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Fresh buying of Russian Jets.


raki05

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https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-to-acquire-33-new-fighter-jets-from-russia-as-defence-ministry-approves-project-worth-rs-18-148-cr/story-kqQeDYwVnBUSDHVA7JqFXK.html

 

Indian politicians are complete lodu. I mean why can't we buy more Rafael or European jets than Mig 29. Even if it has to russian only su-30 is good and S400 missile system but wy to buy mig29

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14 minutes ago, raki05 said:

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-to-acquire-33-new-fighter-jets-from-russia-as-defence-ministry-approves-project-worth-rs-18-148-cr/story-kqQeDYwVnBUSDHVA7JqFXK.html

 

Indian politicians are complete lodu. I mean why can't we buy more Rafael or European jets than Mig 29. Even if it has to russian only su-30 is good and S400 missile system but wy to buy mig29

Because on a short-term emergency basis, you can't magically start operating a different fighter -jet.  Its not like plugging in a new AC and flipping the switch. It takes months to train the ground staff, maintenance, pilots, getting used to flying the plane, practicing, drills, before you can actually start using them.  

 

The word you used to describe politicians? Oh they are, for sure.  But your opinion above in this thread? Its totally that, as well.

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Ok lets dispel some myths.

 

HAL Nashik factory produces the MKI, they are not buying from Russia. They are effectively signing an agreement for HAL to keep its Nashik factory open for another year. (12 a year produced). This means the factory and parts suppliers are open for a year extra. Which means IAF wants to simply supplement a its MKI lost to crashes etc and maintain the MKI strength at 272. It also means a factory remains open to churn out more MKI's quickly if there is indeed war with China and/or Pak with any money paid to Russia quickly. Its about retaining the inbuilt capacity.  I expect another 1 year extension apart from this.

 

Mig 29.These are already built in Russia in brand new condition. To them the IAF pimps them up by applying anti jammer radars (so reduce radar cross section or reduce being detected) alongside some latest technology to bring them to the 4th gen + standard. The cost of doing so and fully arming a Mig 29 is around $15 million-20 million.  In May and June the IAF carried out sorties and found the Mig29 does well in the thin air of Ladakh and Kashmir. India already has around 60 of these planes. So our pilots are already trained on them. Experienced Mig 21 pilots will also be easily be able to operate them. Thus the Mig 29 is an option which can be delivered and implemented quickly. Especially on the western front v Pakistan they offer good deterrence against the F16s and JK17s. They are limited jets but are good as interceptors used in a defensive manner. A big step up from the Mig21 we currently operate.

 

Rafales (a) Cost money (150 million per bird)  (b) Are not built in India which means there is a delivery date issue (c) Our pilots needs some extra time to train on them. Usually it takes around 2 years and many hours of flight time for pilots to be fully comfortable.

 

Hope this post clarifies things.

 

 

 

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Some time back I looked up the Feb 2019 Ind-Pak air battle. Turns out that the undisputed superstar of the IAF was & is the Mirage 2000, a western aircraft. 

 

When we were fighting off the "non-state actors" occupying the Kargil heights two decades back, the aircraft that wiped out the morale & heads of those padosis was the Mirage with its Israeli bombs & targeting pods. Fast forward to 2019, the same aircraft hammers terrorist buildings deep inside enemy territory without being detected. Now all that's just ground attacks. What is also mentioned is the next day when PAF came up with 24 different aircraft to attack Indian locations and draw IAF aircraft into a trap, it was the Mirage that could lock onto the farthest PAF planes inside Pakistani controlled airspace and made them turn around. This was again with the updated MICA missiles, western tech on western aircraft.

 

The Sukhoi, for all its stated prowess about air superiority, could not lock onto the F-16s which were firing AMRAAMs from quite a distance. Yes, it was able to defend itself via jammers or move away from the incoming missile with its powerful engines, but that's not what we thought was its primarily skill. The Russian R-77 missile was found lacking against the AMRAAM & the IAF is looking for alternatives including Israeli ones. 

 

Often, there's nothing better than battle proven western tech if you desire asymmetry in military tech and want to inflict damage to your opponent in battles and skirmishes. The IAF was so impressed with the Mirage 2K's capabilities post Kargil that it just wanted a lot of them, a terrific swiss army knife that does the job. The french offered the Rafale as a modern alternative and then MMRCA & good old bureaucracy struck us hard.  

 

 

Edited by Clarke
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14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Because on a short-term emergency basis, you can't magically start operating a different fighter -jet.  Its not like plugging in a new AC and flipping the switch. It takes months to train the ground staff, maintenance, pilots, getting used to flying the plane, practicing, drills, before you can actually start using them.  

 

The word you used to describe politicians? Oh they are, for sure.  But your opinion above in this thread? Its totally that, as well.

I think first rafel.order were placed 7 years back and when we were already trying to modernaize our airforce since then it doesn't make sense to have mig 29 looks like you dint read complete sentence. I said even if it has to be russian only su-30 is good which our pilots are already trained on. MiG-29 is so much of disaster that many pilots have dioed during training excercise that's the fighter plane of 65 era and not for modern warfare.

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7 minutes ago, raki05 said:

I think first rafel.order were placed 7 years back and when we were already trying to modernaize our airforce since then it doesn't make sense to have mig 29 looks like you dint read complete sentence. I said even if it has to be russian only su-30 is good which our pilots are already trained on. MiG-29 is so much of disaster that many pilots have dioed during training excercise that's the fighter plane of 65 era and not for modern warfare.

29 != 21

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17 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Ok lets dispel some myths.

 

HAL Nashik factory produces the MKI, they are not buying from Russia. They are effectively signing an agreement for HAL to keep its Nashik factory open for another year. (12 a year produced). This means the factory and parts suppliers are open for a year extra. Which means IAF wants to simply supplement a its MKI lost to crashes etc and maintain the MKI strength at 272. It also means a factory remains open to churn out more MKI's quickly if there is indeed war with China and/or Pak with any money paid to Russia quickly. Its about retaining the inbuilt capacity.  I expect another 1 year extension apart from this.

 

Mig 29.These are already built in Russia in brand new condition. To them the IAF pimps them up by applying anti jammer radars (so reduce radar cross section or reduce being detected) alongside some latest technology to bring them to the 4th gen + standard. The cost of doing so and fully arming a Mig 29 is around $15 million-20 million.  In May and June the IAF carried out sorties and found the Mig29 does well in the thin air of Ladakh and Kashmir. India already has around 60 of these planes. So our pilots are already trained on them. Experienced Mig 21 pilots will also be easily be able to operate them. Thus the Mig 29 is an option which can be delivered and implemented quickly. Especially on the western front v Pakistan they offer good deterrence against the F16s and JK17s. They are limited jets but are good as interceptors used in a defensive manner. A big step up from the Mig21 we currently operate.

 

Rafales (a) Cost money (150 million per bird)  (b) Are not built in India which means there is a delivery date issue (c) Our pilots needs some extra time to train on them. Usually it takes around 2 years and many hours of flight time for pilots to be fully comfortable.

 

Hope this post clarifies things.

 

 

 

Ya very  well put, but that still shows our lackluster attitude towards security and red Taoism in procurement process. I think Rafael order were first placed for 135 jet  some 5-6 years back and then reduced to 34. Hail we got first one of them last yaer and as we already have 2 big enemy I am not sure how could we defend in 2 front war with this lackluster attitude. Now they are spending money in a hurry on old technology just to fulfill current demand which is need of the hour but had they been visionary they would have adapted to 5th generation fighter planes by now. Bloddy s400 was first offered to us but due to red Taoism we denied and then Chinese have finalized deals and got it within an year in their defence system and now planted it on border whereas we are still happy with single Rafael and perennial sluggish jets like mig.

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1 minute ago, Clarke said:

Some time back I looked up the Feb 2019 Ind-Pak air battle. Turns out that the undisputed superstar of the IAF was & is the Mirage 2000, a western aircraft. 

 

When we were fighting off the "non-state actors" occupying the Kargil heights two decades back, the aircraft that wiped out the morale & heads of those padosis was the Mirage with its Israeli bombs & targeting pods. Fast forward to 2019, the same aircraft hammers terrorist buildings deep inside enemy territory without being detected. Now all that's just ground attacks. What is also mentioned is the next day when PAF came up with 24 different aircraft to attack Indian locations and draw IAF aircraft into a trap, it was the Mirage that could lock onto the farthest PAF planes inside Pakistani controlled airspace and made them turn around. This was again with the updated MICA missiles, western tech on western aircraft.

 

The Sukhoi, for all its stated prowess about air superiority, could not lock onto the F-16s which were firing AMRAAMs from quite a distance. Yes, it was able to defend itself via jammers or move away from the incoming missile with its powerful engines, but that's not what we thought was its primarily skill. The Russian R-77 missile was found lacking against the AMRAAM & the IAF is looking for alternatives including Israeli ones. 

 

Often, there's nothing better than battle proven western tech if you desire asymmetry in military tech and want to inflict damage to your opponent in battles and skirmishes. 

 

 

 

 

The primary advantage of the MKI is its carrying capacity at speed. This becomes very important for an air launched Brahmos. an air to air missile weights 150 to 200km. Brahmos weighs 2500kg. Secondly. Usually an MKI will lead a pack of MIg21 and use its big ass radar to provide better information to the interceptors (Mig21s).  So its not meant to "fight". The role of defending is with the Mig 21. Which is did. Pak had plans to attack out air bases but failed to pick up the Mig21 due to its low radar cross section which was further dipped due to coming out of the mountains. It thwarted an F16 attack on our bases. We lost a Mig 21 which probably cost $5-10 million USD. You dont expect Messi to play as centre back right?

 

We also need to keep in mind that the skirmish v Pak was primarily a failure of Advanced air warning systems. There was a 1 hour gap in our coverage in which Pak caught us offguard. Unfair to blame the jets in this situation. they actually recovered it well.

 

Thirdly, its also a question of doctrine. Soviet branch of fighter jets believe that the air command on the ground controls the jet. American thought process is that the pilot has a higher degree of autonomy. Abhinandan chased a retreating F16. The closer he got to the border Pakistanis jammed his communication link with air command. This resulted in him now receiving the orders to retreat himself.

 

Post this India have fixed the gaps in the radars. If anything a loss of Mig 21 was crucial in exposing any flaws which we had in strategy. It also means that Pak knows that our Mig21 are very hard to detect by their radars and can creep on them and engage in a dogfight.

 

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23 minutes ago, raki05 said:

I think first rafel.order were placed 7 years back and when we were already trying to modernaize our airforce since then it doesn't make sense to have mig 29 looks like you dint read complete sentence. I said even if it has to be russian only su-30 is good which our pilots are already trained on. MiG-29 is so much of disaster that many pilots have dioed during training excercise that's the fighter plane of 65 era and not for modern warfare.

Doesn't matter when it was "ordered".  ZERO are currently deployed.  Which means we are at least 8 to 10 months away from being able to use Rafale jets, even if we get them delivered TODAY.  Do you understand this?  If you do not, then I cannot help you.

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26 minutes ago, Clarke said:

The french offered the Rafale as a modern alternative and then MMRCA & good old bureaucracy struck us hard.  

Mirage would have been a very solid 'allrounder' workhorse for the IAF.  The fact that Indian establishment failed to follow through on acquiring these post-kargil, is a massive strategic blunder.  

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2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Doesn't matter when it was "ordered".  ZERO are currently deployed.  Which means we are at least 8 to 10 months away from being able to use Rafale jets, even if we get them delivered TODAY.  Do you understand this?  If you do not, then I cannot help you.

Why you are getting angry....my question was more towards beforehand  preparedness than regency buying.  And again you missed the point where I referred we alraedy have European mirage and russian su trained pilot so why can't we increase those number.

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Mirage would have been a very solid 'allrounder' workhorse for the IAF.  The fact that Indian establishment failed to follow through on acquiring these post-kargil, is a massive strategic blunder.  

you can thank IAF high ranking officers for that. By the time they made their minds up France have shuttered the mirage production line. 

 

Should also be noted France is also playing a game. We ordered Meteor missiles from them for the Mirage in 2019 and they are dragging their feet. So I doubt even if we would have placed orders they would have come through. Their aim was always to sell the Rafale to us. 

 

Su30MKI and Mig cannot be given Meteor as they are not classified as NATO jets. Tejas can but the Franch are going to give an excuse.

 

I think its becoming clear that France will give us Meteor for the Mirages if we order another batch of Rafale. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Why you are getting angry....my question was more towards beforehand  preparedness than regency buying.  And again you missed the point where I referred we alraedy have European mirage and russian su trained pilot so why can't we increase those number.

Sorry bhai, I guess I was a bit snippy there.  Your initial post was a bit naive though, asking for more Rafales instead of jets that are already inducted.  But yes, I was rude, no excuses. I own up to it.

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2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Doesn't matter when it was "ordered".  ZERO are currently deployed.  Which means we are at least 8 to 10 months away from being able to use Rafale jets, even if we get them delivered TODAY.  Do you understand this?  If you do not, then I cannot help you.

 

We will be able to operate the Rafale. Just in a limited manner immediately . For eg the Rafale can be used in a defensive manner within our borders and use its air to air meteor missile to take out incoming enemy jets. But its offensive capabilities will need 8 to 10 months as you said. I.e striking beyond enemy lines. Much easier to fly within your borders with on ground support. What the IAF realistically will do is arm the Rafales to the teeth with air to air missiles (MICA and Meteor). We should get around 10 by the end of July (total in possession). So you have around 60-80 BVR missiles. Had we the entire 36 (34 with 2 trainers) its safe to say thats around 220-240 BVR missiles.

 

As things stand primarily used for;

 

Defence Mig29, Mig 21,  Rafale.

 

Attack Mirage and MKI , Jaguar 

 

You can see our attack options are a bit thin....

 

Most Pakistani air bases and Chinese air bases are located 300km from the border....

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, G_B_ said:

 

 

The primary advantage of the MKI is its carrying capacity at speed. This becomes very important for an air launched Brahmos. an air to air missile weights 150 to 200km. Brahmos weighs 2500kg. Secondly. Usually an MKI will lead a pack of MIg21 and use its big ass radar to provide better information to the interceptors (Mig21s).  So its not meant to "fight". The role of defending is with the Mig 21. Which is did. Pak had plans to attack out air bases but failed to pick up the Mig21 due to its low radar cross section which was further dipped due to coming out of the mountains. It thwarted an F16 attack on our bases. We lost a Mig 21 which probably cost $5-10 million USD. You dont expect Messi to play as centre back right?

 

We also need to keep in mind that the skirmish v Pak was primarily a failure of Advanced air warning systems. There was a 1 hour gap in our coverage in which Pak caught us offguard. Unfair to blame the jets in this situation. they actually recovered it well.

 

Thirdly, its also a question of doctrine. Soviet branch of fighter jets believe that the air command on the ground controls the jet. American thought process is that the pilot has a higher degree of autonomy. Abhinandan chased a retreating F16. The closer he got to the border Pakistanis jammed his communication link with air command. This resulted in him now receiving the orders to retreat himself.

 

Post this India have fixed the gaps in the radars. If anything a loss of Mig 21 was crucial in exposing any flaws which we had in strategy. It also means that Pak knows that our Mig21 are very hard to detect by their radars and can creep on them and engage in a dogfight.

 

 

Agree on the role of AWACS, they timed it perfectly. Didn't mention it since the thread was about fighters. 

 

Having said that, I would not sing praises for the Fishbed in 21st century warfare. It may have an advantage or two but its an indicator of our systemic failures, not some top notch timeless technological masterpiece. Nor do i care about how much value for money it may seem, its airframe, engines, avionics and missiles can only achieve so much. The Sukhoi is a capable platform but was let down by its missile, the tip of the spear for an air superiority fighter. If it wasn't meant to fight, why was the IAF looking for longer range missiles post the battle ?

 

For an airforce having a substantially bigger budget than its adversary, we should have been able to inflict some painful blows on that morning. Fighters were part of the problem that we couldn't do so. 

Edited by Clarke
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5 hours ago, raki05 said:

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-to-acquire-33-new-fighter-jets-from-russia-as-defence-ministry-approves-project-worth-rs-18-148-cr/story-kqQeDYwVnBUSDHVA7JqFXK.html

 

Indian politicians are complete lodu. I mean why can't we buy more Rafael or European jets than Mig 29. Even if it has to russian only su-30 is good and S400 missile system but wy to buy mig29

21 mothballed mig29 and 12 su30 attrition replacements. These have been in discussion for over 1- 2 years.  These are neither fresh nor are they in any way threatening the non existent rafale budget.

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