Gollum Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) GC against India's spin quartet would have been interesting. Doug Walters faced a torrid time against Bedi in the 69-70 series while Ian struggled against Prasanna. Now both those legends dominated Lance Gibbs in WI, both terrific against spin. Quartet for a 7-8 years period was a big challenge for the best batsmen. Greg Chappell's resume is incomplete, a great player indeed (esp if you add WSC stats) but there is a reason he will be behind King Viv in my book. Edited July 22, 2020 by Gollum coffee_rules 1 Link to comment
zen Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, maniac said: I remember Amre and Kapil’s 100’s in SA but forgot about Sachin getting one in 1992 itself. True G O A T Thank you @zen Do you mean GOAT just like Amre and Kapil? Edited July 22, 2020 by zen Link to comment
zen Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) Revisited Chappell's numbers .... At the basic level, those are among the best numbers ..... An avg of less than 50 against only one country, which is acceptable! Overall pretty solid relatively. Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 4s 6s overall 1970-1984 87 151 19 7110 247* 53.86 24 31 12 755 16 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 4s 6s v England 1970-1983 35 65 8 2619 144 45.94 9 12 4 291 4 v India 1981-1981 3 5 0 368 204 73.60 1 2 1 44 0 v New Zealand 1973-1982 14 22 3 1076 247* 56.63 3 3 3 129 5 v Pakistan 1972-1984 17 27 2 1581 235 63.24 6 6 1 142 3 v Sri Lanka 1983-1983 1 1 0 66 66 66.00 0 1 0 7 0 v West Indies 1973-1982 17 31 6 1400 182* 56.00 5 7 3 142 4 It is good to know Lillee and Chappell liked to smash Pak Edited July 22, 2020 by zen Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) I looked at Aus in India in 70s and 80s. They only made 2 trips - 1 in each decade: 1979: Only trip during Chappell's tenure. Appears as if they sent a B team with key players resting (or playing the World Series Cricket). A parallel could be current key Indian players sitting out of some tours. 1986: This was after Chappell retired. This series involved that tied test. And when Aus was in rebuilding phase. The above shows a lack of intensity in the Ind-Aus rivalry in that period. Reflecting back, I can understand key Aus players skipping the tour to India for a series with low intensity taking place one a decade, and maybe the allure of World Series Cricket. I think the Ind vs. Aus intensity picked up post 1998 once the Aus-WI rivalry began to fade away. Post 1998, Aus has been making 3 trips per decade on an average to India (they last did that in the 60s). Also the cricket b/w the two has been interesting! Edited July 23, 2020 by zen Link to comment
coffee_rules Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 ^^ What I read was India was supposed to travel after Aus visited India in 1969-70 , India won in Eng next year in Wi and Eng, so they were more lucrative. India was supposed to travel in 1975, but Aus picked WI over India. 1979 , packer series was almost over, but Aus toured India mins GC, DL etc. So can’t blame him. But he was not meant to play. India played more of Eng, WI and Pak in those times Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: ^^ What I read was India was supposed to travel after Aus visited India in 1969-70 , India won in Eng next year in Wi and Eng, so they were more lucrative. India was supposed to travel in 1975, but Aus picked WI over India. 1979 , packer series was almost over, but Aus toured India mins GC, DL etc. So can’t blame him. But he was not meant to play. India played more of Eng, WI and Pak in those times To be fair to Chappell and Lillee, Aus only toured India once during their careers, so we should stop being harsh on them for not touring India as if Aus used to tour frequently and they used to skip all those tours. It is not a big deal Both these players have served India - one as the coach (bringing some innovation including questioning superstardom) and the other through MRF pace foundation. Edited July 23, 2020 by zen Norman 1 Link to comment
coffee_rules Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 Take up Barrington and Sangakarra. They have perfect 58xx averages to debug Link to comment
NameGoesHere Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Love the thread title. Imagine going up to SRT, Lara, Ponting and that other ATG, Shahid Afridi, with this line: "Mr SRT/Lara/Ponting/ Afridi, how are you today? I'm from ICF, and I've got excel and statsguru tools to, erm, expose your holes....." Gollum, Mariyam, Stan AF and 6 others 9 Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: Take up Barrington and Sangakarra. They have perfect 58xx averages to debug If we make a basic qualification of having an avg of 50 or more vs. 80% of opposition against whom a batsman played at least 3 test matches: Barrington qualifies if we take 49.45 as 50. If not, he does not qualify as technically 49.45 = 49 areer averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 overall 1955-1968 82 131 15 6806 256 58.67 20 35 5 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 v Australia 1961-1968 23 39 6 2111 256 63.96 5 13 1 v India 1959-1967 14 21 3 1355 172 75.27 3 9 0 v New Zealand 1963-1965 5 6 0 594 163 99.00 3 1 0 v Pakistan 1961-1967 9 12 3 715 148 79.44 4 2 1 v South Africa 1955-1965 14 23 3 989 148* 49.45 2 6 1 v West Indies 1960-1968 17 30 0 1042 143 34.73 3 4 2 ^ 4/6 = 67% .... or 5/6 = 83% (one avg of 49.45) Sangakkara does not qualify Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s overall 2000-2015 134 233 17 12400 319 57.40 22882 54.19 38 52 11 1491 51 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s v Australia 2004-2012 11 21 1 878 192 43.90 1809 48.53 1 7 1 110 2 v Bangladesh 2001-2014 15 21 2 1816 319 95.57 3042 59.69 7 7 1 201 16 v England 2001-2014 22 40 1 1568 152 40.20 3313 47.32 3 9 3 200 1 v India 2001-2015 17 28 2 1352 219 52.00 2633 51.34 5 2 0 162 3 v New Zealand 2003-2015 12 21 3 887 203 49.27 1477 60.05 4 2 1 117 6 v Pakistan 2002-2015 23 45 6 2911 230 74.64 5331 54.60 10 12 2 307 14 v South Africa 2000-2014 17 32 0 1534 287 47.93 2714 56.52 3 7 2 208 4 v West Indies 2001-2010 12 19 2 918 157* 54.00 1818 50.49 3 5 1 110 1 v Zimbabwe 2001-2004 5 6 0 536 270 89.33 745 71.94 2 1 0 76 4 ^ 5/9 = 56% .... or 6/9 = 67% (one avg of 49.27) So far qualified: 1. Bradman = 100% 2. G Chappell = 80% Conditional: 1. Barrington Edited July 23, 2020 by zen coffee_rules 1 Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Similarly for bowlers - a basic qualification of a bowling average of 25 or less vs. 80% of opposition against whom a bowler has played at least 3 test matches. Qualified: Malcolm Marshall Career averages Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 overall 1978-1991 81 151 2930.4 614 7876 376 7/22 11/89 20.94 2.68 46.7 22 4 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Australia 1984-1991 19 36 722.3 136 1959 87 5/29 10/107 22.51 2.71 49.8 7 1 v England 1980-1991 26 50 965.0 232 2436 127 7/22 10/92 19.18 2.52 45.5 6 1 v India 1978-1989 17 30 584.3 128 1671 76 6/37 11/89 21.98 2.85 46.1 6 1 v New Zealand 1985-1987 7 12 289.1 51 775 36 7/80 11/120 21.52 2.68 48.1 1 1 v Pakistan 1980-1990 12 23 369.3 67 1035 50 5/33 9/144 20.70 2.80 44.3 2 0 5/5 = 100% Richard Hadlee Career averages Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 overall 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63 50.8 36 9 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Australia 1973-1990 23 41 6099 2674 130 9/52 15/123 20.56 2.63 46.9 14 3 v England 1973-1990 21 35 5853 2399 97 6/26 10/100 24.73 2.45 60.3 8 2 v India 1976-1990 14 24 3106 1493 65 7/23 11/58 22.96 2.88 47.7 4 2 v Pakistan 1973-1989 12 20 2949 1448 51 6/51 8/110 28.39 2.94 57.8 4 0 v Sri Lanka 1983-1987 6 11 1405 473 37 5/29 10/102 12.78 2.01 37.9 2 1 v West Indies 1980-1987 10 19 2506 1124 51 6/50 11/102 22.03 2.69 49.1 4 1 5/6 = 83% Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Allan Donald qualifies: Career averages Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 overall 1992-2002 72 129 2586.3 661 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25 2.83 47.0 20 3 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Australia 1993-2002 14 24 544.2 115 1647 53 6/59 9/133 31.07 3.02 61.6 2 0 v England 1994-2000 17 30 652.0 170 1982 86 6/53 11/127 23.04 3.03 45.4 9 1 v India 1992-2000 11 20 415.4 121 987 57 7/84 12/139 17.31 2.37 43.7 3 1 v New Zealand 1995-2000 5 9 177.0 56 443 21 4/69 6/112 21.09 2.50 50.5 0 0 v Pakistan 1995-1998 6 11 180.0 32 604 27 5/79 8/74 22.37 3.35 40.0 1 0 v Sri Lanka 1993-2001 6 11 206.0 58 556 29 5/54 8/127 19.17 2.69 42.6 2 0 v West Indies 1992-2001 10 18 309.2 76 894 43 5/49 7/82 20.79 2.89 43.1 2 0 v Zimbabwe 1995-1999 3 6 102.1 33 231 14 8/71 11/113 16.50 2.26 43.7 1 1 7/8 = 88% Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Qualified so far Batsmen Bradman G Chappell Bowlers Marshall Donald Hadlee Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 2 hours ago, zen said: To be fair to Chappell and Lillee, Aus only toured India once during their careers, so we should stop being harsh on them for not touring India as if Aus used to tour frequently and they used to skip all those tours. It is not a big deal Both these players have served India - one as the coach (bringing some innovation including questioning superstardom) and the other through MRF pace foundation. If we are questioning whether player toured a certain country or not, then can we question that Bradman didn't face fast bowlers in his career and his numbers are mostly against what we would call slow-medium pacers today? Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: If we are questioning whether player toured a certain country or not, then can we question that Bradman didn't face fast bowlers in his career and his numbers are mostly against what we would call slow-medium pacers today? We are not anymore. Edited July 23, 2020 by zen Link to comment
Mariyam Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 6 hours ago, NameGoesHere said: Love the thread title. Imagine going up to SRT, Lara, Ponting and that other ATG, Shahid Afridi, with this line: "Mr SRT/Lara/Ponting/ Afridi, how are you today? I'm from ICF, and I've got excel and statsguru tools to, erm, expose your holes....." I would give you a 100 upvotes for this comment if the site allowed me to. All this nerd talk is very tiresome. The very idea of using statistics/excel/graphs to determine the purported greatness of a cricketer is flawed. Greatness is measured by moments of magic on the field and by nothing else. coffee_rules, NameGoesHere, Stan AF and 4 others 1 6 Link to comment
kohli Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 5 hours ago, zen said: Allan Donald qualifies: Career averages Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 overall 1992-2002 72 129 2586.3 661 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25 2.83 47.0 20 3 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Australia 1993-2002 14 24 544.2 115 1647 53 6/59 9/133 31.07 3.02 61.6 2 0 v England 1994-2000 17 30 652.0 170 1982 86 6/53 11/127 23.04 3.03 45.4 9 1 v India 1992-2000 11 20 415.4 121 987 57 7/84 12/139 17.31 2.37 43.7 3 1 v New Zealand 1995-2000 5 9 177.0 56 443 21 4/69 6/112 21.09 2.50 50.5 0 0 v Pakistan 1995-1998 6 11 180.0 32 604 27 5/79 8/74 22.37 3.35 40.0 1 0 v Sri Lanka 1993-2001 6 11 206.0 58 556 29 5/54 8/127 19.17 2.69 42.6 2 0 v West Indies 1992-2001 10 18 309.2 76 894 43 5/49 7/82 20.79 2.89 43.1 2 0 v Zimbabwe 1995-1999 3 6 102.1 33 231 14 8/71 11/113 16.50 2.26 43.7 1 1 7/8 = 88% Can you check mcgrath record Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 The chink in Bradman's armour isn't his performance in the Bodyline series but his record on the so-called "sticky dogs". His average goes down to 20 on these wickets. MATCHES INNINGS RUNS NO AVERAGE HS 100 50 0 11 15 284 1 20.29 82 0 1 4 41 65 6712 9 119.90 334 29 12 3 The Curious Case of the Don and the Sticky Wicket coffee_rules, maniac and Gollum 3 Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, kohli said: Can you check mcgrath record Career averages Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 overall 1993-2007 124 243 4874.4 1470 12186 563 8/24 10/27 21.64 2.49 51.9 29 3 Profile Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Bangladesh 2003-2003 2 4 55.1 17 124 5 3/20 4/45 24.80 2.24 66.2 0 0 v England 1994-2007 30 60 1213.2 331 3286 157 8/38 9/82 20.92 2.70 46.3 10 0 v ICC World XI 2005-2005 1 2 18.0 7 42 3 2/34 3/42 14.00 2.33 36.0 0 0 v India 1996-2004 11 22 426.2 157 951 51 5/48 10/103 18.64 2.23 50.1 2 1 v New Zealand 1993-2005 14 27 571.1 172 1444 57 6/115 7/89 25.33 2.52 60.1 2 0 v Pakistan 1994-2005 17 33 639.1 173 1736 80 8/24 9/68 21.70 2.71 47.9 3 0 v South Africa 1994-2006 17 32 680.2 223 1558 57 6/86 8/49 27.33 2.29 71.6 2 0 v Sri Lanka 1995-2004 8 15 304.4 84 823 37 5/37 7/61 22.24 2.70 49.4 2 0 v West Indies 1995-2005 23 46 912.3 287 2132 110 6/17 10/27 19.38 2.33 49.7 8 2 v Zimbabwe 1999-1999 1 2 54.0 19 90 6 3/44 6/90 15.00 1.66 54.0 0 0 5/7 = 71% .... if we round off 25.33 vs NZ to 25, then 6/7 = 86% so a conditional qualification based on rounding. Edited July 23, 2020 by zen Link to comment
Gollum Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 30 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: The chink in Bradman's armour isn't his performance in the Bodyline series but his record on the so-called "sticky dogs". His average goes down to 20 on these wickets. MATCHES INNINGS RUNS NO AVERAGE HS 100 50 0 11 15 284 1 20.29 82 0 1 4 41 65 6712 9 119.90 334 29 12 3 The Curious Case of the Don and the Sticky Wicket Valid point. Link to comment
zen Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Gollum said: Valid point. I do not think it is a chink as there are no more sticky wickets and the data itself is unverified - "By my reckoning there were fifteen of Bradman’s Test innings which we can consider rain-affected and treat them separately – here are the adjusted averages:-" Link to comment
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