zen Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Nobody is asking for parties to be banned for having an opinion on what Indian culture should be. But when those 'should be's are religion driven, then separation of religion and government does become an issue.A party can and should be banned if they wish to form a position that 'Indian laws need to be consistent with this or that religious book' because that is, explicitly,mixing religion and politics. Regardless what cannot be argued against, is that parties should be banned if illegal actions are taken under the name of the party, by party members and party fails to respond. Can we agree on that ? Because that is directly aiding and abetting. To use your example on criminal and family - no, family is not responsible- unless family is sheltering/protecting the criminal and withholding information that proves criminality. That is called 'aiding and abetting' and hell yes, that is a crime. When a party has its members officially, under its banner, commit crime and then fails to respond negatively against said perpetrators of its own accord, the party becomes just as guilty of being aiding and abetting crime. Do you agree with that and if not, why ? Yep. And we can acknowledge that British exploited local culture's warts and ills to manufacture a superior narrative and still acknowledge that it WAS/IS an ill that we need to get rid of. Just because the colonialists poked fun at us for idiotic practices and called themselves superior race, now that we don't think they are superior race, doesn't mean we accept our idiotic practices either. In Ind, which is the birth place of various religions, it is, at times, hard to distinguish religion from culture. So what some folks may interpret some things as religious, some may interpret those as cultural Additionally, in many countries parties are based on religious lines. Google "Christian Democratic" and you will see in how many such parties exist in various countries. So again the issues you are raising are non-issues. In Ind, there are many parties devoted to many religions . My example on family clearly stated that "once the law has served its cause" ..... to show that family was involved in the theft too, "legal" evidence is needed. And even if a bunch of members are involved, it does not indicate that the entire family was involved To reiterate, it is not just up to you and me to decide what constitues as laughable in a culture. For e.g. I consider "kurta pajama", "nehru jacket", "dhoti", "pathani" etc to be respectful Ind cultural dresses. Just because British wear suits, it does would not make that more respectable than thosevInd dresses Apart from recycling, if you have anything additional and interesting to add, let me know! Edited February 20, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, zen said: In Ind, which is the birth place of various religions, it is, at times, hard to distinguish religion from culture. So what some folks may interpret some things as religious, some may interpret those as cultural If its based in a religion explicitly, it is religious. Pretty straightforward. Quote My example on family clearly stated that "once the law has served its cause" ..... to show that family was involved in the theft too, "legal" evidence is needed. And even if a bunch of members are involved, it does not indicate that the entire family was involved Look up aiding and abetting. Accessory to a crime and aiding and abetting are not necessarily the same thing but both are criminal charges when pertaining to criminal acts. If you know i committed a crime and sheltered me, that is a crime. These folks are not ejected from Shiv Sena. And Shiv Sena is aware this has happened under their name. Failure to respond, makes the party guilty by 'aiding and abetting'. If a bunch of people of your family are involved and i can prove you knew about it but didn't do ****, that makes you guilty of aiding and abetting a crime. True or false ? I asked you a specific question, which you dodged, so i will ask again: When a party has its members officially, under its banner, commit crime and then fails to respond negatively against said perpetrators of its own accord, the party becomes just as guilty of being aiding and abetting crime. Do you agree with that and if not, why ? Edited February 20, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: If its based in a religion explicitly, it is religious. Pretty straightforward. Are you implying that concepts such as officially going out on a date at a relatively young age being unacceptable is a religious concept? I find such things being unacceptable irrespective of religion. I don't see a Hindu, Sikh, Muslim or whatever parents giving tips to their daughters on dating when in high-school. In fact, only time many parents would want to see their daughter with someone is when she is officially sent off with her husband .... Ind does not have a concept where for e.g. daughters move out of the house once they reach a certain age Quote Look up aiding and abetting. Accessory to a crime and aiding and abetting are not necessarily the same thing but both are criminal charges when pertaining to criminal acts. If you know i committed a crime and sheltered me, that is a crime. These folks are not ejected from Shiv Sena. And Shiv Sena is aware this has happened under their name. Failure to respond, makes the party guilty by 'aiding and abetting'. If a bunch of people of your family are involved and i can prove you knew about it but didn't do ****, that makes you guilty of aiding and abetting a crime. True or false ? a) When a thief has served its sentence (law has taken its course), its family would accept him. It is up to the court to punish .... Once the person redeems himself, it should not matter if the party accepts him (unless the crime is extremely horrible such as rape, murder, etc. ) b) The crime has to be proven "legally" c) There are varying degrees of "aiding and abetting". It is based on context and crime. Even 2 ppl involved in a murder can get varying sentence depending up on .... Quote I asked you a specific question, which you dodged, so i will ask again: When a party has its members officially, under its banner, commit crime and then fails to respond negatively against said perpetrators of its own accord, the party becomes just as guilty of being aiding and abetting crime. Do you agree with that and if not, why ? Based on the comments that I have made, it should be obvious that I do not agree which such generalizations. Why? The answer is already out there if you actually read and understand my posts! .... "aiding and abetting" has several degrees to it (as explained multiple times) If a couple parks their car near your house and starts getting involved in indecent act inside the car and making loud noises, would you not ask them to move? The key point here is not the opinion, but the manner in which the opinion is expressed And your point on banning a party is hilarious as the party can simply form another party with a different name. Which is one of the reasons why I wrote about not solving for the symptoms, but the root causes So again, do you have anything meaningful or interesting to say? Edited February 20, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gattaca Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) Lol so because of few you ban that organization. Catch the culprits and punish them. This is like let's ban a religion because they have bad guys. I guess Buddhists/atheists have less tolerance. Edited February 20, 2017 by gattaca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vayuu1 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 They are also terrorists. It is standard tactic of terrorist sympathizers- be it hinduvta, islamist, christian or commie- to promptly point out how there are other evil people out there who are not aligned with them. As if anyone said hinduvta jaahils are the ONLY problem... They are all in the same boat. Hinduvta, Islamism, evangelists, maoists- they are all batting for the same side- the side against freedom, equality, rights & progress for all. They are not killing anyone, I agree they overdo things quite a bit, but do you know what is a meaning of hindutva, hindutva means sarva hitaya, sarva sukhaya,they don't convert people, yes they thrash people, but what exactly are the educated people are doing ,they are even more of a nuisance than these jaahils, coz all they are doing is taking March, god knows when the December is gonna come, also they are busy in their luxurious lives, so it's easy to criticize. Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Troll Alert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh bling Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Quote Protect us from cow vigilante groups, trade hit: Punjab soap industry to police http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/protect-us-from-cow-vigilante-groups-trade-hit-punjab-soap-industry-to-police/ The worst thing is these groups have started attacking industry of India. Dairy farming , buffalo meat , leather and now Soap . Cattle , cows are such an important part of Rural life but now you cannot trade them freely as some Gau rakshaks will say that they are going for slaughter and attack you. I don't understand how BJP will create jobs if this type of attacks will not be stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 5 hours ago, zen said: Are you implying that concepts such as officially going out on a date at a relatively young age being unacceptable is a religious concept? I find such things being unacceptable irrespective of religion. I don't see a Hindu, Sikh, Muslim or whatever parents giving tips to their daughters on dating when in high-school. In fact, only time many parents would want to see their daughter with someone is when she is officially sent off with her husband .... Ind does not have a concept where for e.g. daughters move out of the house once they reach a certain age Don't make strawman arguments. I never gave this specific example, I categorically said when political parties want to make laws SPECIFICALLY regarding religion, it is crossing the separation of church and state. A Hindu example would be if there was a party that wanted to declare you an outcast for not observing the 'five rules' prescribed in Manusmriti. That, is not 'cultural values', thats clearly trying to make laws on the basis of religion. Quote a) When a thief has served its sentence (law has taken its course), its family would accept him. It is up to the court to punish .... Once the person redeems himself, it should not matter if the party accepts him (unless the crime is extremely horrible such as rape, murder, etc. ) b) The crime has to be proven "legally" c) There are varying degrees of "aiding and abetting". It is based on context and crime. Even 2 ppl involved in a murder can get varying sentence depending up on .... Again, stop saying nonsensical things. I asked you a specific question. So i will ask again: When a party has its members officially, under its banner, commit crime and then fails to respond negatively against said perpetrators of its own accord, the party becomes just as guilty of being aiding and abetting crime. Do you agree with that and if not, why ? What is implied in my question, is that the court process has satisfactorily found the party is guilty of aiding and abetting as well as the perpetrators are guilty. When someone asks 'if someone kills a person, should they go to jail', the answer is NOT 'if they can prove the crime, you see there are many ways to prove the crime' - those are IMPLICIT in the question. If there is no proof, then there is no crime and if someone has been found guilty, there is proof. So quit beating around the bush and tell us, if the party bears responsibility for its members doing things OFFICIALLY under its name or not and if not, why. Quote If a couple parks their car near your house and starts getting involved in indecent act inside the car and making loud noises, would you not ask them to move? 'Asking them' and assaulting them are two very different things. See, its because of people like YOU that India is in the state it is, since people like YOU have no regard for enforcing the law and having a legal society. And then get bent out of shape when societies that are superior functioning make fun of us. Quote And your point on banning a party is hilarious as the party can simply form another party with a different name. Which is one of the reasons why I wrote about not solving for the symptoms, but the root causes It takes 2 minutes to legally ban a party and freezing their assets. It takes a lot more money and time to set up a party. So logistically speaking, the 'switch names and re-form' is a losing proposition for parties that are guilty of aiding and abetting crime, because they will ALWAYS end up behind in the money and time game against authorities banning them. now, man up and answer the question that has been posed, instead of obfuscating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 hour ago, vayuu1 said: They are not killing anyone, I agree they overdo things quite a bit, but do you know what is a meaning of hindutva, hindutva means sarva hitaya, sarva sukhaya,they don't convert people, yes they thrash people, but what exactly are the educated people are doing ,they are even more of a nuisance than these jaahils, coz all they are doing is taking March, god knows when the December is gonna come, also they are busy in their luxurious lives, so it's easy to criticize. Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk So because they are not killing anyone, its ok ? What type of jaahils are filling up in India today, that they excuse criminal behaviour by saying 'no one is dying, its ok' ? When you thrash a person, its a crime. People in civilized societies go to jail for that. Perhaps India should stop whining about the crimes in their society and either put up with it quietly or ADVOCATE LEGAL ACTION against people who commit crime. not excuse them like you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 3 hours ago, gattaca said: Lol so because of few you ban that organization. Catch the culprits and punish them. This is like let's ban a religion because they have bad guys. I guess Buddhists/atheists have less tolerance. When the 'few' do it in name of the organization, as evidenced in the video above, are members of the organization and the organization takes no action, then the organization is guilty of abetting the crime. And i dunno about Buddhists, but yes, Atheists do have less tolerance towards crime. Which is why countries with high levels of atheism have very low levels of crime and high levels of enforcement of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Oh and i will save people the trouble for a lot of handwringing : Don't say what about some 'Gandus who are muslim/commie/other religion', arrest people who break such laws and sanction parties for aiding and abetting them, if it refuses to take action in expelling or reporting the members or fully cooperating with the proceedings. This needs to happen to all parties, all over India, if they support breaking the law. C'mon guys, this should not be such a hard-sell to aspiring Indian public. Ask yourself, who gains, if India starts 'staunch' enforcement of justice. This does not mean do a few cases in random and give humongous punishment to 'scare the population & criminals from time to time'. This means, every single time you break the law, whatever the prescribed justice-money or jail or community service or house arrest-whatever- will be applied to you almost every single time. You will have to do something extraordinary to not get investigated or get off scot free. And this is not that hard to do. If India can spend an extra billion or two every year to acquire toys for our military- think what can happen. (yes, toys. I get it, India has enemies. But India has not faced realistically a massive invasionary threat in 50+ years and we *CAN* afford to delay our purchases for a couple of years and spend that money on justice system.) More money spent on police- in their training, in their equipment and in their salaries, increasing the law department in Indian universities + opening more courthouses will massively speed up the process of processing cases. And lastly, the other major component of a strong legal system- political parties and politicians *CANNOT* get away with breaking the law, in overwhelming majority of cases, without atleast, losing power. In Canada or Britain,for the last 30-40 years running- the overwhelming majority of politicians & political parties found to be corrupt are, at the very least, forced to fold/quit. What is wrong with that ? We can't just have a government system, where party gets to act like a mafia - bosses give orders in private, 'foot-soldiers go do goonda-gardi', most of the time get away with it but when public gets really mad/they * up bad, the 'foot soldiers go to jail' and their families are taken care of, while the Party remains scot-free. This is our system, i know, but this *HAS* to change. Because without that, a party can come up with extremist ideas that are illegal, propagate it in the 'mafiosi style' and become untouchable to society. Which does not benefit society. WHY, oh why, would you guys not want this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) @Muloghonto my friend, the more you post, more comical your points get. For the sake of comedy: Quote Don't make strawman arguments. I never gave this specific example, I categorically said when political parties want to make laws SPECIFICALLY regarding religion, it is crossing the separation of church and state. A Hindu example would be if there was a party that wanted to declare you an outcast for not observing the 'five rules' prescribed in Manusmriti. That, is not 'cultural values', thats clearly trying to make laws on the basis of religion. Please refer to your original post where you have posted videos of "alleged" Shiv Sena and BD activists creating a situation on Valentines Day (I guess you would know what this day is for) and couple strolling near the Sabarmati respectively. Which I would connect to the broader topic of "allowing relatively young girls to date and show affection in public" which may not align with Ind culture Your points only highlights your lack of understanding about the differences b/w Indian culture and religion and/or your confusion about the subject Quote Again, stop saying nonsensical things. I asked you a specific question. So i will ask again: When a party has its members officially, under its banner, commit crime and then fails to respond negatively against said perpetrators of its own accord, the party becomes just as guilty of being aiding and abetting crime. Do you agree with that and if not, why ? What is implied in my question, is that the court process has satisfactorily found the party is guilty of aiding and abetting as well as the perpetrators are guilty. When someone asks 'if someone kills a person, should they go to jail', the answer is NOT 'if they can prove the crime, you see there are many ways to prove the crime' - those are IMPLICIT in the question. If there is no proof, then there is no crime and if someone has been found guilty, there is proof. So quit beating around the bush and tell us, if the party bears responsibility for its members doing things OFFICIALLY under its name or not and if not, why. I thought it is understood that in the "context" of the discussion the answer is no. And I am sure you know that the laws gives varying degrees of punishment depending up on the involvement even to those accused of doing the same crime so there is no generalization here like you would like to believe. By the same token, every party has members who engage in criminal conduct. For e.g. corruption is a crime too and usually reaches the highest ranking in the party. So let me turn around and ask you - should Congress be banned because of corruption which is a crime? If your point is that parties should be banned because of their members' criminal activities, then the term "criminal" has a much broader application than the religious theme that you have hopped on Quote Asking them' and assaulting them are two very different things. See, its because of people like YOU that India is in the state it is, since people like YOU have no regard for enforcing the law and having a legal society. And then get bent out of shape when societies that are superior functioning make fun of us. Which is why I said that it is not the opinion but how the opinion is expressed that count. It appears as if you want to punish parties for having an opinion .... now let's say you assaulted those couples, should your family be banned for "aiding and abetting"? Quote It takes 2 minutes to legally ban a party and freezing their assets. It takes a lot more money and time to set up a party. So logistically speaking, the 'switch names and re-form' is a losing proposition for parties that are guilty of aiding and abetting crime, because they will ALWAYS end up behind in the money and time game against authorities banning them. Since you have turned the topic in to a general discussion about banning parties if their members are criminals - let's ban every party in Ind that has members involved in any type of criminal activities (since you resort to selective reading, I just posted on this subject in the paragraph above so hopefully you would be able to create the connection) Thank you for the comedy! So again, do you have anything meaningful or interesting to post? Edited February 20, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, zen said: @Muloghonto my friend, the more you post, more comical your points get. For the sake of comedy: Yes, it is clear you are here for comedy and not to debate. Because you can't even answer a question straight. Quote Please refer to your original post where you have posted videos of "alleged" Shiv Sena and BD activists creating a situation on Valentines Day (I guess you would know what this day is for) and couple strolling near the Sabarmati respectively. Which I would connect to the broader topic of "allowing relatively young girls to date and show affection in public" which may not align with Ind culture 1. The Shiv Sena thing isn't an 'alleged' one, its DURING a Shiv Sena parade itself. See the video before you talk. 2. Regardless of 'allowing young girls to date' - the first and foremost case is that of assault. And that is what your hinduvta-conformist self is running away from. You do not have the right to assault people. That is a crime. Is that clear ? Whether people are allowed to or not, YOU, a citizen and a non-law enforcement person, does not have the right to assault another person under any circumstance, except self defence. So stop justifying assault. Quote Your points only highlights your lack of understanding about the differences b/w Indian culture and religion and/or your confusion about the subject Another BS copout- since you again, fail to touch the example i gave and instead make statements without any basis. Quote I thought it is understood that in the "context" of the discussion the answer is no. And I am sure you know that the laws gives varying degrees of punishment depending up on the involvement even to those accused of doing the same crime so there is no generalization here like you would like to believe. By the same token, every party has members who engage in criminal conduct. For e.g. corruption is a crime too and usually reaches the highest ranking in the party. So let me turn around and ask you - should Congress be banned because of corruption which is a crime? Again, running away from the points made- that if the party KNOWINGLY shelters people that are its members that commit crimes, its culpable. A party can argue that independent, rogue action done by members not acting under official party banner or even if its a one-off rogue element, is beyond party control. This, clearly is not and is an example of Gunda-raaj. Because this is happening under the party banner, by party members, is widely available in the media (if me and You have seen it, SS have seen it) and then takes no action against its members- that is aiding and abetting crime. You can make as much insane statements against it you want, but until you address SPECIFICALLY how the above statement is false, it will be nothing more than gunda-raaj enabling hot-air. Quote Which is why I said that it is not the opinion but how the opinion is expressed that count. It appears as if you want to punish parties for having an opinion .... now let's say you assaulted those couples, should your family be banned for "aiding and abetting"? If my family shelters me, protects me from the law and fails to report me after knowing it is a crime, then yes, obviously my family should be punished for obstruction of justice. Sad that Indians like yourself do not get this concept. And then you whine on why people think poorly of your nation and its state of law. A nation is nothing, if it cannot enforce its own laws. This is why India sits in the back bench with most other players that are HALF our size- because nobody trusts Indian legal system. Thanks to gunda-raaj enablers like yourself. Quote Since you have turned the topic in to a general discussion about banning parties if their members are criminals - let's ban every party in Ind that has members involved in any type of criminal activities (since you resort to selective reading, I just posted on this subject in the paragraph above so hopefully you would be able to create the connection) You do nothing more than spread lies and hot air, just to run away from things. Now, you will cut-paste for as long as i ask you, because you will not answer questions directed at you. My position is NOT that of banning parties just because its members are Goondas. It is to sanction parties- first fines, second, banning from election cycles, after that, total ban etc- when it is OBVIOUS that the party is sheltering people with crimes unpunished (such as the first video) and fails to take any action against it. Let it be clear, since you like using family as an example so much. Technically speaking, in most civilized countries, including India, if you find out your son murdered someone and nobody else knows, you NOT calling the cops and telling, is technically, a crime. And in countries where their justice system isn't so bogged down and under-funded as India, you can bet your bottom dollar you'd be in jail if there was evidence you knew but didn't call the police. Not for as long obviously, but it is still a felony. This is the same way, a party CAN be culpable for sheltering Goondas. Did SS call the police and report these guys ? Did they kick them out ? If the answer is still no, then it is a clear case of aiding and abetting crime, the same way you would be for hiding your hypothetical, murderous son. When dozens of people of the party stand by and see members commit a crime, them doing nothing, while officially representing the party- the party has to prove how 'exactly' is that rogue action and not sanctioned action. That would be the logical view in most civilized countries, but obviously, in 3rd world India, goonda-raj is still alive and kicking. Edited February 20, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 dont forget the vhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just now, G_B_ said: dont forget the vhp I haven't heard of VHP goons going around assaulting people and committing crimes then VHP sheltering them. My personal experience with VHP in Canada is that they are one of the rare Indian institutions (i am giving Indians the benefit of the doubt here. Afterall, the ISKON people here affiliated with VHP are practically Canadians/are Canadians and not part of Goonda-raj culture for decades) that actively rat out criminals amongst their midst and fully cooperate with the justice departments when they investigate a crime. But then again, this is Canada. Not India, where jiski lathi uski bhaains and our justice system has been degraded for so long, that police and public think lodging cases of assault is 'wasting the time of the court' and thus, violation of the person, is seen as no big deal in Indian legal culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_B_ Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Muloghonto said: I haven't heard of VHP goons going around assaulting people and committing crimes then VHP sheltering them. My personal experience with VHP in Canada is that they are one of the rare Indian institutions (i am giving Indians the benefit of the doubt here. Afterall, the ISKON people here affiliated with VHP are practically Canadians/are Canadians and not part of Goonda-raj culture for decades) that actively rat out criminals amongst their midst and fully cooperate with the justice departments when they investigate a crime. But then again, this is Canada. Not India, where jiski lathi uski bhaains and our justice system has been degraded for so long, that police and public think lodging cases of assault is 'wasting the time of the court' and thus, violation of the person, is seen as no big deal in Indian legal culture. membership among VHP RSS is interchangeable. IE most VHP members are RSS members. The RSS is simply a aggregation of hindu organisations. They include the VHP and for eg the Hindu Mahasabha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Yes, it is clear you are here for comedy and not to debate. Because you can't even answer a question straight. Again, is the above a serious post? Since you took the time to write an unnecessarily long posts, let's break it down: Quote 1. The Shiv Sena thing isn't an 'alleged' one, its DURING a Shiv Sena parade itself. See the video before you talk. 2. Regardless of 'allowing young girls to date' - the first and foremost case is that of assault. And that is what your hinduvta-conformist self is running away from. You do not have the right to assault people. That is a crime. Is that clear ? Whether people are allowed to or not, YOU, a citizen and a non-law enforcement person, does not have the right to assault another person under any circumstance, except self defence. So stop justifying assault. The anchor uses the word "alleged" .... And the videos are against Valentine day and showing affection in public so either use proper videos or learn to see the difference b/w Ind culture and religion My post # 16 clearly said the following: "The key point is that many people in Ind see certain "Western" type of behavior as alien to Indian culture. Are they right or wrong, we can't decide as it has to be decided by concensus on where Ind wants to go What can be seen as inappropriate is the way in which many resort to goondagiri to show their PoV. And this is where the problem lies and where action should be taken If these elements can demonstrate their PoV through more appropriate means, a social media campaign, etc, it is totally acceptable because as I said where Ind wants to go culturally should be decided through concensus Talking about banning is equalivalent to those asking for bans resorting to extreme tactics too because they feel they are on the right side To reiterate, where Ind wants to go culturally should be decided through a concensus. India culture isnt totally western inclined, neither it is totally Saudi type inclined. It is somewhere in the middle. By setting up new playing rules appropriate to Ind's culture, such frictions would be resolved" So your point #2 is not applicable too and demonstrates your habit of reading "selectively" for e.g.: Zen: Many people say that Mahatma Gandhi is not great. However, I think he is great. Muloghanto, after highlighting the Mahatma Gandhi is not great part, writes: So you think Mahatma Gandhi is not great? Blah blah Quote Another BS copout- since you again, fail to touch the example i gave and instead make statements without any basis. Again, running away from the points made- that if the party KNOWINGLY shelters people that are its members that commit crimes, its culpable. A party can argue that independent, rogue action done by members not acting under official party banner or even if its a one-off rogue element, is beyond party control. This, clearly is not and is an example of Gunda-raaj. Because this is happening under the party banner, by party members, is widely available in the media (if me and You have seen it, SS have seen it) and then takes no action against its members- that is aiding and abetting crime. You can make as much insane statements against it you want, but until you address SPECIFICALLY how the above statement is false, it will be nothing more than gunda-raaj enabling hot-air. Already addressed through various posts .... Quote If my family shelters me, protects me from the law and fails to report me after knowing it is a crime, then yes, obviously my family should be punished for obstruction of justice. Good than your whole family would be in jail and the indecent couple can freely park near your house and do their business Quote Sad that Indians like yourself do not get this concept. And then you whine on why people think poorly of your nation and its state of law. A nation is nothing, if it cannot enforce its own laws. This is why India sits in the back bench with most other players that are HALF our size- because nobody trusts Indian legal system. Thanks to gunda-raaj enablers like yourself. Various posts have clearly clarified my position on this .... Your position reminds me of the neem hakim khatre jaan story, which goes like this: In a village, a camel had a watermelon stuck in his throat. A hakim, alleviated the camel's pain by smashing the watermelon with stones A neem hakim obeserved that. In the absence of the hakim, later the neem hakim is called up on to visit an old lady who has a lump in her throat. The neem hakim recalls what happens earlier in the day and tries to emulate the hakim by smashing the lump with a stone. The lady dies Neem hakims like you are a danger to societies too Quote You do nothing more than spread lies and hot air, just to run away from things. Now, you will cut-paste for as long as i ask you, because you will not answer questions directed at you. My position is NOT that of banning parties just because its members are Goondas. It is to sanction parties- first fines, second, banning from election cycles, after that, total ban etc- when it is OBVIOUS that the party is sheltering people with crimes unpunished (such as the first video) and fails to take any action against it. Let it be clear, since you like using family as an example so much. Technically speaking, in most civilized countries, including India, if you find out your son murdered someone and nobody else knows, you NOT calling the cops and telling, is technically, a crime. And in countries where their justice system isn't so bogged down and under-funded as India, you can bet your bottom dollar you'd be in jail if there was evidence you knew but didn't call the police. Not for as long obviously, but it is still a felony. This is the same way, a party CAN be culpable for sheltering Goondas. Did SS call the police and report these guys ? Did they kick them out ? If the answer is still no, then it is a clear case of aiding and abetting crime, the same way you would be for hiding your hypothetical, murderous son. When dozens of people of the party stand by and see members commit a crime, them doing nothing, while officially representing the party- the party has to prove how 'exactly' is that rogue action and not sanctioned action. That would be the logical view in most civilized countries, but obviously, in 3rd world India, goonda-raj is still alive and kicking. Again, the point is that if parties have to be banned for having and/or supporting (by not taking action) members who do criminal activities (whatever they may be), Ind will probably have to ban many parties starting with the likes of Congress, which is corrupt .... We cannot pick and choose on which parties to ban based up on which issues are personally more important to us. If you are talking about the law, it should have universal applicability and on a broader range of issues So again, do you have anything interesting or meaningful to post? Edited February 20, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Goons exist in all parties, and parties should be held responsible for party workers, either heavy financial penalties or prosecution of their high officers the only party ban I would propose, in fact a purge or shoot at sight orders is Communists and anything related to it. All communists should be hunted down and eliminated person by person. Bunch of scumbags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda-esque Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Lets ban other questionable organizations that do "real" damage first... Laaloo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeautifulGame Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 We would be a much better society if we had done that. Sadly we won't . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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