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coffee_rules

Any player in Cricket can be picked out with Statistical holes.

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12 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I knew that Don failed on stickies but thought the sample size would be small. Clearly not if one goes by JC's link....11 tests, 15 innings is almost 20% of his playing career. 

 

Doesn't matter if there are no more sticky dogs, Bradman's peers and almost all the pre-WWII players had to face that test and ATGs like Hobbs, Hammond, Headley, Trumper, Sutcliffe, Hutton passed the challenge with flying colours. So definitely a chink. 

 

Regarding the data, unless someone can counter the stats I think we must go by what the author said. If you want to go by peer review, there are enough observations which highlight the GOAT's struggles on stickies, most notable among them by Sutcliffe. 

Those stats are not to be taken at face value: 

 

a) Bradman's performance is compared with Bradman's only (there is no benchmark presented to judge his performance)

 

b) Uses methodology such as 

13-Jun-1930 England 8 & 131 wicket had improved by the 4th innings, so only his first innings was affected

 

  • Therefore his 131 is dismissed. And when most of Australian side struggled in those conditions esp. the first inning. Has such level of analysis where when it rained at what moment when a batsman batted performed for other players too to gain insights into what is the  benchmark? How are the scores accounted for when a batsmen is on 80 before the rain and scores 20 after the rain. Does he take the entire 100 as scored on sticky wicket for other players? 

 

Another example:

22-Jun-1934 England 36 & 13 both innings affected by rain

 

If we look at the scorecard - Link - most of the Australian team struggled (only one batsman did well) and we do not know the extent of rain interruption in the first inning of England esp. when the author was particular about:

 

"Although rain fell in a significant number of the Tests in which he played, not all necessarily affected the Don’s own innings – here is a listing of all of the Tests in which Bradman appeared which were affected by rain, together with details of the relevant innings:-"

 

11-Jun-1930 England 334 rain affected the pitch after Bradman’s innings

 

 

c) Because of the such discrepancies, the author has even given a disclaimer of "by my reckoning" 

 

 

Even if you take 20% at face value, do we know the percentage for other cricketers esp. through analysis as to exact conditions of rain of when they batted like they did for Bradman. That 20% could very well be acceptable :lol: 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, zen said:

To me that sounds like blaming stats or even trying to misrepresent it by implying that others factors are not considered or accounted as your favorite player does not measure up on them :lol:  

As Ravi Shastri/Sidhu once quoted a famous quote "Statistics are like mini-skirts, shows a lot of things but does not show what is essentially". They are a strawman's delight.

 

Quote

If your post is from a Tendulkar fanboy perspective  - they are the last ones who should be complaining about stats. Many of them have wasted their lives in an effort to blow his horn by relying on stats including combine Tests and ODI runs, attacking players such as Bradman, Richards, Lara, and even Indian ones like Gavaskar, and so on. I am not sure if many of them even enjoy performances of other cricketers :dontknow:  .... At the foremost, we should be cricket fans not an individual cricketer fans 

Fair enough. I don't consider him god, I rate IVAR and Gavaskar higher than him.  But, I wouldn't still not compare him with a Hahane using Statsguru.  But he's a fan's delight to watch cricket. 

 

Quote

 

 

That information is actually acquired from stats by trying to figure out which innings were impacted by sticky wickets. However, this particular information is unreliable by the author's own reckoning as it depends on what the person is able to identify as those conditions, which do not even matter now :winky: 

 

 

That's a fair exercise to go to each match report and find out. Why do you say it doesn't matter now? There are no sticky wickets now, but it was there then. Why don't you consider what matters now and not then - fast bowlers/Short pitch bowlers and compare modern players only against dibbly-dobbly medium pacers, the modern batsman will also look like Bradmans.

Edited by coffee_rules

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9 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

As Ravi Shastri/Najot Sidhu once quoted a famous quote "Statistics are like mini-skirts, shows a lot of things but does not show what is essentially". They are a strawman's delight.

 

They do not claim to understand stats either

 

 

Quote

Fair enough. I don't consider him god, I rate IVAR and Gavaskar higher than him.  But, I wouldn't still not compare him with a Hahane using Statsguru.  But he's a fan's delight to watch cricket. 

Their attitude/outputs are similar. It is like saying M3 is like a Ferrari in its category. That does not mean M3 = Ferrari but how M3 performs in its league is similar to how a Ferrari performance amongst its competition. On the other hand, if someone says that that M3 performs like a Corolla, it implies that despite being a sports focused car, it performs like a typical family sedan or how a Corolla performs in sportiness with respect to other family sedans is how M3 performs in sportiness wrt to other sports sedans

 

 

Quote

That's a fair exercise to go to each match report and find out. Why do you say it doesn't matter now? There are no sticky wickets now, but it was there then. Why don't you consider what matters now - fast bowlers/Short pitch bowlers and compare modern players only against dibbly-dobbly medium pacers, the modern batsman will also look like Bradmans.

It is explained in my post above yours. 

Edited by zen

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@zen The "sticky" wicket weakness is not to compare Bradman with others with similar weaknesses to call it irrelavent. Others are already inferior on performance anyway. 

But, if a fellow batsman who is inferior to him  scores a 100 and he fails in a rain affected match, then it's considered a chink in his armour. If they are 20% cases, then it can be proclaimed. Bradman's GOAT doesn't get affected, but at least show where he was vulnerable. 

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16 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

@zen The "sticky" wicket weakness is not to compare Bradman with others with similar weaknesses to call it irrelavent. Others are already inferior on performance anyway. 

But, if a fellow batsman who is inferior to him  scores a 100 and he fails in a rain affected match, then it's considered a chink in his armour. If they are 20% cases, then it can be proclaimed. Bradman's GOAT doesn't get affected, but at least show where he was vulnerable. 

Are you implying that Bradman because he is Bradman has to score a 100 no matter what the conditions are? So if it is a flat wicket, everyone scores and Bradman scores a 100. If it is a sticky wicket, where the avg is say 20 (we don't know the number) and Bradman still has to score a 100 and a 25-30 won't do :hmmmm2:

 

PS that 20% (based on questionable analysis and without knowing the guiding post) = 2 innings in 10. So in a 5 match series of 10 potential innings, that is only 2! Even if he gets 2 ducks but scores 4 100s in remaining 8, that is class leading

 

If you look at my point on Bodyline, I showed that Bradman's performance was in fact class leading when the reference point was understood. Like in Bodyline earlier, here too, we are attempting to judge information without a guide. 

 

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8 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I have read writers of 80s considered 40 as a good average for justifying inclusion, 45 is great. Batting averages shot up in the 90s and beyond. So, for comparing now 50 is what we feel is ATGness. But not so for earlier eras. GRV's 41.xx is around the same as Ganguly and Ravi Shastri. But, GRV is rated higher by all peers who have seen him bat, but will laugh at somebody who says he is the same as Ravi Shastri looking at the stats. 

No, batting averages shot up post 2003. 2003-2012 was one of the easiest time for batting.

 

90s was most difficult, more than 80s. 

 

Bowling averages by decades:

 

Overall figures
Decade Players Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
1870s 37 3 59 4758 1837 101 7/55 13/110 18.18 2.31 47.1 6 1 investigate this query
1880s 112 29 500 48342 17618 915 8/11 15/28 19.25 2.18 52.8 58 13 investigate this query
1900s 103 41 774 73940 33133 1333 8/31 15/99 24.85 2.68 55.4 87 13 investigate this query
1890s 149 32 571 62052 26149 1038 9/28 15/45 25.19 2.52 59.7 64 15 investigate this query
1910s 98 29 585 51945 24591 914 9/103 17/159 26.90 2.84 56.8 53 11 investigate this query
1950s 351 164 3095 374366 137508 4818 10/53 19/90 28.54 2.20 77.7 233 33 investigate this query
2020s 133 12 230 23853 11505 374 7/113 10/118 30.76 2.89 63.7 17 1 investigate this query
1990s 500 347 6556 700101 321529 10204 10/74 16/220 31.51 2.75 68.6 425 55 investigate this query
1970s 321 198 3974 446566 188130 5896 9/86 16/137 31.90 2.52 75.7 228 31 investigate this query
1980s 382 266 4805 528477 239888 7474 9/52 16/136 32.09 2.72 70.7 346 55 investigate this query
1960s 347 186 3892 448076 178064 5546 8/38 12/101 32.10 2.38 80.7 216 23 investigate this query
1930s 294 89 1679 189322 81544 2536 8/43 15/104 32.15 2.58 74.6 114 23 investigate this query
2010s 600 433 8581 845725 439249 13534 9/127 14/184 32.45 3.11 62.4 552 76 investigate this query
1920s 172 51 948 114614 48620 1462 9/121 13/236 33.25 2.54 78.3 68 11 investigate this query
2000s 586 464 9038 916337 472755 13863 9/51 15/217 34.10 3.09 66.0 522 79 investigate this query
1940s 180 45 909 107012 44926 1271 7/38 11/31 35.34 2.51 84.1 58 6

 

 

Batting averages by decades

 

Decade Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
1940s 180 45 1527 216 44926 234 34.26 105 192 140 investigate this query
2000s 586 464 16468 2127 459217 400* 32.02 945 2051 1831 investigate this query
1920s 172 51 1751 226 48620 251 31.88 99 228 142 investigate this query
2010s 600 433 15906 2001 432804 335* 31.12 866 1995 1727 investigate this query
1930s 294 89 3015 395 81544 364 31.12 161 359 319 investigate this query
1960s 347 186 6671 893 178064 311 30.81 298 882 622 investigate this query
1970s 321 198 7053 938 188130 302 30.76 359 875 719 investigate this query
1980s 382 266 8964 1230 235573 280* 30.45 444 1069 902 investigate this query
2020s 133 12 439 55 11375 215 29.62 15 55 40 investigate this query
1990s 500 347 12147 1583 311162 375 29.45 547 1498 1422 investigate this query
1950s 351 164 5759 738 137508 365* 27.38 237 594 657 investigate this query
1910s 98 29 1066 117 24591 214* 25.91 35 115 130 investigate this query
1890s 149 32 1214 133 26149 201 24.18 39 111 140 investigate this query
1900s 103 41 1573 185 33133 287 23.87 42 146 185 investigate this query
1880s 112 29 1077 120 17618 211 18.40 19 58 141 investigate this query
1870s 37 3 120 15 1837 165* 17.49 1 5 12

 

 

 

1. 1870s-1880s and 1890s-1910s - Cricket was evolving. Amateur to professional. Low batting average, low scores were normal score for teams.

 

2. 1920-1940s - World Wars, interruption in cricket, evolution of batting, high batting averages - Bradman era, some good batsmen, nothing much on bowling side.

 

Bowlers were slow-medium pacers. They were trying to figure out what to do with batsmen e.g. bodyline series. In addition to that bowlers were like labors

  1. Game between 2 countries (England and Australia) mostly with some tours to other countries.
  2. Very long day - 7 hrs+. English conditions and daylight meant they could play longer.
  3. Lot of overs - 120-130 overs were normal)
  4. Short cricket season - county cricket was of 4 months and there wasn't much cricket outside that
  5. Packed cricket schedule - During that 4 months, a team used to play continuous cricket with 1 or 2 days break between games. That type of schedule happens only in gully cricket only now where you play almost everyday
  6. Travel time - other than that team used to spend lot of time in travelling
  7. Slow-medium pace bowling
  8.  Result - those averages highest in history of game.

Bowling in this era:

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
WJ O'Reilly (AUS) 1932-1938 26 46 9910 3221 136 7/54 11/129 23.68 1.95 72.8 10 3 investigate this query
CV Grimmett (AUS) 1925-1936 37 67 14513 5231 216 7/40 14/199 24.21 2.16 67.1 21 7 investigate this query
H Verity (ENG) 1931-1939 40 73 11173 3510 144 8/43 15/104 24.37 1.88 77.5 5 2 investigate this query
W Voce (ENG) 1930-1937 24 46 5852 2526 97 7/70 11/149 26.04 2.58 60.3 3 2 investigate this query
MW Tate (ENG) 1924-1935 39 68 12523 4055 155 6/42 11/228 26.16 1.94 80.7 7 1 investigate this query
JM Gregory (AUS) 1920-1928 24 42 5582 2648 85 7/69 8/101 31.15 2.84 65.6 4 0

 

 

Batting in this era

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
DG Bradman (AUS) 1928-1938 37 57 5 5093 334 97.94 21 8 4 investigate this query
GA Headley (WI) 1930-1939 19 35 3 2135 270* 66.71 10 5 2 investigate this query
WR Hammond (ENG) 1927-1939 77 127 15 6883 336* 61.45 22 22 4 investigate this query
H Sutcliffe (ENG) 1924-1935 54 84 9 4555 194 60.73 16 23 2 investigate this query
JB Hobbs (ENG) 1920-1930 33 53 1 2945 211 56.63 10 12 1

 

 

3. 1950s - Decade with relief for bowlers - as the cricket start spreading to other countries, and dust of WW2 settled, number of overs and workload reduced and bowlers improved. Likes of Fred Trueman sowed seeds of pace bowling in international cricket. Low bowling averages, and worse batting averages - will share stats below.

 

Bowling in this decade:

Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
JC Laker (ENG) 1950-1959 38 72 9783 2992 162 10/53 19/90 18.46 1.83 60.3 8 3 investigate this query
AV Bedser (ENG) 1950-1955 28 51 8370 2917 147 7/44 14/99 19.84 2.09 56.9 13 3 investigate this query
FS Trueman (ENG) 1952-1959 31 60 6200 2685 128 8/31 9/40 20.97 2.59 48.4 5 0 investigate this query
Fazal Mahmood (PAK) 1952-1959 26 43 7815 2765 125 7/42 13/114 22.12 2.12 62.5 12 4 investigate this query
JB Statham (ENG) 1951-1959 47 87 9995 3737 159 7/39 9/88 23.50 2.24 62.8 5 0 investigate this query
R Benaud (AUS) 1952-1959 42 74 11201 3952 165 7/72 11/105 23.95 2.11 67.8 11 1 investigate this query
HJ Tayfield (SA) 1950-1958 30 52 11875 3686 153 9/113 13/165 24.09 1.86 77.6 14 2 investigate this query
RR Lindwall (AUS) 1950-1959 42 77 9470 3687 152 7/43 8/112 24.25 2.33 62.3 7 0

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
CL Walcott (WI) 1950-1958 33 57 6 3129 220 61.35 13 11 1 investigate this query
L Hutton (ENG) 1950-1955 38 66 10 3183 205 56.83 8 16 2 investigate this query
GS Sobers (WI) 1954-1959 27 46 7 2213 365* 56.74 6 7 1 investigate this query
ED Weekes (WI) 1950-1958 39 68 5 3383 207 53.69 10 17 6 investigate this query
RN Harvey (AUS) 1950-1959 56 99 8 4573 205 50.25 15 19 5 investigate this query
PBH May (ENG) 1951-1959 59 93 8 4182 285* 49.20 13 20 6

 

 

3. 1960s - Era of covered covered. This is when I guess covered pitches became norm and conditions became more batting friendly resulting in dip in bowling averages and rise in batting averages. So we had batsmen like Barrington and Sobers with 55+ averages.

 

Bowling in 60s:

Except Trueman, no one had sub-25 avg

 

Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
FS Trueman (ENG) 1960-1965 36 67 8978 3940 179 7/44 12/119 22.01 2.63 50.1 12 3 investigate this query
LR Gibbs (WI) 1961-1969 42 77 15483 5124 184 8/38 11/157 27.84 1.98 84.1 12 2 investigate this query
GD McKenzie (AUS) 1961-1969 54 102 16132 6644 238 8/71 10/91 27.91 2.47 67.7 16 3 investigate this query
WW Hall (WI) 1960-1969 40 76 8486 4249 146 7/69 9/105 29.10 3.00 58.1 6 0

 

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
GS Sobers (WI) 1960-1969 49 86 10 4563 226 60.03 15 19 7 investigate this query
KF Barrington (ENG) 1960-1968 75 122 15 6397 256 59.78 20 31 4 investigate this query
TW Graveney (ENG) 1962-1969 31 47 3 2292 165 52.09 7 9 1 investigate this query
RB Simpson (AUS) 1960-1968 46 84 6 3995 311 51.21 8 23 6 investigate this query
ER Dexter (ENG) 1960-1968 55 92 8 4232 205 50.38 8 26 4 investigate this query
RB Kanhai (WI) 1960-1969 43 76 1 3739 153 49.85 10 18 2 investigate this query
WM Lawry (AUS) 1961-1969 58 105 10 4717 210 49.65 13 23 5

 

 

4. 1970s - Further evolution of bowling - I believe Lillee was first fast bowler of history of the game, and he inspired likes of Imran Khan, WI, who were relying on slow bowlers, transformed in late 70s with their 4 fast bowlers, India with spin quartet, NZ with Hadlee meant that after 70s bowling was improving and batting averages took a hit.

 

Bowling in 70s

Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
DK Lillee (AUS) 1971-1980 35 68 9510 4376 184 6/26 11/123 23.78 2.76 51.6 12 4 investigate this query
RGD Willis (ENG) 1971-1979 51 95 9916 4511 182 7/78 9/118 24.78 2.72 54.4 11 0 investigate this query
AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1980 29 57 7339 3521 140 7/54 12/121 25.15 2.87 52.4 9 2 investigate this query
JR Thomson (AUS) 1972-1979 34 61 7512 3892 152 6/46 9/105 25.60 3.10 49.4 6 0 investigate this query
MHN Walker (AUS) 1972-1977 34 63 10094 3792 138 8/143 8/143 27.47 2.25 73.1 6 0 investigate this query
DL Underwood (ENG) 1970-1979 59 106 15380 5587 202 8/51 13/71 27.65 2.17 76.1 10 4

 

Batting in 70s.

 

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
Javed Miandad (PAK) 1976-1979 25 43 11 2059 206 64.34 6 10 2 investigate this query
IVA Richards (WI) 1974-1980 30 49 2 2736 291 58.21 9 9 2 investigate this query
G Boycott (ENG) 1970-1979 44 77 9 3806 191 55.97 12 21 2 investigate this query
SM Gavaskar (INDIA) 1971-1979 60 108 7 5647 221 55.91 22 25 6 investigate this query
GS Chappell (AUS) 1970-1980 54 96 13 4398 247* 52.98 15 21 6 investigate this query
IR Redpath (AUS) 1970-1976 33 64 7 2861 171 50.19 7 18 3 investigate this query
AI Kallicharran (WI) 1972-1980 53 89 9 3956 187 49.45 11 20 7 investigate this query
GM Turner (NZ) 1971-1977 30 52 4 2370 259 49.37 6 11 0 investigate this query
DL Amiss (ENG) 1971-1977 45 80 9 3487 262* 49.11 11 11 8

 

 

5. 1980s - Those bowler who started in 2nd of 70s were hitting peak in 80s making it one of the toughest decade for batting. WI pacers had luxury of bowling less than 90 overs, they could take long breaks, long run ups and ensure that they maintain pace making it further difficult for batsmen. Add to that matches wouldn't complete full quota of overs for 5 days. Less than 400 overs was normal and even with low scores there were lot of drawn games. 

 

Bowlers in 80s:

Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
Imran Khan (PAK) 1980-1989 54 90 2006.4 483 4896 256 8/58 14/116 19.12 2.43 47.0 18 5 investigate this query
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1980-1989 53 91 2309.2 628 5574 289 9/52 15/123 19.28 2.41 47.9 28 7 investigate this query
MD Marshall (WI) 1980-1989 63 120 2399.5 512 6434 323 7/22 11/89 19.91 2.68 44.5 22 4 investigate this query
J Garner (WI) 1980-1987 49 93 1814.3 492 4331 210 6/56 9/108 20.62 2.38 51.8 7 0 investigate this query
MA Holding (WI) 1980-1987 45 84 1545.2 338 4302 184 6/21 11/107 23.38 2.78 50.3 9 1 investigate this query
DK Lillee (AUS) 1980-1984 35 64 1492.5 356 4117 171 7/83 11/138 24.07 2.75 52.3 11 3 investigate this query
Iqbal Qasim (PAK) 1980-1988 32 57 1468.2 453 3274 131 7/49 11/118 24.99 2.22 67.2 7 1 investigate this query
RGD Willis (ENG) 1980-1984 39 70 1240.1 274 3679 143 8/43 9/92 25.72 2.96 52.0 5 0

 

Top batsmen:

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
GS Chappell (AUS) 1980-1984 33 55 6 2712 235 55.34 9 10 6 investigate this query
AR Border (AUS) 1980-1989 97 164 30 7386 205 55.11 20 40 4 investigate this query
Javed Miandad (PAK) 1980-1989 76 110 7 5642 280* 54.77 16 26 3 investigate this query
CH Lloyd (WI) 1980-1985 44 61 6 2881 161* 52.38 8 17 1 investigate this query
DM Jones (AUS) 1984-1989 30 53 7 2370 216 51.52 7 9 4 investigate this query
IVA Richards (WI) 1980-1989 78 112 8 5113 208 49.16 15 28 7

 

6. 1990s - While 1980s was tough, still teams were limited to 1-2 good bowlers except for WI. 1990s remains toughest era for batting in last 70 years. Many ATG bowlers, sub-25 avg, diverse skill set, quality and pitch conditions. Not just pace, teams were tested against quality spinners and dustbowls. Wasim, Waqar, Warne, McGrath, Kumble at home, Murali, Vaas, Donald, Pollock, Walsh, Ambrose - Many teams had great bowlers. Averaging 50 was difficult in this decade. ODI cricket became popular, cricket becmae hit in subcontinent. Teams played lot of ODIs and less tests (especially SC teams).

 

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 1990-1999 69 109 12 5626 217 58.00 22 21 7 investigate this query
SR Waugh (AUS) 1990-1999 89 143 26 6213 200 53.10 18 28 11 investigate this query
BC Lara (WI) 1990-1999 65 112 4 5573 375 51.60 13 29 4 investigate this query
GA Gooch (ENG) 1990-1995 45 83 2 4176 333 51.55 12 17 3 investigate this query
R Dravid (INDIA) 1996-1999 34 58 4 2698 190 49.96 6 16 1 investigate this query
SC Ganguly (INDIA) 1996-1999 32 54 5 2432 173 49.63 7 12 4 investigate this query
PA de Silva (SL) 1990-1999 62 104 9 4448 267 46.82 14 18 6

 

  1. Only 4 batsmen averaging 50+ and only 1 with 55+ avg!
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
CEL Ambrose (WI) 1990-1999 71 128 2691.2 728 6224 309 8/45 11/84 20.14 2.31 52.2 21 3 investigate this query
SM Pollock (SA) 1995-1999 38 67 1411.4 407 3294 161 7/87 9/103 20.45 2.33 52.6 10 0 investigate this query
Wasim Akram (PAK) 1990-1999 62 111 2355.4 529 6200 289 7/119 11/160 21.45 2.63 48.9 17 3 investigate this query
Waqar Younis (PAK) 1990-1999 56 101 1863.1 375 5927 273 7/76 13/135 21.71 3.18 40.9 21 5 investigate this query
AA Donald (SA) 1992-1999 59 105 2166.0 544 6200 284 8/71 12/139 21.83 2.86 45.7 19 3 investigate this query
GD McGrath (AUS) 1993-1999 58 112 2326.0 642 6086 266 8/38 10/78 22.87 2.61 52.4 15 1 investigate this query
IR Bishop (WI) 1990-1998 39 69 1264.1 250 3539 145 6/40 8/57 24.40 2.79 52.3 5 0 investigate this query
SK Warne (AUS) 1992-1999 80 146 3762.4 1157 9009 351 8/71 12/128 25.66 2.39 64.3 16 4 investigate this query
CA Walsh (WI) 1990-1999 78 143 3013.1 624 7895 304 7/37 13/55 25.97 2.62 59.4 13 1 investigate this query

 

Check the number of wickets and compare those with bowlers of 80s. 

 

7. 2000s - Flat pancakes - easiest era for batting especially from 2003-2012. Except Steyn, this phase didn't produce any ATG bowler and conditions were big factor in that. Bowlers were probably good, but flat pitches meant they struggled most of the time. Result - lot of players averaging 50+. I remember reading an article in newspaper back in 2002 if 55 is new 50. You had Dravid, Sehwag, Sanga, Kallis, YK, Chanders, Ponting, Hayden, Mahela and many other making merry of this phase and scoring a lot. High scoring drawn games weren't unusual in this phase. Bowlers struggled to average below 25 during this time. Of course there was quality in batting, but it was boosted further by conditions.

 

Batting averages in from 2003-2012: 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
JH Kallis (ICC/SA) 2003-2012 93 162 22 8525 224 60.89 16995 50.16 33 31 9 958 68 investigate this query
BC Lara (ICC/WI) 2003-2006 41 75 2 4381 400* 60.01 6968 62.87 16 11 7 549 45 investigate this query
KC Sangakkara (SL) 2003-2012 89 154 13 8171 287 57.95 14990 54.50 26 32 8 999 27 investigate this query
Younis Khan (PAK) 2003-2012 53 95 9 4967 313 57.75 9254 53.67 15 17 10 558 23 investigate this query
S Chanderpaul (WI) 2003-2012 83 146 27 6798 203* 57.12 15235 44.62 21 33 9 707 30 investigate this query
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK) 2003-2010 48 87 7 4431 223 55.38 7876 56.25 14 17 5 559 32 investigate this query
RT Ponting (AUS) 2003-2012 105 188 17 9132 257 53.40 15392 59.32 27 45 11 1033 45 investigate this query
MJ Clarke (AUS) 2004-2012 88 146 15 6910 329* 52.74 12342 55.98 22 24 6 785 30 investigate this query
MEK Hussey (AUS) 2005-2012 78 135 15 6183 195 51.52 12343 50.09 19 29 12 683 39 investigate this query
R Dravid (ICC/INDIA) 2003-2012 95 168 19 7674 270 51.50 17480 43.90 22 35 6 946 15 investigate this query
V Sehwag (ICC/INDIA) 2003-2012 88 156 6 7687 319 51.24 9151 84.00 20 28 15 1085 81 investigate this query
HM Amla (SA) 2004-2012 65 114 9 5323 311* 50.69 10222 52.07 18 23 6 666 8 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 2003-2012 89 151 16 6834 248* 50.62 12841 53.22 20 31 4 845 29 investigate this query
DPMD Jayawardene (SL) 2003-2012 90 155 9 7323 374 50.15 14518 50.44 22 27 10 827 36 investigate this query
GC Smith (ICC/SA) 2003-2012 98 174 11 8114 277 49.77 13570 59.79 25 33 10 1020 23 investigate this query
ML Hayden (AUS) 2003-2009 66 122 10 5546 380 49.51 9141 60.67 18 19 7 663 46 investigate this query
KP Pietersen (ENG) 2005-2012 92 158 8 7414 227 49.42 11771 62.98 22 29 9 899 73 investigate this query
AN Cook (ENG) 2006-2012 87 154 10 7117 294 49.42 14940 47.63 23 29 5 815 10 investigate this query
AB de Villiers (SA) 2004-2012 80 135 15 5894 278* 49.11 10858 54.28 14 29 3 680 45 investigate this query
VVS Laxman (INDIA) 2003-2012 90 153 27 6094 200* 48.36 12355 49.32 13 41 8 762 3

 

 

For ex - bowling figures from 2003 - 2012

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) 2003-2010 55 102 2982.1 666 7899 363 8/46 12/82 21.76 2.64 49.2 31 11 investigate this query
GD McGrath (AUS) 2003-2007 33 66 1278.5 399 3130 141 8/24 9/68 22.19 2.44 54.4 6 0 investigate this query
DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2012 60 112 2096.2 418 7115 299 7/51 10/91 23.79 3.39 42.0 18 4 investigate this query
SK Warne (AUS) 2004-2007 38 74 1804.4 344 5371 217 6/46 12/246 24.75 2.97 49.8 14 4 investigate this query
SM Pollock (SA) 2003-2008 41 80 1575.5 448 4051 148 6/39 8/104 27.37 2.57 63.8 2 0 investigate this query
M Ntini (SA) 2003-2009 73 139 2615.3 525 8649 305 7/37 13/132 28.35 3.30 51.4 16 4 investigate this query
PM Siddle (AUS) 2008-2012 36 66 1299.2 334 3933 138 6/54 9/104 28.50 3.02 56.4 6 0

 

Steyn was only ATG bowler produced by this era.

 

8. 2010 - Intial years were still flat, but post 2012-13, teams saw retirement of their main pillers and while undergoing transformation phase, they tried to maximise home advantage by making bowling friendly pitches on consistent basis. This gave new wings to bowlers. Whole new crop of sub-25 averaging bowlers and 55 average which was norm in 2010s for great batsmen was pushed back to 50. ICC controlled chuckers and boards gave favorable home conditions - which meant classic swing and seam bowling, pace and bouce, classic off spin which was dying were back in the game. Evolution of T20s game limelight to leggies. 

 

Bowling since 2013

Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
DW Steyn (SA) 2013-2019 33 59 1005.0 242 2962 140 6/8 11/60 21.15 2.94 43.0 8 1 investigate this query
PJ Cummins (AUS) 2017-2020 29 55 1082.5 259 3004 136 6/23 10/62 22.08 2.77 47.7 4 1 investigate this query
K Rabada (SA) 2015-2020 43 78 1335.1 270 4523 197 7/112 13/144 22.95 3.38 40.6 9 4 investigate this query
JM Anderson (ENG) 2013-2020 75 142 2679.2 748 7020 299 7/42 10/45 23.47 2.62 53.7 16 2 investigate this query
R Ashwin (INDIA) 2013-2020 59 109 2600.1 562 7240 302 7/59 13/140 23.97 2.78 51.6 22 6 investigate this query
VD Philander (SA) 2013-2020 52 96 1483.0 416 3795 157 6/21 9/51 24.17 2.55 56.6 6 0 investigate this query
RA Jadeja (INDIA) 2013-2020 48 92 2082.0 510 5129 210 7/48 10/154 24.42 2.46 59.4 9 1 investigate this query
M Morkel (SA) 2013-2018 41 76 1252.2 317 3597 145 5/21 9/110 24.80 2.87 51.8 2 0 investigate this query

 

Batting since 2013

Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
SPD Smith (AUS) 2013-2020 68 121 15 6968 239 65.73 12612 55.24 26 27 4 772 40 investigate this query
KC Sangakkara (SL) 2013-2015 19 37 1 2355 319 65.41 4226 55.72 8 11 2 244 18 investigate this query
KS Williamson (NZ) 2013-2020 62 107 12 5429 242* 57.14 10015 54.20 18 27 4 604 13 investigate this query
V Kohli (INDIA) 2013-2020 72 120 8 6349 254* 56.68 10605 59.86 24 17 8 707 18 investigate this query
AB de Villiers (SA) 2013-2018 34 56 3 2871 164 54.16 5219 55.01 8 17 5 344 19 investigate this query
Younis Khan (PAK) 2013-2017 39 75 8 3534 218 52.74 6930 50.99 14 7 5 328 33 investigate this query
DA Warner (AUS) 2013-2020 70 131 5 6261 335* 49.69 8607 72.74 21 26 9 735 44

 

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On 7/23/2020 at 6:42 PM, zen said:

Good! So how do you define magic on field? To be fair to cricketers of all generations and teams, the magic on field is not going to be tied to your memory or some random match of the team you follow that you saw. Also most cricketers would have moments of "magic" so again is everyone great or are you suggesting that one with more such moments is great. If it is latter, you are delving into stats (subconsciously) .... or worse, promoting greatness based on limited information (based on factors such as what your old neighbor for example tells or fanboyism or even to the line of reasoning where my dog makes me most happy, therefore most magical and the greatest animal) and a copious amount of unknown unknowns :p:

 

This reply is also to @Gollum @coffee_rules @Trichromatic

 

I look at cricket differently. To me, sport is under the larger umbrella of entertainment. It has a certain feel good factor associated with it. Not very different from watching a movie, which is basically a lazy persons way of releasing serotonin into the system. Much easier than going to a gym.

 

Moments of magic are basically those instances from the game which bring back happy memories and which stay with you for your life. Let me give you some instances.

There is this story that many unrelated buzurgs have told me about Ajit Wadekar. He used to play every Sunday at Shivaji park even after he made it into the senior Indian team. And people used to line up to watch him play. If the crowds were to ask for a 6, he'd oblige and hit a six in the general direction of those who requested the 6. There was this time, when some "seth" was having tea by the Gymkhana balcony. The balcony is right next to the players pavilion and the "seth" apparently said some not so good things to Wadekar about his cricketing abilities. When Wadekar went to bat, he hit a six that broke the teapot. This is a moment of magic. Every person there would never forget that incident. It is going to be etched in the memory of every spectator there till they are called by their maker. This was some non competitive friendly match. But Wadekar did entertain.

 

From our times, Dhoni's six that won us the world cup, Malinga's last ball wicket to win :mi:  IPL 2019, Sachin hitting Shoaib and Waqar for sixes and fours in that WC chase, Srisanth's catch are all moments of magic. Even Ashwins superlative performance in the IPL semis against RCB. He bowled Gayle, He c&b ABDV in the same over.

 

And you are right, everyone is capable and has some moments of magic. They are all great.

 

Now that we are done with definitions; lets get to your question of allocating "greatness".

Comparison they say, is the thief of joy.

Cricket is a sport with far too many variables. Pitch, weather, format, era etc. No meaningful comparison is possible. I don't see any merit in comparing the purported greatness of Sachin vs Bradman vs Vivian Richards. It makes no sense and is just an imprecise mathematical prediction to compare what is otherwise incomparable.

 

I don't see the need to compare greats. Sachin is a national hero. He has served, he has bled for India. He has won us the world cup. He has entertained and has given us a lifetime of memories. Just because some vlookup function on excel says he scored 2.33 less runs on an average than Bradman on 4th day of tests with overcast conditions, doesn't change the fact that he will *always* be remembered fondly. And as a great.

 

Edited by Mariyam

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28 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

This reply is also to @Gollum @coffee_rules @Trichromatic

 

I look at cricket differently. To me, sport is under the larger umbrella of entertainment. It has a certain feel good factor associated with it. Not very different from watching a movie, which is basically a lazy persons way of releasing serotonin into the system. Much easier than going to a gym.

 

Moments of magic are basically those instances from the game which bring bang happy memories and which stay with you for your life. Let me give you some instances.

There is this story that many unrelated buzurgs have told me about Ajit Wadekar. He used to play every Sunday at Shivaji park even after he made it into the senior Indian team. And people used to line up to watch him play. If the crowds were to ask for a 6, he'd oblige and hit a six in the general direction of those who requested the 6. There was this time, when some "seth" was having tea by the Gymkhana balcony. The balcony is right next to the players pavilion and the "seth" apparently said some not so good things to Wadekar about his cricketing abilities. When Wadekar went to bat, he hit a six that broke the teapot. This is a moment of magic. Every person there would never forget that incident. It is going to be etched in the memory of every spectator there till they are called by their maker. This was some non competitive friendly match. But Wadekar did entertain.

 

From our times, Dhoni's six that won us the world cup, Malinga's last ball wicket to win :mi:  IPL 2019, Sachin hitting Shoaib and Waqar for sixes and fours in that WC chase, Srisanth's catch are all moments of magic. Even Ashwins superlative performance in the IPL semis against RCB. He bowled Gayle, He c&b ABDV in the same over.

 

And you are right, everyone is capable and has some moments of magic. They are all great.

 

Now that we are done with definitions; lets get to your question of allocating "greatness".

Comparison they say, is the thief of joy.

Cricket is a sport with far too many variables. Pitch, weather, format, era etc. No meaningful comparison is possible. I don't see any merit in comparing the purported greatness of Sachin vs Bradman vs Vivian Richards. It makes no sense and is just an imprecise mathematical prediction to compare what is otherwise incomparable.

 

I don't see the need to compare greats. Sachin is a national hero. He has served, he has bled for India. He has won us the world cup. He has entertained and has given us a lifetime of memories. Just because some vlookup function on excel says he scored 2.33 less runs on an average than Bradman on 4th day of tests with overcast conditions, doesn't change the fact that he will *always* be remembered fondly. And as a great.

 

While it may feel that statistical comparison is only objective way, bolded part is what newbies who learn to filter statsguru miss out.

 

Those are just numbers on surface and most of the variables are not taken into acccount.

 

For ex - does anyone has number how many runs KP has scored when degrees of swing is more than 5? No, no one does and that's why people rely on their observation, not on numbers.


Moreover, innings and performances are not judged by final numbers? Even methods using those numbers are ful of holes and assumptions which reflect lack of understanding of the game.

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2 hours ago, Mariyam said:

And you are right, everyone is capable and has some moments of magic. They are all great.

 

Now that we are done with definitions; lets get to your question of allocating "greatness".

Comparison they say, is the thief of joy.

Cricket is a sport with far too many variables. Pitch, weather, format, era etc. No meaningful comparison is possible. I don't see any merit in comparing the purported greatness of Sachin vs Bradman vs Vivian Richards. It makes no sense and is just an imprecise mathematical prediction to compare what is otherwise incomparable.

 

I don't see the need to compare greats. Sachin is a national hero. He has served, he has bled for India. He has won us the world cup. He has entertained and has given us a lifetime of memories. Just because some vlookup function on excel says he scored 2.33 less runs on an average than Bradman on 4th day of tests with overcast conditions, doesn't change the fact that he will *always* be remembered fondly. And as a great.

 

Note that everyone has a different goal including those who go around claiming things such as “Sachin is the greatest including by using/misusing stats”.  


People who love the game more than just a form of entertainment may want to know its history and who the top performers in the sport were/are. The answers cannot be found by simply looking at the players of our team who gave us joy. And if course no one can watch every game that has been played in the history of cricket. To look beyond our known knowns, we have to rely on other means. 


Every ball in cricket can different (And is the understood part - nothing is really apples to apples) therefore what people look for is a relatively large sample size on certain parameters where a player has encountered a variety of challenges that he is presented with. How ppl tackled these challenges (the challenges may not even be exactly the same is again understood) can be seen through stats. 
 

At times, It can even be like who is better at their hobby - Mariyam or Zen). Mariyam loves to write and everyone likes her writing (Say measured through likes/reviews/revenues for example). Zen likes to take pictures but not many like his pictures. So Mariyam is better in her hobby than Zen is in his :lol: .... Through stats, one can even compare the effectiveness of (may be even to get a rough idea) a batsman vs. a bowler by for e.g. looking at how good a batsman is in batting v how good a bowler is in bowling. 

At times, the goal can be to find the greatest, someone with perfect stats, most effective, and so on. Numbers are something most people can relate to and help to discover some common ground. 


PS I quickly wrote this on the phone so ignore grammar/spelling errors :p:

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Another piece of stats - In 90s, the major sides were - SA, Aus, Pak, WI and Ind. Below is the batting in MO:

 

View overall figures [change view]
Opposition team Australia remove Australia from query or India remove India from query or Pakistan remove Pakistan from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query or West Indies remove West Indies from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999 remove between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999 from query
Batting position between 4 and 7 remove between 4 and 7 from query
Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000 remove runs scored greater than or equal to 1000 from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 27 of 27   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
RT Ponting (AUS) 1997-1999 14 24 3 1071 197 51.00 4 4 3 investigate this query
BC Lara (WI) 1990-1999 27 46 1 2255 277 50.11 6 13 1 investigate this query
SR Waugh (AUS) 1990-1999 45 72 8 3158 200 49.34 8 16 6 investigate this query
Saleem Malik (PAK) 1990-1999 15 28 2 1272 237 48.92 3 5 3 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 1991-1999 32 56 3 2533 179 47.79 9 10 5 investigate this query
JC Adams (WI) 1992-1999 20 35 9 1226 174* 47.15 2 6 4 investigate this query
A Flower (ZIM) 1992-1999 19 34 7 1265 156 46.85 3 7 3 investigate this query
PA de Silva (SL) 1990-1999 40 66 6 2767 148 46.11 9 12 3 investigate this query
RA Smith (ENG) 1990-1996 37 63 12 2343 175 45.94 6 14 3 investigate this query
HP Tillakaratne (SL) 1990-1999 30 48 8 1683 119 42.07 3 11 4 investigate this query
ME Waugh (AUS) 1991-1999 57 95 7 3660 153* 41.59 11 19 10 investigate this query
GP Thorpe (ENG) 1993-1998 47 86 10 3117 138 41.01 4 23 7 investigate this query
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK) 1993-1999 24 38 2 1463 177 40.63 3 9 3 investigate this query
SP Fleming (NZ) 1994-1999 20 33 2 1250 92* 40.32 0 11 4 investigate this query
AR Border (AUS) 1990-1994 24 40 7 1252 110 37.93 1 8 5 investigate this query
JN Rhodes (SA) 1992-1999 20 34 4 1119 103* 37.30 1 8 1 investigate this query
AJ Stewart (ENG) 1990-1999 28 52 5 1634 164 34.76 1 11 3 investigate this query
M Azharuddin (INDIA) 1991-1999 30 50 4 1591 163* 34.58 5 5 1 investigate this query
GA Hick (ENG) 1991-1999 31 51 4 1625 178 34.57 3 8 1 investigate this query
CL Hooper (WI) 1990-1999 42 74 6 2337 178* 34.36 5 9 7 investigate this query
KR Rutherford (NZ) 1990-1995 23 41 2 1277 102 32.74 1 11 4 investigate this query
MR Ramprakash (ENG) 1991-1999 26 48 5 1393 154 32.39 1 8 6 investigate this query
N Hussain (ENG) 1990-1998 21 36 3 1067 207 32.33 3 3 5 investigate this query
A Ranatunga (SL) 1990-1999 39 64 5 1876 131 31.79 2 11 8 investigate this query
WJ Cronje (SA) 1992-1999 25 45 3 1302 88 31.00 0 10 3 investigate this query
DJ Cullinan (SA) 1993-1999 23 41 4 1140 168 30.81 3 3 6 investigate this query

 

 

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These observations are more profound than StatsGuru. He says Sachin should bat like Sehwag after a 100, while Sehwag should have batter like Sachin till he reached 30s. But unlike Sachin, didn't have the luxury of knowing there is a fab4 MO coming after him. :giggle: so he could go all out.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/29557357/kapil-dev-sachin-tendulkar-never-became-ruthless-batsman

 

Kapil Dev: 'Sachin Tendulkar never became a ruthless batsman'

Quote

A comparison between Sachin Tendulkar and Virender Sehwag: 'To Sachin, I used to say, "You must watch Sehwag"'
"Sachin had so much talent, we hadn't seen it in anyone. He was born in an era where he knew how to score hundreds but he never became a ruthless batsman. Sachin had everything in cricket. He knew how to score hundreds but didn't know how to convert those hundreds into double-hundreds and triple-hundreds. Sachin had the talent to make at least five triple-centuries and another 10 double-hundreds because he could hit fast bowlers and spinners for a six or a four every over. However, he got caught up in the Mumbai cricket [mindset]: when you score a hundred, make a line and start from zero again. And that's where I said no, you are such a ruthless cricketer, be like Virender Sehwag.

"I used to tell Sehwag to be like Sachin: you have so many shots in your armoury that if you wait for 30-odd minutes, you will get to a hundred. To Sachin, I used to say, 'You must watch Virender Sehwag', who, upon reaching a ton would aim for at least one boundary an over if not two. So in the next 20 overs, he was close to his double-hundred. That was the difference. At times, you don't have people around you to point things out to you and, at times, you are not aware of your own strength. Sachin's strength was par excellence and incomparable, but after reaching a century, he would often take a single and get off strike."

That line about Mumbai cricket is from the likes of Gavaskar. They are obsessed with 100s and 200s! 

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@Mariyam It's not like we don't enjoy the moments of magic. We live and aspire to see individual brilliances and relish it, especially if it comes from your favorite player or cry if it comes from your least favorite player (like Barbie 500). It is not a binary that if we are discussing stats and comparing ATGness, it doesn't mean we don't enjoy the game in the moment. After the game is over, we want to relive the performances and look back how others didn't show the same brilliance in similar match conditions and gloat. It's another aspect about how we enjoy the sport.  

 

We all know about 175 from Kapil Dev and what a momentous situation it came in and we appreciate. But after that, if we check if he had scored any other century in ODIs, you will not find. That is the only 100 he has scored in ODIs. Not to take away his greatness, but something to ponder and wonder. There were not many similar situations where our top order collapsed and he had to bat in as early as in the 8th over. Also, that game was for 60 overs, which was reduced to 50 overs after the WC. So, he had like 50 overs to play out which he did .  Such analysis will give a different aspect of the sport, when we go above the game and look at a span of time. 

 

One thing I hate to do, is analyze a series and say if you take out one brilliant innings, he had an ordinary series. Well, you can't. There is no way to analyze a performance, by taking out good brilliant innings, just to fit in your theory. I have done that too, but I hate it.

 

Edited by coffee_rules

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5 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Yeh kya chutiyapa hain. That is why it is wrong to compare players across generations. He is bowling every ball the same place and all are getting out in the same way

 

 

That is good bowling! .... Those are wkts taken highlights, which does not take into consideration, the pressure he must have created .... In most such clips including of quick bowlers, you will find similar ways where batsmen get out by nicking the ball, getting out hoolking, lbws, and so on 

 

Below is Hirwani's 16 wkts for e.g. 

 

 

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