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Just now, zen said:

I compared the "attitude" not necessarily skills. Among batsmen of his calibre of his generation, Tendulkar has played the most # of series but as only a handful of MoS awards or even a big series, translating into a "relatively" low ratio. 

 

Excluding BD and Zim, 

 

Away

  • Tendulkar has played 24 series overseas involving 3 tests or more, but only on 4 occasions he has been able to hit 2 or more 100s (has never hit 3 100s) 
  • Lara has played 14 series overseas, but on 4 occasions has hit 2 or more 100s (on 2 occasions, he hit 3 100s in a series) 

 

Home

  • Tendulkar in 20 series with 3 or more tests at home as only on 2 occasions scored more than 2 or more 100s in a series 
  • Lara in 12 series with 3 or more tests at home as on on 4 occasions scored more than 2 or more 100s in a series 

Ironically Lara has 0 MOTS awards in a winning cause against Test standard sides. Unlike Chanderpaul, Adams, Sarwan, Wavell Hinds who have all have won MOTS awards in a winning cause while playing for the same side. 

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While Rahane has no doubt majorly underwhelmed post-2014. he has still been a consistent contributor to our wins with 17 50+ scores in wins in the last six years. Kohli for instance has just 1 more with Pujara being the highest at 21. In the past, we had folks like Gavaskar play on from 1982-87 with just 1 50+ score in a winning cause (that too came against minnows of that time at home) and yet he supposedly retired on a high because of a 90+ in a losing cause in his last Test :facepalm:. At least Rahane hasn't been that useless for us from 2015-2020 :winky:.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Ironically Lara has 0 MOTS awards in a winning cause against Test standard sides. Unlike Chanderpaul, Adams, Sarwan, Wavell Hinds who have all have won MOTS awards in a winning cause while playing for the same side. 

That is fine as by and large, wins in tests is a team effort. If you have a strong team even a random 50 will be for a winning cause. If I have to consider individual batting performance that drove wins, it would be  Laxman's 281, Lara's 153, Sehwag's 300, Pujara's performance in Aus, etc. .... Here, I am focused on how the individual is able to rack up a big series for his team and not be satisfied with for e.g. 1 100 = job done type of attitude.  

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8 hours ago, zen said:

I compared the "attitude" not necessarily skills. Among batsmen of his calibre of his generation, Tendulkar has played the most # of series but has only a handful of MoS awards or even a big series, translating into a "relatively" low ratio. 

 

Excluding BD and Zim, 

 

Away

  • Tendulkar has played 24 series overseas involving 3 tests or more, but only on 4 occasions he has been able to hit 2 or more 100s (has never hit 3 100s in a series) 
  • Lara has played 14 series overseas, but on 4 occasions has hit 2 or more 100s (on 2 occasions, he hit 3 100s in a series) 

 

Home

  • Tendulkar in 20 series with 3 or more tests at home as only on 2 occasions scored more than 2 or more 100s in a series (has never hit 3 100s in a series)
  • Lara in 12 series with 3 or more tests at home has on on 4 occasions scored more than 2 or more 100s in a series (on 1 occasion, he hit 3 100s in a series)

Lara played 11 test series with 5 or more matches and scored 2 or more 100s 9 times overall (not in same series) in career.

Tendulkar played 3 test series with 5 matches and scored 2 or more 100s 11 times (not in same series) in career.

 

Anyway with filter of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh...

Lara's performance in Sri Lanka was indeed one of the best. But you count his performance in England (3 centuries) as something which SRT couldn't do.

 

Well WI played 6 tests in that series in 1995 and guess how many centuries he scored in first 4 matches? 

 

Answer is 1

 

Lara played 6 test series of 5 or more tests - and scored more than 1 100s in only 1 of those - that too after in 5th and 6th test.

Tendulkar played 5 or more tests 3 times and scored 2 100s once.

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Anyway with filter of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh...

Lara's performance in Sri Lanka was indeed one of the best. But you count his performance in England (3 centuries) as something which SRT couldn't do.

The point is on attitude where hitting 1 100 in a series = job done so the rest do not matter .... A player considered of extremely high caliber with 44 series with 3 or more tests has plenty of opportunities to make it "count" 

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16 minutes ago, zen said:

The point is on attitude where hitting 1 100 in a series = job done so the rest do not matter .... A player considered of extremely high caliber with 44 series with 3 or more tests has plenty of opportunities to make it "count" 

And whatever is done is not plenty is arbitrary criteria. 

 

I can set an arbitrary criteria of scoring 1 100s every 2 tests is what matter and declare each and every batsman except Bradman lacked attitude. 

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18 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

And whatever is done is not plenty is arbitrary criteria. 

 

I can set an arbitrary criteria of scoring 1 100s every 2 tests is what matter and declare each and every batsman of international cricket lacked attitude. 

FYI, Bradman has 29 100s in 52 tests so that is more than 1 100 every 2 tests 

 

Coming back to the point - If we want teams like India to be competitive in tests (at least not lose as much as it has), top batsmen need to put their hand up a lot more. Someone like Dravid has scored 2 or more 100s 6 times in 36 series of 3 or more tests. While Sehwag has done it on 3 occasions in 21 series. I guess, likes of Kallis and Waugh would have a better ratio too. 

Edited by zen
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7 hours ago, zen said:

FYI, Bradman has 29 100s in 52 tests so that is more than 1 100 every 2 tests 

 

Coming back to the point - If we want teams like India to be competitive in tests (at least not lose as much as it has), top batsmen need to put their hand up a lot more. Someone like Dravid has scored 2 or more 100s 6 times in 36 series of 3 or more tests. While Sehwag has done it on 3 occasions in 21 series. I guess, likes of Kallis and Waugh would have a better ratio too. 

you should also consider bowling which Dravid faced on those series. I found Dravid a bit overrated in test. If you see 2 best bowling side during his time Aus and SA. look at his batting performance till the time these team have great bowler. Most of his overseas performance were against mediocre eng/nz bowlers. Only 2011 series was his best performance against eng also agains pakistan till the time 2ws and akhtar were in full charge look at his mediocre 24-26 avg against pak, here come sami and gul type bowlers and lacklusture akhtar and saqulain and his avg sore up. Heck even against murali and mendis he was walking wkts . BTW based on your criteria how many players are there in hisotry who hit one century per series out of total series which they have played in their entire career, you think hitting one hundred every series is easy . Hitting one 100 and 2 70s and 80s  in 3 test series are much better than hitting a 100 in 5/4 match series and batting like Chris Martin in remaining matches which is the case with Rahane.

Edited by raki05
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11 hours ago, zen said:

The point is on attitude where hitting 1 100 in a series = job done so the rest do not matter .... A player considered of extremely high caliber with 44 series with 3 or more tests has plenty of opportunities to make it "count" 

Tendu's peak rating substantiates that, he couldn't dominate series after series like other ATGs. 898 is still good but a big factor against his GOAThood. Not just cricket, to be a GOAT in any sport your peak rating must be among the top.

 

ID Rat. Name Nat. Career Best Rating
1 961 D.G. Bradman AUS 961 v India, 10/02/1948
2 947 S.P.D. Smith AUS 947 v England, 30/12/2017
3 945 L. Hutton ENG 945 v West Indies, 03/04/1954
4 942 J.B. Hobbs ENG 942 v Australia, 23/08/1912
4 942 R.T. Ponting AUS 942 v England, 05/12/2006
6 941 P.B.H. May ENG 941 v Australia, 27/08/1956
7 938 G.S. Sobers WI 938 v India, 17/01/1967
7 938 K.C. Sangakkara SL 938 v England, 05/12/2007
7 938 C.L. Walcott WI 938 v Australia, 15/06/1955
7 938 I.V.A. Richards WI 938 v England, 31/03/1981
11 937 V. Kohli IND 937 v England, 22/08/2018
12 935 M.L. Hayden AUS 935 v England, 11/11/2002
12 935 J.H. Kallis SA 935 v New Zealand, 22/11/2007
12 935 A.B. de Villiers SA 935 v Australia, 24/02/2014
15 933 Mohammad Yousuf PAK 933 v West Indies, 01/12/2006
16 927 R.G. Pollock SA 927 v Australia, 23/02/1970
16 927 E.D. Weekes WI 927 v New Zealand, 07/03/1956
18 922 K.D. Walters AUS 922 v South Africa, 23/02/1970
18 922 A.D. Nourse SA 922 v England, 11/06/1951
20 921 M.E.K. Hussey AUS 921 v West Indies, 27/05/2008
20 921 R.N. Harvey AUS 921 v South Africa, 10/02/1953
22 917 J.E. Root ENG 917 v Australia, 10/08/2015
22 917 D.C.S. Compton ENG 917 v Australia, 12/07/1948
24 916 S.M. Gavaskar IND 916 v England, 03/09/1979
25 915 G.A. Headley WI 915 v England, 25/01/1948
25 915 K.S. Williamson NZ 915 v Sri Lanka, 19/12/2018
27 914 K.F. Barrington ENG 914 v New Zealand, 12/07/1965
28 911 B.C. Lara WI 911 v South Africa, 06/01/2004
29 909 K.P. Pietersen ENG 909 v West Indies, 01/06/2007
30 907 H.M. Amla SA 907 v Pakistan, 17/10/2013
31 901 S. Chanderpaul WI 901 v New Zealand, 23/12/2008
32 900 M.J. Clarke AUS 900 v Sri Lanka, 30/12/2012
33 898 S.R. Tendulkar IND 898 v Zimbabwe, 25/02/2002
34 897 W.R. Hammond ENG 897 v New Zealand, 04/04/1933
35 895 A. Flower ZIM 895 v South Africa, 18/09/2001
35 895 S.R. Waugh AUS 895 v England, 07/07/1997

 

No shame in that....there is a reason Karpov and Anand despite their longevity (>3 decades) and 5 official world titles each don't make the GOAT discussion and those two are much closer to the (inflation adjusted) peak ratings of Kasparov (5 times world champ)/Carlsen (x4) than Sachin is to the Don. Despite being at the top for longer period Karpov/Anand will be top 5 but ALWAYS below the two 2850+ guys. Beyond a point longevity loses its relevance, it can push you to close to the peak but not at numero uno. 

 

Also why I rate Nole>Fed>Nadal....all will have more or less similar GS titles+other trophies but peak ELO of Nole is 100 pts more than that of his 2 great rivals. Peak Nole had that amazing 2011 season and a non-calendar year GS in 2015-16. Beat that. 

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3 hours ago, raki05 said:

you should also consider bowling which Dravid faced on those series. I found Dravid a bit overrated in test. If you see 2 best bowling side during his time Aus and SA. look at his batting performance till the time these team have great bowler. Most of his overseas performance were against mediocre eng/nz bowlers. Only 2011 series was his best performance against eng also agains pakistan till the time 2ws and akhtar were in full charge look at his mediocre 24-26 avg against pak, here come sami and gul type bowlers and lacklusture akhtar and saqulain and his avg sore up. Heck even against murali and mendis he was walking wkts . BTW based on your criteria how many players are there in hisotry who hit one century per series out of total series which they have played in their entire career, you think hitting one hundred every series is easy . Hitting one 100 and 2 70s and 80s  in 3 test series are much better than hitting a 100 in 5/4 match series and batting like Chris Martin in remaining matches which is the case with Rahane.

Both Dravid and Sachin faced similar attacks so ....

 

Now Dravid can be overrated but let's us stop scamming ourselves by overrating Sachin :no:

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20 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Tendu's peak rating substantiates that, he couldn't dominate series after series like other ATGs. 898 is still good but a big factor against his GOAThood. Not just cricket, to be a GOAT in any sport your peak rating must be among the top.

 

ID Rat. Name Nat. Career Best Rating
1 961 D.G. Bradman AUS 961 v India, 10/02/1948
2 947 S.P.D. Smith AUS 947 v England, 30/12/2017
3 945 L. Hutton ENG 945 v West Indies, 03/04/1954
4 942 J.B. Hobbs ENG 942 v Australia, 23/08/1912
4 942 R.T. Ponting AUS 942 v England, 05/12/2006
6 941 P.B.H. May ENG 941 v Australia, 27/08/1956
7 938 G.S. Sobers WI 938 v India, 17/01/1967
7 938 K.C. Sangakkara SL 938 v England, 05/12/2007
7 938 C.L. Walcott WI 938 v Australia, 15/06/1955
7 938 I.V.A. Richards WI 938 v England, 31/03/1981
11 937 V. Kohli IND 937 v England, 22/08/2018
12 935 M.L. Hayden AUS 935 v England, 11/11/2002
12 935 J.H. Kallis SA 935 v New Zealand, 22/11/2007
12 935 A.B. de Villiers SA 935 v Australia, 24/02/2014
15 933 Mohammad Yousuf PAK 933 v West Indies, 01/12/2006
16 927 R.G. Pollock SA 927 v Australia, 23/02/1970
16 927 E.D. Weekes WI 927 v New Zealand, 07/03/1956
18 922 K.D. Walters AUS 922 v South Africa, 23/02/1970
18 922 A.D. Nourse SA 922 v England, 11/06/1951
20 921 M.E.K. Hussey AUS 921 v West Indies, 27/05/2008
20 921 R.N. Harvey AUS 921 v South Africa, 10/02/1953
22 917 J.E. Root ENG 917 v Australia, 10/08/2015
22 917 D.C.S. Compton ENG 917 v Australia, 12/07/1948
24 916 S.M. Gavaskar IND 916 v England, 03/09/1979
25 915 G.A. Headley WI 915 v England, 25/01/1948
25 915 K.S. Williamson NZ 915 v Sri Lanka, 19/12/2018
27 914 K.F. Barrington ENG 914 v New Zealand, 12/07/1965
28 911 B.C. Lara WI 911 v South Africa, 06/01/2004
29 909 K.P. Pietersen ENG 909 v West Indies, 01/06/2007
30 907 H.M. Amla SA 907 v Pakistan, 17/10/2013
31 901 S. Chanderpaul WI 901 v New Zealand, 23/12/2008
32 900 M.J. Clarke AUS 900 v Sri Lanka, 30/12/2012
33 898 S.R. Tendulkar IND 898 v Zimbabwe, 25/02/2002
34 897 W.R. Hammond ENG 897 v New Zealand, 04/04/1933
35 895 A. Flower ZIM 895 v South Africa, 18/09/2001
35 895 S.R. Waugh AUS 895 v England, 07/07/1997

 

No shame in that....there is a reason Karpov and Anand despite their longevity (>3 decades) and 5 official world titles each don't make the GOAT discussion and those two are much closer to the (inflation adjusted) peak ratings of Kasparov (5 times world champ)/Carlsen (x4) than Sachin is to the Don. Despite being at the top for longer period Karpov/Anand will be top 5 but ALWAYS below the two 2850+ guys. Beyond a point longevity loses its relevance, it can push you to close to the peak but not at numero uno. 

 

Also why I rate Nole>Fed>Nadal....all will have more or less similar GS titles+other trophies but peak ELO of Nole is 100 pts more than that of his 2 great rivals. Peak Nole had that amazing 2011 season and a non-calendar year GS in 2015-16. Beat that. 

 

That "longevity" is questionable too in the sense that was it purely based on merit or attributed to playing for a team like India  .... Having followed his career and therefore having a sense of how Sachin thinks, I had said when many were speculating on his retirement that he is not going to retire before playing his 200th test 

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1 hour ago, zen said:

Both Dravid and Sachin faced similar attacks so ....

 

Now Dravid can be overrated but let's us stop scamming ourselves by overrating Sachin :no:

Yet look at his record in sa and aus. Sachin in 99 series was lone warrior. Even the Asia test championship and test those days against pak have you seen Dravid's performance check out . BTW You don't answer my question how come scoring a century  and bunch of 70-80s score in 3 match series is same as playing pathetic like tail unders in entire 4-5 match series and than scoring painstaking one 80-90 /100 to keep the career alive.

Edited by raki05
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1 hour ago, raki05 said:

BTW You don't answer my question how come scoring a century  and bunch of 70-80s score in 3 match series is same as playing pathetic like tail unders in entire 4-5 match series and than scoring painstaking one 80-90 /100 to keep the career alive.

You are asking questions on an unrelated scenario. I am comparing the "attitude" in which Sachin among ATG batsmen is a Rahane, or Rahane among regular batsmen is like the Sachin among ATG batsmen - not making the good form count to rake up a huge series for the team. The Dravid, Sehwag, Kallis, ...., example shows that Sachin's peers have done relatively better in terms of making the form "count". 

 

Edited by zen
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3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Tendu's peak rating substantiates that, he couldn't dominate series after series like other ATGs. 898 is still good but a big factor against his GOAThood. Not just cricket, to be a GOAT in any sport your peak rating must be among the top.

 

ID Rat. Name Nat. Career Best Rating
1 961 D.G. Bradman AUS 961 v India, 10/02/1948
2 947 S.P.D. Smith AUS 947 v England, 30/12/2017
3 945 L. Hutton ENG 945 v West Indies, 03/04/1954
4 942 J.B. Hobbs ENG 942 v Australia, 23/08/1912
4 942 R.T. Ponting AUS 942 v England, 05/12/2006
6 941 P.B.H. May ENG 941 v Australia, 27/08/1956
7 938 G.S. Sobers WI 938 v India, 17/01/1967
7 938 K.C. Sangakkara SL 938 v England, 05/12/2007
7 938 C.L. Walcott WI 938 v Australia, 15/06/1955
7 938 I.V.A. Richards WI 938 v England, 31/03/1981
11 937 V. Kohli IND 937 v England, 22/08/2018
12 935 M.L. Hayden AUS 935 v England, 11/11/2002
12 935 J.H. Kallis SA 935 v New Zealand, 22/11/2007
12 935 A.B. de Villiers SA 935 v Australia, 24/02/2014
15 933 Mohammad Yousuf PAK 933 v West Indies, 01/12/2006
16 927 R.G. Pollock SA 927 v Australia, 23/02/1970
16 927 E.D. Weekes WI 927 v New Zealand, 07/03/1956
18 922 K.D. Walters AUS 922 v South Africa, 23/02/1970
18 922 A.D. Nourse SA 922 v England, 11/06/1951
20 921 M.E.K. Hussey AUS 921 v West Indies, 27/05/2008
20 921 R.N. Harvey AUS 921 v South Africa, 10/02/1953
22 917 J.E. Root ENG 917 v Australia, 10/08/2015
22 917 D.C.S. Compton ENG 917 v Australia, 12/07/1948
24 916 S.M. Gavaskar IND 916 v England, 03/09/1979
25 915 G.A. Headley WI 915 v England, 25/01/1948
25 915 K.S. Williamson NZ 915 v Sri Lanka, 19/12/2018
27 914 K.F. Barrington ENG 914 v New Zealand, 12/07/1965
28 911 B.C. Lara WI 911 v South Africa, 06/01/2004
29 909 K.P. Pietersen ENG 909 v West Indies, 01/06/2007
30 907 H.M. Amla SA 907 v Pakistan, 17/10/2013
31 901 S. Chanderpaul WI 901 v New Zealand, 23/12/2008
32 900 M.J. Clarke AUS 900 v Sri Lanka, 30/12/2012
33 898 S.R. Tendulkar IND 898 v Zimbabwe, 25/02/2002
34 897 W.R. Hammond ENG 897 v New Zealand, 04/04/1933
35 895 A. Flower ZIM 895 v South Africa, 18/09/2001
35 895 S.R. Waugh AUS 895 v England, 07/07/1997

 

No shame in that....there is a reason Karpov and Anand despite their longevity (>3 decades) and 5 official world titles each don't make the GOAT discussion and those two are much closer to the (inflation adjusted) peak ratings of Kasparov (5 times world champ)/Carlsen (x4) than Sachin is to the Don. Despite being at the top for longer period Karpov/Anand will be top 5 but ALWAYS below the two 2850+ guys. Beyond a point longevity loses its relevance, it can push you to close to the peak but not at numero uno. 

 

Also why I rate Nole>Fed>Nadal....all will have more or less similar GS titles+other trophies but peak ELO of Nole is 100 pts more than that of his 2 great rivals. Peak Nole had that amazing 2011 season and a non-calendar year GS in 2015-16. Beat that. 

So called "God" couldn't even get past 900 :phehe: says everything about him. Always a phoney

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8 hours ago, zen said:

You are asking questions on an unrelated scenario

Irony. How come a 100 and bunch of 50s is not considered great performance. Till 99 he was the main run scorer overseas even till 2000. Ya dravid , Kallis has knack of performing like beast against not so great attack, that's what I pointed out. Look at Dravid performance against ATG team with great bowlers overseas and when they were not around.

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22 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Irony. How come a 100 and bunch of 50s is not considered great performance. Till 99 he was the main run scorer overseas even till 2000. Ya dravid , Kallis has knack of performing like beast against not so great attack, that's what I pointed out. Look at Dravid performance against ATG team with great bowlers overseas and when they were not around.

You are pointing out things that do not matter to the discussion. For e.g. you want to say that Dravid performance against ATG team with great bowlers overseas is not good, but you are ignoring that batting in top 3 particularly overseas is a challenge, and Sachin, who lines up to open in ODIs, conveniently bats at #4 in tests (probably not good enough to bat in the top order in tests). 

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