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SecondSlip

Is a 6th bowling option really that important?

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Do we really need 6 bowling options when it comes to white ball cricket? Why can’t we just play with 4 wicket takers + 1 allrounder. Tell them that you are bowling your full quota no matter what. 
 

This obsession with having a sixth bowling option has led us to give countless chances to mediocrity like Kedar Jadhav. We even picked an undeserving Vijay Shankar for the World Cup because he could bowl. I won’t comment on Dube because he needs to play more. 
 

Rather than having a bits and pieces cricketer in the side, I’d rather pick another specialist batsman at #6 like Suryakumar Yadav or Nitish Rana. A specialist batsman can help pull the team out of trouble if we are 100-4, while a bite and pieces player will return back to the pavilion sooner or later!

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yes it, coz its 50 overs and u just cant have only 5 options. Good teams always have plan B n C

 

  • on days someone can really have an off day
  • on field injury- dont tell me it cant happen. In last 1-2 years we have had own field injuries

 

Every team has it . Jadhav did his job till a point, on days he bowled very well. 

If anything this team is ignoring 6th bowling which will bite us one day very bad

 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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Chances of on field injury are also high these days as players give 100% in field

Rohit n dhawan recently got hurt in field 

 

The day one bowler gets injured n part timer like iyer, rohit, kohli who dont even bowl in nets , in the era of small grounds, 2 new balls, heavy bats will get a thrashing of life time

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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5 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Chances of on field injury are also high these days as players give 100% in field

Rohit n dhawan recently got hurt in field 

 

The day one bowler gets injured n part timer like iyer, rohit, kohli who dont even bowl in nets , in the era of small grounds, 2 new balls, heavy bats will get a thrashing of life time

If your top 4 bowlers are getting thrashed than can’t expect a 6th bowler to miraculously run through opposition. 
 

You need 4 proper bowlers and 2 batsmen who can roll their arm over.

 

If your 5th bowler is a competent bowler himself than bonus and of your 6th bowler can get away a couple of overs that is a super bonus.

 

You don’t field a team with the fear that someone might get injured. That’s a beauty of cricket, if there is a freak accident it makes it that much more special if a team manages to pull it off.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:

If your top 4 bowlers are getting thrashed than can’t expect a 6th bowler to miraculously run through opposition. 

 

No u shudnt but one some days they come through

jadhav has on days bowled better then many of our main bowlers

nyways 6th bowler job is for safety net not to run through sides

1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:


 

You need 4 proper bowlers and 2 batsmen who can roll their arm over.

agreed but one of 2 batsman shud be able to give 10 overs or both shud be capable of giving 7 each 

Like aus cant go with just smith n labshune as options they ll need a stonis or marsh or agar who can give around 7-10 over consistently 

1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:

 

If your 5th bowler is a competent bowler himself than bonus and of your 6th bowler can get away a couple of overs that is a super bonus.

 

You don’t field a team with the fear that someone might get injured. That’s a beauty of cricket, if there is a freak accident it makes it that much more special if a team manages to pull it off.

 

 

these days u have to specially with the pattern of injuries in last few years its foolish to ignore

  • pandya asia cup- jadhav was there
  • bhvi Wc pak game- shankar was there
  • pandya Wc semi game- no one was there so he had to bowl with hamstring
  • bumrah twisted his ankle today, saini got injured in 2nd game aussie
  • dhawan n rohit injured in field recently

 

look at the number of injuries on field, u cant ignore this ....no team does 

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1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No u shudnt but one some days they come through

jadhav has on days bowled better then many of our main bowlers

nyways 6th bowler job is for safety net not to run through sides

agreed but one of 2 batsman shud be able to give 10 overs or both shud be capable of giving 7 each 

Like aus cant go with just smith n labshune as options they ll need a stonis or marsh or agar who can give around 7-10 over consistently 

these days u have to specially with the pattern of injuries in last few years its foolish to ignore

  • pandya asia cup- jadhav was there
  • bhvi Wc pak game- shankar was there
  • pandya Wc semi game- no one was there so he had to bowl with hamstring
  • bumrah twisted his ankle today, saini got injured in 2nd game aussie
  • dhawan n rohit injured in field recently

 

look at the number of injuries on field, u cant ignore this ....no team does 

This is not soccer. Obviously fielding you have subs but if your bat or bowler is injured you have to suck it up and go with it.

 

Bhuvi was injured in a crucial game vs Pak and we had guys like Shami on bench who couldn’t do anything. That made the win even more sweeter. We won by 7 wickets vs Aus with Dhawan injured. That’s the nature of the game. 

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6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

This is not soccer. Obviously fielding you have subs but if your bat or bowler is injured you have to suck it up and go with it.

u cant think like that in a pressure WC game....the day it bites u like in 2011 Ind-ENG lords test it hurts for a long time

Quote

Bhuvi was injured in a crucial game vs Pak and we had guys like Shami on bench who couldn’t do anything. That made the win even more sweeter. We won by 7 wickets vs Aus with Dhawan injured. That’s the nature of the game. 

on bench is the keyword.....shankar was in game or else someone like rohit, kohli wud have had to bowl n thats where opp gets in. 

Having a backup plan is better then to have an ego of winning with 10 men , no team thinks like that coz all it take wud one defeat n tournament over

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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On paper, I prefer the combination below:

 

  • 4 specialist batsmen
  • 3 ARs: 1 batting AR + 1 bowling AR + 1 WK AR
  • 4 specialist bowlers

4+3+4

 

In practice, it can vary based on the following factors:

  • form of the players in the 11
  • the difference in quality b/w the 6th specialist batsman and batting AR
  • the difference in quality b/w the the 5th specialist bowler and bowling AR
  • whether youngsters are being developed 
  • availability of batsmen who can bowl if required 

 

In T20s, I can probably make a blanket statement and go with 4+3+4. In ODIs, the combination can be reviewed per the current situation 

 

Edited by zen

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1 hour ago, SecondSlip said:

Rather than having a bits and pieces cricketer in the side, I’d rather pick another specialist batsman at #6 like Suryakumar Yadav or Nitish Rana. A specialist batsman can help pull the team out of trouble if we are 100-4, while a bite and pieces player will return back to the pavilion sooner or later!

In ODIs, you will probably need an ATG national team level batsman to pull you out of 100/4 situation esp. if setting or chasing an above par score :lol: 

 

PS I recall the Natwest 2002 final where Ind was chasing an above par score. Ind was 132/4, when Yuvi  (#6) and Kaif (#7) played those cool knocks. It was the number 7 that was the top scorer though. But it does not happen frequently. 

Edited by zen

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Injury to bowlers mid-match does not happens in every match. It is rare. When was the last such injury in ODI where our bowler did not take part any further in bowling innings. Perhaps one in 20 ODI matches or even more ? 5 proper bowlers are enough. If in rare match , bowler gets injured let someone like Iyer bowl the overs. Let Sharma bowl. The risk of wasting one spot is not worth by risking one in 20 or 30 matches. In one match even if 90 runs are scored from Iyers or Sharma's 10 overs, i would not mind as in other matches the proper batsman being played will be more beneficial.

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1 hour ago, zen said:

In ODIs, you will probably need an ATG national team level batsman to pull you out of 100/4 situation esp. if setting or chasing an above par score :lol: 

 

PS I recall the Natwest 2002 final where Ind was chasing an above par score. Ind was 132/4, when Yuvi  (#6) and Kaif (#7) played those cool knocks. It was the number 7 that was the top scorer though. But it does not happen frequently. 

I have seen guys like Butler,Morgan and Stokes do that plenty of times for england in fact without compromising on their natural flair.

 

I think India and Aus and to some extent SA have this top 3-4 problem 

 

Usually with weaker teams Like WI,Pak,SL,Bangladesh it always happens that their batsman from 3-4 down onwards get them to a respectable score 

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2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

I have seen guys like Butler,Morgan and Stokes do that plenty of times for england in fact without compromising on their natural flair.

Those are Eng ATG level players though 

Quote

 

I think India and Aus and to some extent SA have this top 3-4 problem 

 

Usually with weaker teams Like WI,Pak,SL,Bangladesh it always happens that their batsman from 3-4 down onwards get them to a respectable score 

 

Even AFG with likes of Nabi, Rashid, etc., who bat down the order .... BD has Sakib, Mammudullah, Nagin, etc .... Pak has had some hacks .... SL has Matthews .... it could be that in some of the teams, the top players prefer to bat lower :dontknow:

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No u shudnt but one some days they come through

jadhav has on days bowled better then many of our main bowlers

nyways 6th bowler job is for safety net not to run through sides

agreed but one of 2 batsman shud be able to give 10 overs or both shud be capable of giving 7 each 

Like aus cant go with just smith n labshune as options they ll need a stonis or marsh or agar who can give around 7-10 over consistently 

these days u have to specially with the pattern of injuries in last few years its foolish to ignore

  • pandya asia cup- jadhav was there
  • bhvi Wc pak game- shankar was there
  • pandya Wc semi game- no one was there so he had to bowl with hamstring
  • bumrah twisted his ankle today, saini got injured in 2nd game aussie
  • dhawan n rohit injured in field recently

 

look at the number of injuries on field, u cant ignore this ....no team does 

    Many times in football you have to play with 10 men . In important matches you should take the risk and play rather than covering for           

    something  whih may happen once a while  

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22 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

    Many times in football you have to play with 10 men . In important matches you should take the risk and play rather than covering for           

    something  whih may happen once a while  

easier said then done

Kohli already took the risk n just survived, pandya did get injured in WC semi and somehow completed his overs with hamstring . Now had something gone worse media n ppl wud have teared him. 

When same happened in game against Pak ...shankar presence let bhuvi go which helped in not making his injury worse

 

If we look for a bit of safety in tail why not in bowling as well. Also its just not about injury one of the bowler can really have an off day ....thats also a situation. Considering pandya is returning from long injury n the form of both spinner being dicey at this point its important to have that extra cushion.

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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34 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

 Also its just not about injury one of the bowler can really have an off day ....thats also a situation

 

Do not agree with this . If your 5 best bowlers cannot do , why expect your 6th bowler to come up trumps whenever  those 5 fail ? 

Cannot digest this.  

The selection depends upon the form of players and strength of a particular side. In bilaterals, a team is trying to win one more game than the opposition. So an offday by the players is ok as long as they remain consistent in the series. But then you are using these series to prepare for KOs too .... In a KO game, if a team loses, its over, so it is good to have options if available. Many times, those bowling or sharing 5th-6th bowling option provide key breakthroughs .... Therefore, it depends upon a variety of factors including availability of batsmen who can bowl a few overs like Richards (Teams like WI used 6 bowlers too many times). Aus used  Lehmann, Symonds and even Bevan iirc. Earlier, we were lucky to have Tendulkar, Sehwag, and Ganguly, who could bowl on regular basis if required .... Teams prefer to have options in the 11 esp. in the KOs 

Edited by zen

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36 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

 Also its just not about injury one of the bowler can really have an off day ....thats also a situation

 

Do not agree with this . If your 5 best bowlers cannot do , why expect your 6th bowler to come up trumps whenever  those 5 fail ? 

Cannot digest this.  

not trump but just to have some one with more control rather then to rely on guys who dont even bowl in nets . On days even khote sikke like jadhav, shankar, dube has come through with ball. Objective is to have cushion not that these guys will run through opposition. Neways in 20 over cricket how much batting does a 6 or 7 number gets so one can be a bowling all rounder and another can be batting all rounder. In ODI surely u can look at guys who can play longer but then we mostly have batsman for top order ..

 

if u look at the options for no.6 most of them bowl

 

Rana- bowls

Sky- can 1-2 overs

jadeja- he does

Axar- he does

Pant- he doesnt

Dube- he does

Sundar- he does

Abhishek sharma- he does

Krunal- he does

DK- he doesnt

jadhav- he does

Kishen- he doesnt

 

 

surely we cant be looking to make guys like shaw, samson, gill , mayank bat at 6 coz thats not their position. 

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12 minutes ago, zen said:

The selection depends upon the form of players and strength of a particular side. In bilaterals, a team is trying to win one more game than the opposition. So an offday by the players is ok as long as they remain consistent in the series. But then you are using these series to prepare for KOs too .... In a KO game, if a team loses, its overs, so it is good to have options if available. Many times, those bowling or sharing 5th-6th bowling option provide key breakthroughs .... Therefore, it depends upon a variety of factors including availability of batsmen who can bowl a few overs like Richards (Teams like WI used 6 bowlers too many times). Aus used  Lehmann, Symonds and even Bevan iirc. Earlier, we were lucky to have Tendulkar, Sehwag, and Ganguly, who could bowl on regular basis if required .... Teams prefer to have options in the 11 esp. in the KOs 

     If you  look past history , game has changed a lot after changes in rules of having 4 fielders during 11-40 overs and 2 new balls .

     No more your part timers , pie chuckers are effective in that period of play whereas earlier these part timers could get way with more cover  at the 

     boundary.  Its good if a top batsman can bowl some overs , and here India is in a bad spot as none bowl. 

     Better to go for pure bat who can bowl a  few overs if needed rather than dilute quality of batting /bowling  by going for 6th bowling option who is neither a top bat nor a top bowler like what they did today with Shardul . It should have been Saini  a pure bowler than a neither bat nor the best of 4  bowler available case like Shardul.  

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Coming back to the OP's questions on the importance of the 6th bowling option, Yes, it is important. Though there are various ways to have that option available .... For e.g. in the Natwest, Ind used 4 specialist bowlers as it had Ganguly, Sehwag, Yuvi, Mongia, and Tendulkar to bowl 10 or more overs as a group 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

     If you  look past history , game has changed a lot after changes in rules of having 4 fielders during 11-40 overs and 2 new balls .

     No more your part timers , pie chuckers are effective in that period of play whereas earlier these part timers could get way with more cover  at the 

     boundary.  Its good if a top batsman can bowl some overs , and here India is in a bad spot as none bowl. 

     Better to go for pure bat who can bowl a  few overs if needed rather than dilute quality of batting /bowling  by going for 6th bowling option who is neither a top bat nor a top bowler like what they did today with Shardul . It should have been Saini  a pure bowler than a neither bat nor the best of 4  bowler available case like Shardul.  

Shardul is not a great example. To me, he is more like a Bhajji, who can swing a few, and good for #8-11. Saini who bats in #8-11 should be in but I guess he was not played as he was suffering from jet leg .... The guys selected for their ability to bat and bowl should be good enough to bat at 6 and bowl 5 overs or so. And, ideally, also bring some unique strengths to the 11 

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4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

not trump but just to have some one with more control rather then to rely on guys who dont even bowl in nets . On days even khote sikke like jadhav, shankar, dube has come through with ball. Objective is to have cushion not that these guys will run through opposition. Neways in 20 over cricket how much batting does a 6 or 7 number gets so one can be a bowling all rounder and another can be batting all rounder. In ODI surely u can look at guys who can play longer but then we mostly have batsman for top order ..

 

if u look at the options for no.6 most of them bowl

 

Rana- bowls

Sky- can 1-2 overs

jadeja- he does

Axar- he does

Pant- he doesnt

Dube- he does

Sundar- he does

Abhishek sharma- he does

Krunal- he does

DK- he doesnt

jadhav- he does

Kishen- he doesnt

 

 

surely we cant be looking to make guys like shaw, samson, gill , mayank bat at 6 coz thats not their position. 

     I think present set who are waiting to come to playing X1 have missed the trick by neglecting bowling completely. There is still time , some of these can  gain skill to bowl 2-3 overs  players like Gill , Shaw -  if things go well , they may play for 8-10 years , if not ,their chances of being a permanent member may diminish.  

   The current U19 batch seem to have corrected this as most of the batsmen also bowl .    

  The best workaround  would be till you have pure bats who can bowl a bit , or a  real good new all rounder comes on the scene , go with 4 bowler s+ 1 all rounder most of the time . 

As & When you have a pure bat who also bowls a bit prefer such a bat in top 6 . 

Who knows we may see a very good all rounder coming up . Yuvi seem to working with Abhishek Sharma  in his development . 

Lets hope for the best.

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16 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

 

Who knows we may see a very good all rounder coming up . Yuvi seem to working with Abhishek Sharma  in his development . 

Lets hope for the best.

really ? some article on it

that kid has a gift of timing ....when he bats he looks to have so much time .

Im keenly looking at how abdul samad n abhishek sharma progress for this spot 

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Both Kohli and Rohit used to bowl in their initial years, what stopped them in maintaining  that skill? It's always handy to be able to bowl 2-3 overs. While Kohli expects KL to be a full time keeper to render balance to the side, I don't see him following his own preaching when it comes to him and other senior players.

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9 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

really ? some article on it

that kid has a gift of timing ....when he bats he looks to have so much time .

Im keenly looking at how abdul samad n abhishek sharma progress for this spot 

   I think it was a recent interview of Mandeep singh  where he was saying Yuvi often flies from Mumbai to Punjab matches  and  discusses with Punjab players and also spends time with Abhishek on his game  

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I think a batsman who can bowl an over or two works fine as 6th bowling option(t20s). 

 

Shoaib Malik does that type of thing well. 

 

I have never seen Kohli with the ball now btw, he can surely deliver few cutters etc. with his medium pace bowling. 

Edited by Autonomous

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9 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

BUMP! 
 

For the current scenario, instead of playing Shivam Dube, why not give Rishabh Pant a go instead? 
 

We don’t need 2 overs of Dube’s bowling. I’ll take Pant’s batting anyday! 
 

@Global.Baba

Dube may not be a great example of an AR .... but note that if Dube had not bowled, NZ could have won as he was filling in overs for Sundar, who was having a rough day 

 

After looking at the scorecard,  if you want to replace Sundar, who is a youngster being groomed in a dead rubber, with a specialist bowler, .... 

Edited by zen

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Pandya at 6

Jadeja at 7

And I can't believe I'm saying this....Thakur at 8 

 

Or

 

Can't believe I'm saying this as well...Shankar at 6

Pandya at 7

Jadeja at 8

 

5 specialist batsmen + 3 specialist bowlers + 3 ARs is the combo that the TM is trying at the moment in T20s

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5 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Pandya at 6

Jadeja at 7

And I can't believe I'm saying this....Thakur at 8 

 

Or

 

Can't believe I'm saying this as well...Shankar at 6

Pandya at 7

Jadeja at 8

 

5 specialist batsmen + 3 specialist bowlers + 3 ARs is the combo that the TM is trying at the moment in T20s

:hello: @jalebi_bhai I am global.baba (don’t forget the dot) long time no see.

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