Any player in Cricket can be picked out with Statistical holes.

[Gollum]

GC against India's spin quartet would have been interesting. Doug Walters faced a torrid time against Bedi in the 69-70 series while Ian struggled against Prasanna. Now both those legends dominated Lance Gibbs in WI, both terrific against spin. Quartet for a 7-8 years period was a big challenge for the best batsmen. 

 

Greg Chappell's resume is incomplete, a great player indeed (esp if you add WSC stats) but there is a reason he will be behind King Viv in my book. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Gollum

[zen]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

I remember Amre and Kapil’s 100’s in SA but forgot about Sachin getting one in 1992 itself. True G O A T

 

Thank you @zen

Do you mean GOAT just like Amre and Kapil? 

Edited July 22, 2020 by zen

[zen]

Revisited Chappell's numbers .... At the basic level, those are among the best numbers ..... An avg of less than 50 against only one country, which is acceptable! Overall pretty solid relatively. 

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0	4s	6s
overall	1970-1984	87	151	19	7110	247*	53.86	24	31	12	755	16	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0	4s	6s
v England	1970-1983	35	65	8	2619	144	45.94	9	12	4	291	4
v India	1981-1981	3	5	0	368	204	73.60	1	2	1	44	0
v New Zealand	1973-1982	14	22	3	1076	247*	56.63	3	3	3	129	5
v Pakistan	1972-1984	17	27	2	1581	235	63.24	6	6	1	142	3
v Sri Lanka	1983-1983	1	1	0	66	66	66.00	0	1	0	7	0
v West Indies	1973-1982	17	31	6	1400	182*	56.00	5	7	3	142	4

 

It is good to know Lillee and Chappell liked to smash Pak

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by zen

[zen]

I looked at Aus in India in 70s and 80s. They only made 2 trips - 1 in each decade:

 

• 1979: Only trip during Chappell's tenure. Appears as if they sent a B team with key players resting (or playing the World Series Cricket). A parallel could be current key Indian players sitting out of some tours. 
• 1986: This was after Chappell retired. This series involved that tied test. And when Aus was in rebuilding phase. 

 

The above shows a lack of intensity in the Ind-Aus rivalry in that period. Reflecting back, I can understand key Aus players skipping the tour to India for a series with low intensity taking place one a decade, and maybe the allure of World Series Cricket. 

 

I think the Ind vs. Aus intensity picked up post 1998 once the Aus-WI rivalry began to fade away. Post 1998, Aus has been making 3 trips per decade on an average to India (they last did that in the 60s). Also the cricket b/w the two has been interesting! 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[coffee_rules]

^^ What I read was India was supposed to travel after Aus visited India in 1969-70 , India won in Eng next year in Wi and Eng, so they were more lucrative. India was supposed to travel in 1975, but Aus picked WI over India. 1979 , packer series was almost over, but Aus toured India mins GC, DL etc. So can’t blame him. But he was not meant to play. India played more of Eng, WI and Pak in those times

[zen]

14 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

^^ What I read was India was supposed to travel after Aus visited India in 1969-70 , India won in Eng next year in Wi and Eng, so they were more lucrative. India was supposed to travel in 1975, but Aus picked WI over India. 1979 , packer series was almost over, but Aus toured India mins GC, DL etc. So can’t blame him. But he was not meant to play. India played more of Eng, WI and Pak in those times

To be fair to Chappell and Lillee, Aus only toured India once during their careers, so we should stop being harsh on them for not touring India as if Aus used to tour frequently and they used to skip all those tours. It is not a big deal  

Both these players have served India - one as the coach (bringing some innovation including questioning superstardom) and the other through MRF pace foundation. 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[coffee_rules]

Take up Barrington and Sangakarra. They have perfect 58xx averages to debug

[NameGoesHere]

Love the thread title. 

 

Imagine going up to SRT, Lara, Ponting and that other ATG, Shahid Afridi, with this line:

 

"Mr SRT/Lara/Ponting/ Afridi,  how are you today?  I'm from ICF, and I've got excel and statsguru tools to, erm, expose your holes....."

[zen]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Take up Barrington and Sangakarra. They have perfect 58xx averages to debug

If we make a basic qualification of having an avg of 50 or more vs. 80% of opposition against whom a batsman played at least 3 test matches: 

 

Barrington qualifies if we take 49.45 as 50. If not, he does not qualify as technically 49.45 = 49

 

areer averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
overall	1955-1968	82	131	15	6806	256	58.67	20	35	5	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
v Australia	1961-1968	23	39	6	2111	256	63.96	5	13	1
v India	1959-1967	14	21	3	1355	172	75.27	3	9	0
v New Zealand	1963-1965	5	6	0	594	163	99.00	3	1	0
v Pakistan	1961-1967	9	12	3	715	148	79.44	4	2	1
v South Africa	1955-1965	14	23	3	989	148*	49.45	2	6	1
v West Indies	1960-1968	17	30	0	1042	143	34.73	3	4	2

 

^ 4/6 = 67% .... or 5/6 = 83% (one avg of 49.45)

 

 

Sangakkara does not qualify

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
overall	2000-2015	134	233	17	12400	319	57.40	22882	54.19	38	52	11	1491	51	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	2004-2012	11	21	1	878	192	43.90	1809	48.53	1	7	1	110	2
v Bangladesh	2001-2014	15	21	2	1816	319	95.57	3042	59.69	7	7	1	201	16
v England	2001-2014	22	40	1	1568	152	40.20	3313	47.32	3	9	3	200	1
v India	2001-2015	17	28	2	1352	219	52.00	2633	51.34	5	2	0	162	3
v New Zealand	2003-2015	12	21	3	887	203	49.27	1477	60.05	4	2	1	117	6
v Pakistan	2002-2015	23	45	6	2911	230	74.64	5331	54.60	10	12	2	307	14
v South Africa	2000-2014	17	32	0	1534	287	47.93	2714	56.52	3	7	2	208	4
v West Indies	2001-2010	12	19	2	918	157*	54.00	1818	50.49	3	5	1	110	1
v Zimbabwe	2001-2004	5	6	0	536	270	89.33	745	71.94	2	1	0	76	4

 

^ 5/9 = 56% .... or 6/9 = 67% (one avg of 49.27)

 

 

So far qualified:

1. Bradman = 100%

2. G Chappell = 80%

 

Conditional:

1. Barrington 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[zen]

Similarly for bowlers - a basic qualification of a bowling average of 25 or less vs. 80% of opposition against whom a bowler has played at least 3 test matches. 

 

Qualified: 

 

Malcolm Marshall

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	1978-1991	81	151	2930.4	614	7876	376	7/22	11/89	20.94	2.68	46.7	22	4	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	1984-1991	19	36	722.3	136	1959	87	5/29	10/107	22.51	2.71	49.8	7	1
v England	1980-1991	26	50	965.0	232	2436	127	7/22	10/92	19.18	2.52	45.5	6	1
v India	1978-1989	17	30	584.3	128	1671	76	6/37	11/89	21.98	2.85	46.1	6	1
v New Zealand	1985-1987	7	12	289.1	51	775	36	7/80	11/120	21.52	2.68	48.1	1	1
v Pakistan	1980-1990	12	23	369.3	67	1035	50	5/33	9/144	20.70	2.80	44.3	2	0

 

5/5 = 100% 

 

 

Richard Hadlee

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	1973-1990	86	150	21918	9611	431	9/52	15/123	22.29	2.63	50.8	36	9	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	1973-1990	23	41	6099	2674	130	9/52	15/123	20.56	2.63	46.9	14	3
v England	1973-1990	21	35	5853	2399	97	6/26	10/100	24.73	2.45	60.3	8	2
v India	1976-1990	14	24	3106	1493	65	7/23	11/58	22.96	2.88	47.7	4	2
v Pakistan	1973-1989	12	20	2949	1448	51	6/51	8/110	28.39	2.94	57.8	4	0
v Sri Lanka	1983-1987	6	11	1405	473	37	5/29	10/102	12.78	2.01	37.9	2	1
v West Indies	1980-1987	10	19	2506	1124	51	6/50	11/102	22.03	2.69	49.1	4	1

 

5/6 = 83% 

 

 

[zen]

Allan Donald qualifies:

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	1992-2002	72	129	2586.3	661	7344	330	8/71	12/139	22.25	2.83	47.0	20	3	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	1993-2002	14	24	544.2	115	1647	53	6/59	9/133	31.07	3.02	61.6	2	0
v England	1994-2000	17	30	652.0	170	1982	86	6/53	11/127	23.04	3.03	45.4	9	1
v India	1992-2000	11	20	415.4	121	987	57	7/84	12/139	17.31	2.37	43.7	3	1
v New Zealand	1995-2000	5	9	177.0	56	443	21	4/69	6/112	21.09	2.50	50.5	0	0
v Pakistan	1995-1998	6	11	180.0	32	604	27	5/79	8/74	22.37	3.35	40.0	1	0
v Sri Lanka	1993-2001	6	11	206.0	58	556	29	5/54	8/127	19.17	2.69	42.6	2	0
v West Indies	1992-2001	10	18	309.2	76	894	43	5/49	7/82	20.79	2.89	43.1	2	0
v Zimbabwe	1995-1999	3	6	102.1	33	231	14	8/71	11/113	16.50	2.26	43.7	1	1

 

7/8 = 88% 

 

[zen]

Qualified so far

 

Batsmen

• Bradman
• G Chappell

 

Bowlers

• Marshall
• Donald
• Hadlee 

 

[Trichromatic]

2 hours ago, zen said:

To be fair to Chappell and Lillee, Aus only toured India once during their careers, so we should stop being harsh on them for not touring India as if Aus used to tour frequently and they used to skip all those tours. It is not a big deal  

Both these players have served India - one as the coach (bringing some innovation including questioning superstardom) and the other through MRF pace foundation. 

 

If we are questioning whether player toured a certain country or not, then can we question that Bradman didn't face fast bowlers in his career and his numbers are mostly against what we would call slow-medium pacers today?

[zen]

12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

If we are questioning whether player toured a certain country or not, then can we question that Bradman didn't face fast bowlers in his career and his numbers are mostly against what we would call slow-medium pacers today?

We are not anymore. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[Mariyam]

6 hours ago, NameGoesHere said:

Love the thread title. 

 

Imagine going up to SRT, Lara, Ponting and that other ATG, Shahid Afridi, with this line:

 

"Mr SRT/Lara/Ponting/ Afridi,  how are you today?  I'm from ICF, and I've got excel and statsguru tools to, erm, expose your holes....."

I would give you a 100 upvotes for this comment if the site allowed me to.

All this nerd talk is very tiresome. The very idea of using statistics/excel/graphs to determine the purported greatness of a cricketer is flawed.

Greatness is measured by moments of magic on the field and by nothing else.

[kohli]

5 hours ago, zen said:

Allan Donald qualifies:

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	1992-2002	72	129	2586.3	661	7344	330	8/71	12/139	22.25	2.83	47.0	20	3	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	1993-2002	14	24	544.2	115	1647	53	6/59	9/133	31.07	3.02	61.6	2	0
v England	1994-2000	17	30	652.0	170	1982	86	6/53	11/127	23.04	3.03	45.4	9	1
v India	1992-2000	11	20	415.4	121	987	57	7/84	12/139	17.31	2.37	43.7	3	1
v New Zealand	1995-2000	5	9	177.0	56	443	21	4/69	6/112	21.09	2.50	50.5	0	0
v Pakistan	1995-1998	6	11	180.0	32	604	27	5/79	8/74	22.37	3.35	40.0	1	0
v Sri Lanka	1993-2001	6	11	206.0	58	556	29	5/54	8/127	19.17	2.69	42.6	2	0
v West Indies	1992-2001	10	18	309.2	76	894	43	5/49	7/82	20.79	2.89	43.1	2	0
v Zimbabwe	1995-1999	3	6	102.1	33	231	14	8/71	11/113	16.50	2.26	43.7	1	1

 

7/8 = 88% 

 

Can you check mcgrath record 

[Jimmy Cliff]

The chink in Bradman's armour isn't his performance in the Bodyline series but his record on the so-called "sticky dogs". His average goes down to 20 on these wickets.

 

MATCHES	INNINGS	RUNS	NO	AVERAGE	HS	100	50	0
11	15	284	1	20.29	82	0	1	4
41	65	6712	9	119.90	334	29	12	3

 

The Curious Case of the Don and the Sticky Wicket

[zen]

3 hours ago, kohli said:

Can you check mcgrath record 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	1993-2007	124	243	4874.4	1470	12186	563	8/24	10/27	21.64	2.49	51.9	29	3	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Bangladesh	2003-2003	2	4	55.1	17	124	5	3/20	4/45	24.80	2.24	66.2	0	0
v England	1994-2007	30	60	1213.2	331	3286	157	8/38	9/82	20.92	2.70	46.3	10	0
v ICC World XI	2005-2005	1	2	18.0	7	42	3	2/34	3/42	14.00	2.33	36.0	0	0
v India	1996-2004	11	22	426.2	157	951	51	5/48	10/103	18.64	2.23	50.1	2	1
v New Zealand	1993-2005	14	27	571.1	172	1444	57	6/115	7/89	25.33	2.52	60.1	2	0
v Pakistan	1994-2005	17	33	639.1	173	1736	80	8/24	9/68	21.70	2.71	47.9	3	0
v South Africa	1994-2006	17	32	680.2	223	1558	57	6/86	8/49	27.33	2.29	71.6	2	0
v Sri Lanka	1995-2004	8	15	304.4	84	823	37	5/37	7/61	22.24	2.70	49.4	2	0
v West Indies	1995-2005	23	46	912.3	287	2132	110	6/17	10/27	19.38	2.33	49.7	8	2
v Zimbabwe	1999-1999	1	2	54.0	19	90	6	3/44	6/90	15.00	1.66	54.0	0	0

 

5/7 = 71% .... if we round off 25.33 vs NZ to 25, then 6/7 = 86% so a conditional qualification based on rounding. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[Gollum]

30 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

The chink in Bradman's armour isn't his performance in the Bodyline series but his record on the so-called "sticky dogs". His average goes down to 20 on these wickets.

 

MATCHES	INNINGS	RUNS	NO	AVERAGE	HS	100	50	0
11	15	284	1	20.29	82	0	1	4
41	65	6712	9	119.90	334	29	12	3

 

The Curious Case of the Don and the Sticky Wicket

Valid point. 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Valid point. 

I do not think it is a chink as there are no more sticky wickets and the data itself is unverified - "By my reckoning there were fifteen of Bradman’s Test innings which we can consider rain-affected and treat them separately – here are the adjusted averages:-"