People who have seen Ian Botham, How does Stokes stand in comparison to him ?

[Ankit_sharma03]

I havent seen Botham so this is a geniune question to people who have seen botham- is stokes better ?

When i see botham numbers....they dont look extra ordinary . 

The other all rounder england had Flintoff was good enough to play as bowler Acc to me such was his quality. 

So who among Botham n stokes is better if you have to choose one ?

Edited July 20, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[Nikola]

Ben stokes at the moment is better batsman but Botham had huge workload as bowler. 27 fifers vs 4 fifers isn't even comparison considering with ben stokes has played 64 and botham played 102 matches. It's bit easy when you know that you don't have alot workload as bowler so you can give your best every time you come to bowl and that's why as bowler ben stokes looks like can make things happen.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Nikola

[Gollum]

Doubt many ICFers would have seen Botham. I was born after he retired. 

 

But the general understanding is that for the first half of his career Botham was a tremendous all rounder (probably best ever), carried on for too long, should have given up bowling in the second half of 80s. His feats in India are legendary but numbers against ATG WI take a huge hit, a blot on his career.

[maniac]

Stokes ahead of Bottom.

 

Won a Wc, got Ashes 100, SC 100s, WT20 finalist, top 1-3 side, no.1 allrounder.

 

I only saw Botham towards the end of his career where he looked mediocre but then again so did Marshall,Kapil,Haynes and Imran at that point of their careers.

 

I know Botham did well in Ashes which is a benchmark for English folk and bashed Indian Trundlers that’s about it.

 

Stokes any day

[zen]

Botham at his peak was known to be a match winner with both bat and ball. Has amazing stats in the 70s - early 80s. As an AR, a peak Botham is ahead of not only Stokes but also the other 3 ARs of his time. As a batsman and a player who can perform under pressure, a peak Stokes is probably better. Since they have different USP, both of them can be accommodated in an Eng 11.

Edited July 20, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

as an all rounder? No..... Stokes just does not fall as a complete all rounder in my book.He averages almost 42 as a bowler in ODIs. He is more of  a batsman with several clutch  performances in both formats and a good  support bowler in tests .That's all.

 

Have followed Botham a bit in the 2nd half of his career. Him any day over Stokes as a complete all rounder. Some one who averages  just 42 in ODI bowling can't be an all rounder. Simple.

Edited July 20, 2020 by rtmohanlal

[vvvslaxman]

Definitely stokes ahead of Botham in batting.  Botham is a better bowler. Opening bowler. Ben stokes 2nd change bowler. But in terms of grittiness Stokes is second to none. His musters this self-belief and pulls of miracles. 

[coffee_rules]

I have seen Botham way past his sellby date 1985, in the 92 WC, but have seen clips where he was purely a bowler who could bat. He has had amazing match figures where he would regularly get 6 - 8 wickets and run through the sides. Robelinda has shared this innings , he has had such figures against Aus, Pak, NZ and India.  Stokes is a batsman who could be a 4th or 5th bowler who can contribute regularly with 2 or 3 wickets. Both were amazing fielders, but with modern fitness and techniques Stokes will look better., I would put Botham above Stokes for now.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17126/scorecard/63212/england-vs-pakistan-2nd-test-pakistan-tour-of-england-1978

comes in at 134-5 smashes a 100 and in the second innings of Pak runs through them with a 8fer.

 

Of course the Botham test:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17031/scorecard/63291/england-vs-australia-3rd-test-australia-tour-of-england-1981

6fer in the first go, 50 in the first innings, followon - scores a 100, Bob Willis has a magical spell to win the test after following on, just like India did in Kolkata '01

 

Golden Jubilee test:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17057/scorecard/63262/india-vs-england-only-test-england-tour-of-india-1979-80

6-fer, 100 and a 7-fer. I have never seen Stokes do it yet.

 

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Botham at his peak was known to be a match winner with both bat and ball. Has amazing stats in the 70s - early 80s. As an AR, a peak Botham is ahead of not only Stokes but also the other 3 ARs of his time. As a batsman and a player who can perform under pressure, a peak Stokes is probably better. Since they have different USP, both of them can be accommodated in an Eng 11.

This.

 

Stats don't do justice, in the first half of his career Botham was a genuine match-winner with both bat and ball. I don't think any other AR in the last 40 odd years can compare with that version of Botham.

 

Also to add he remains among the greatest slip catchers of all time, in fact he used to stand a couple of steps forward all the time to convert half chances. Stokes is an all-round brilliant fielder/catcher but purely as a specialist what Botham added in 2nd slip can't be captured by stats...him, Simpson, Ian Chappell, Mark Waugh gave a whole new meaning to slip catching, modern players just don't compare. 

[Trichromatic]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

I havent seen Botham so this is a geniune question to people who have seen botham- is stokes better ?

When i see botham numbers....they dont look extra ordinary . 

The other all rounder england had Flintoff was good enough to play as bowler Acc to me such was his quality. 

So who among Botham n stokes is better if you have to choose one ?

By the time Botham took 250 wickets

Matches: 55

Wickets: 251 (4.5 wickets per match)

Average: 23.68

5-fers: 20

 

Those are like numbers for ATG bowler, not just great bowler, not just good bowler, not average bowlers, not batting all-rounders.

 

From his debut year to 1983

Matches: 63

Wickets: 277

Average: 24.82

5-fers: 20

10-fer: 4

 

Runs: 3548

Avg: 36.57

100s: 12

SR: 61.14

100s: 12

 

During this phase he was 2nd highest century scorer behind Gavaskar.

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SM Gavaskar (INDIA)	1977-1983	71	120	9	5903	236*	53.18	21	23	7
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1983	63	100	3	3548	208	36.57	12	14	10
AR Border (AUS)	1978-1983	55	96	17	3904	162	49.41	11	22	4
GS Chappell (AUS)	1977-1983	45	78	6	3567	235	49.54	11	14	7
G Boycott (ENG)	1977-1982	45	83	9	3535	191	47.77	10	16	4
KJ Hughes (AUS)	1977-1983	60	105	6	4043	213	40.83	9	21	6
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1977-1983	55	86	13	3870	280*	53.01	9	22	3
GR Viswanath (INDIA)	1977-1983	57	90	4	3553	222	41.31	9	20	5
CH Lloyd (WI)	1977-1983	38	55	5	2604	161*	52.08	8	13	0
DB Vengsarkar (INDIA)	1977-1983	64	104	10	3827	159	40.71	8	22	9
GN Yallop (AUS)	1978-1983	34	62	2	2544	268	42.40	8	8	3
Zaheer Abbas (PAK)	1977-1983	44	67	7	3163	235*	52.71	8	14	5

 

He was probably as good as Vegsarkar as batsman.

 

He had most number of 5-fers during this phase.

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1983	63	111	14727	6876	277	8/34	13/106	24.82	2.80	53.1	20	4
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1978-1983	62	101	13341	6844	247	9/83	11/146	27.70	3.07	54.0	18	2
Imran Khan (PAK)	1977-1983	42	74	10587	4465	212	8/58	14/116	21.06	2.53	49.9	16	4
DK Lillee (AUS)	1977-1983	42	78	10867	5073	217	7/83	11/123	23.37	2.80	50.0	16	6
RGD Willis (ENG)	1977-1983	64	118	12539	5673	248	8/43	9/92	22.87	2.71	50.5	14	0
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1977-1983	29	54	8195	3348	145	6/26	11/102	23.08	2.45	56.5	13	2
MA Holding (WI)	1979-1983	29	54	6566	3011	124	6/62	11/107	24.28	2.75	52.9	7	1
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)	1977-1979	17	28	4256	2053	64	6/52	12/104	32.07	2.89	66.5	6	1
DR Doshi (INDIA)	1979-1983	33	55	9322	3502	114	6/102	8/103	30.71	2.25	81.7	6	0
GF Lawson (AUS)	1980-1983	17	30	3842	1876	74	7/81	11/134	25.35	2.92	51.9	6	1
B Yardley (AUS)	1978-1983	33	58	8909	3986	126	7/98	10/185	31.63	2.68	70.7	6	1
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1977-1979	18	33	5422	2244	72	6/71	10/194	31.16	2.48	75.3	5	1
RM Hogg (AUS)	1978-1983	29	51	5898	2546	101	6/74	10/66	25.20	2.59	58.3	5	2

 

At his peak Botham was ranked 3 in ICC batsmen ranking.

 

 

He was ranked 1 bowler for long time

 

 

There were times when he was in top 10 of both bowling and batting rankings.

 

1. Try finding any all rounder who has achieved sub-10 ranking at same time in both batting and bowling.

2. Make it easier - try finding all rounder who has sub-10 ranking ever in both aspects (not necessarily together).

 

Being in top in both facets in something none of the all-rounders have ever managed in their career.

 

Kallis - Batting all rounder. Great batsman, could you ever rate him among 10 bowler in world at any point of time? Did he at any point had any numbers better than other bowlers of his time? 

Peak Batting ranking - 1

Peak Bowling ranking 15

 

Imran Khan - Bowling all rounder - Great bowler, again no one would rate him among top 10 batsman at any point of time in his career. Never a profilic scorer or century maker. Never high batting ranking, never had any numbers high in batting

Peak bowling ranking - 1

Peak batting ranking - 12

 

Kapil Dev - Bowling all rounder. Both batting and bowling numbers were decent, but not as top in any facets except number of wickets.

Peak bowling ranking - 2

Peak batting ranking - 21

 

Gary Sobers - Batting all rounder 

Peak batting ranking - 1

Peak bowling ranking - 4

 

Stokes is an average bowler and good batsman who has played some brilliant knocks. Botham had similar performances with bat and ball. But if anything Stokes is far from Botham.

[Gollum]

Like Sunny, Botham made merry against halwa teams during Packer years...that must be remembered. Both ATGs but their performances in those 3 years elevated their overall career at least statistically.

 

What say @Jimmy Cliff? Waise did you follow Botham's career? 

[Trichromatic]

Stokes is amazing to watch though, captain's delight.

[Jimmy Cliff]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Like Sunny, Botham made merry against halwa teams during Packer years...that must be remembered. Both ATGs but their performances in those 3 years elevated their overall career at least statistically.

 

What say @Jimmy Cliff? Waise did you follow Botham's career? 

Before my time . Beefy did cash in against weakened teams but still has some iconic performances against full strength Australian sides.  He did get more opportunities against them compared to Sunny though. 

[Straight Drive]

Botham at his peak is better cricketer than Stokes at his peak, unless Stokes proves otherwise in remaining part of career.

 

The Headingley test in 1981 is a testament to how Botham could turn even test matches on his own. No surprise it is referred as "Botham's test".

 

[maniac]

Stokes is the no.1 allrounder in the world today, Man of the match in a wc final and a wc winner, IPL MVP in his first season, Played one of the most clutch Ashes knock if that’s a criteria for some, Infamous for the WT20 final over but the fact that he was part of that England team which is a force in T20I as well,

 

I don’t think any of Botham’s accomplishments even come close.

 

Kapil WC winner as captain,WC semi finalist,  Played one of the greatest odi knocks of all time, did it all in tests. At one point highest odi and test wicket taker in the world. That’s a  lot more than what Botham could ever dream of

 

Stop overrating other players and under rating our own.

 

Botham was maybe a shade better than Holder however English media wold make him the best thing since slice bread. Surprisingly they have been not as obnoxious about it with Stokes as they have with Botham and Flintoff.

Edited July 20, 2020 by maniac

[Gollum]

@maniac Your posts should go to this thread

 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Stokes is the no.1 allrounder in the world today, Man of the match in a wc final and a wc winner, IPL MVP in his first season, Played one of the most clutch Ashes knock if that’s a criteria for some, Infamous for the WT20 final over but the fact that he was part of that England team which is a force in T20I as well,

 

I don’t think any of Botham’s accomplishments even come close.

How do you compare a player part of a WC winning team to another who is not and claim greatness? If that is the case, Munaf Patel, Ashish Nehra are to to better bowlers than Richard Hadlee or Srinath because they were part of a WC team. Comparing the peaks of a player to his contemporaries is how we can compare players across generations. Botham was more at peak than his contemporaries than Stokes is in this era. Gun player no doubt, but don't underrate Botham. And  don't rate IPL performance to compare. It is a useless stat.

Quote

Kapil WC winner as captain,WC semi finalist,  Played one of the greatest odi knocks of all time, did it all in tests. At one point highest odi and test wicket taker in the world. That’s a  lot more than what Botham could ever dream of

Well Botham broke Lillee's record and was highest wicket taker in Tests for some time until Richard Hadlee broke it. KD huffed and puffed to get to Hadlee's record. 

 

Quote

Stop overrating other players and under rating our own.

 

Botham was maybe a shade better than Holder however English media wold make him the best thing since slice bread. Surprisingly they have been not as obnoxious about it with Stokes as they have with Botham and Flintoff.

Botham > Stokes >>>>> Flintoff. Flintoff is overrated only for one Ashes victory performance in 2005.

[rkt.india]

Any good bowling video of Botham. From videos he always looked fat, inoccuous bowler like Grandgomme.

[Rightarmfast]

I remember a bit of Botham, and he was way ahead any other english allrounder mentioned here. I dont rate Stokes as a bowler. For me, that takes away a lot from him being called a genuine allrounder like Botham. 

[Clarke]

@maniac in your book is Andy Flower any better than Saba Karim based on his lack of team trophies