simple thing we cant play specialist like gill, shaw, at 6,7 u need diff set of ability n game and dube, pandya bros are the best have like it or not 

 

Most teams dnt have a top3 like us doesnt mean they wont play with watever best they have. In 80-90s we had srinath, kapil only didnt mean we stopped playing other fast bowlers just becoz they werent of quality of other teams fast bowlers. Just Becoz SL wont get another murali doesnt mean they ll stop playing spinners

1 minute ago, maniac said:

I have a problem with getting fake watered down versions of these.

To early to decide that .....

Krunal has done very well in his short career.....everyone fails so will he 

Hardik has his place

Dube discussion shud come after 10 games 

 

If not them we will go back to DK, Jaddu 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Pant should open in T20 no question.  Pair him with a right hander - either of Rohit or KL would do, although I would prefer KL, and have Ro bat #4 as he does for his IPL team.  

But Rohit hasnt done well at 4 in IPL in last few yrs n after opening for long i think it wud be tough for him to change the role

I wud stick to pant at 5....coz we have enough options for top order but when it comes to middle or lower order we dnt have many options

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

 

Bench: Kuldeep, Jaddu ( for fielding sub), Shami? 

Deepak chahar is better then shami, shami like dhawan, jaddu has been off when it comes to t20s 

Chahar has been very impressive in his chances in t20s

 

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

But Rohit hasnt done well at 4 in IPL in last few yrs n after opening for long i think it wud be tough for him to change the role

I wud stick to pant at 5....coz we have enough options for top order but when it comes to middle or lower order we dnt have many options

Deepak chahar is better then shami, shami like dhawan, jaddu has been off when it comes to t20s 

Chahar has been very impressive in his chances in t20s

 

I actually want to see Pant opening even in ODIs.  I don't like this seniority driven pigeon-holing of new players down the order.  Veeru started at #6 too in ODIs, but his attacking potential was recognized and given a chance at the top of the order.  

 

Rishabh could potentially be as effective at the top as QdK is for SA.  And that automatically solve India's #4 problem by shifting Virat there.  But the queue for a top order ODI spot is very crowded, but with some studly talent.  

 

Top order white ball batsmen make 10x the endorsement cash as the rest.  Everybody wants to be that guy.  Nobody wants to be the next Suresh Raina.  

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Pant should open in T20 no question.  Pair him with a right hander - either of Rohit or KL would do, although I would prefer KL, and have Ro bat #4 as he does for his IPL team.  

 

For the T20 WC - 

 

Rishabh

KL

Virat

Rohit

Hardik

Shreyas Iyer / Ishan Kishan / ??

Sundar

Krunal/Nitish/ ??

Bhuvi

Bumrah

Chahal

 

12th: Samson, 

Bench: Kuldeep, Jaddu ( for fielding sub), Shami? 

 

Ideally it would be nice if we only allocate 2 slots to bowlers, and replace Bhuvi/Chahal with an equally effective bowler who can tonk it a bit. But both of those guys are top shelf with ball.  But no more than 3 specialist bowlers in any T20 game from here till the T20 WC.  

I wud like to have these options

 

Openers- KL, Rohit.....backup plan - Samson, Shaw

3- kohli.....(position not to be touvhed)

4- iyer- (have KL , samson as backup, if not keep pant, hardik as option)

5. Pant- ( Samson, kishen backup, even KL can keep n allow to get someone like SKY in mix)

6. Krunal/Dube (M not to confident about nitish as of now, if dube fails we can try sky here to only problem he doesnt bowl )

7. Hardik 

8. Deepak Chahar

9. Bhuvi

10. Bumrah

11. Chahal 

 

Bench

12. Kuldeep- if he gets his form back or else i dnt knw 

13. Saini- he wud enjoy bowling on Aus wkts 

 

[Khota]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

that was captain coach fault

They invested in guys like DK n rayudu who were proven failure n gave them all time.....when WC came close rayudu sucked big time n no option was left . TM is suppose to identify youngsters n gave them enough chances

Shankar was at right time right place n he perfomed in NZ n Aus series so it wasnt that he didnt perform n earn

Shankar had no tangible international experience. He did not deserve it.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, sandeep said:

I actually want to see Pant opening even in ODIs.  I don't like this seniority driven pigeon-holing of new players down the order.  Veeru started at #6 too in ODIs, but his attacking potential was recognized and given a chance at the top of the order.  

 

Rishabh could potentially be as effective at the top as QdK is for SA.  And that automatically solve India's #4 problem by shifting Virat there.  But the queue for a top order ODI spot is very crowded, but with some studly talent.  

  

Not about seniority but i knw Rohit will not work in middle which means another struggling player. Atleast Kohli n Rohit are solved in that puzzle...If pant opens that means Rahul n iyer might be pushed down which wont be fair. Rohit also bats very well in Aussie conditions so i wudnt want him to put in such position where u loose his impact as player

 

Virat at 4 will also not work.....hasnt worked for India n RCB in t20. Virat needs time and he has been best player in last 3 t20 Wc so why change what working. Even in ODI no one will be as good as virat at 3, virat wnt be as effective on 4 as he is on 3. 

 

Rohit n Virat position shudnt be touched as of now coz it has worked n worked wonders.

 

Dhoni cud have batted up the order n pilled on runs but batted in lower order coz not many cud and even raina. Likewise pant as much as he deserves promotion is better in middle coz we dnt have many options n Rohit n kohli wnt be that effective neither pant will be as consistent as those 2. 

 

In t20 we can try in one series making pant open but that wud open one slot in lower middle order

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, Khota said:

Shankar had no tangible international experience. He did not deserve it.

Players who had exp- Rayudu, Rahane, yuvi were pretty **** so it had to be newcomer. 

If not shankar it wud have been pandey, iyer who also doesnt have much experience

 

So it was a last minute call n shankar did well in those given chances, rayudu didnt..........thats how it works 

[Khota]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Players who had exp- Rayudu, Rahane, yuvi were pretty **** so it had to be newcomer. 

If not shankar it wud have been pandey, iyer who also doesnt have much experience

 

So it was a last minute call n shankar did well in those given chances, rayudu didnt..........thats how it works 

If Raydu was playing India would be playing the finals.

[Ankit_sharma03]

11 minutes ago, Khota said:

If Raydu was playing India would be playing the finals.

ghanta

ball was jagging around..... rayudu was never a good player of fast bowling. Twice he went to aus n was a fish out of water, in IPL jason beherndoff made him dance . 

 

Shankar neways didnt play Semi final it was DK who played n failed and DK had far better technique then Rayudu . Rayudu was woefully out of form that year. Only chance rayudu wud have done well was if opp was SL or BANG coz their fast bowlers werent as testing and their spinners were something that rayudu enjoyed

Edited November 3, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03