Pakistan fast bowling factory

[sandeep]

41 minutes ago, Khota said:

 

They were roughing the ball and that explains their success.

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

[Vilander]

48 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

all that bs is trustable if they did not use bottle caps. and the acute loss of form across board once we got high speed cameras around the ground. :)

 

a cheat is a cheat, no beating around the bush. if we legalise tampering, yes then we can call them great etc. Till then they are just cheats.

 

 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

where is that art lost suddenly among Pakistanis? they had Waqar as their coach.

[sandeep]

30 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

where is that art lost suddenly among Pakistanis? they had Waqar as their coach.

Art isn't lost.  Rest of the world eventually caught up in terms of knowledge and understanding of reverse swing and how to handle it while batting.  Its not as magical and difficult an advantage as it used to be.  And yes, enforcement on 'ball management' has also gotten tighter.   

 

Biggest reason for Pak decline in int'l cricket is that there players are not getting top level contracts in country cricket anymore.   That served as a finishing and training school for their players, since their domestic cricket is a shyteshow.    

Edited October 3, 2017 by sandeep

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Art isn't lost.  Rest of the world eventually caught up in terms of knowledge and understanding of reverse swing and how to handle it while batting.  Its not as magical and difficult an advantage as it used to be.  And yes, enforcement on 'ball management' has also gotten tighter.   

 

Biggest reason for Pak decline in int'l cricket is that there players are not getting top level contracts in country cricket anymore.   That served as a finishing and training school for their players, since their domestic cricket is a shyteshow.    

what has county cricket to do with reverse swing. Regarding batsman's knowledge, you can actually see that no bowler these days reverse the ball as much as Wasim-Waqar used to do in those days. It is apparently visible to know that those guys used to reverse the ball much earlier, much more and there can be only one reason for that, ball tampering.

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

It is apparently visible to know that those guys used to reverse the ball much earlier, much more

This is a subjective claim.   and intellectually lazy IMO.  Its easy to get caught up in banter, and attribute all of Wasim-Waqar's success to tampering.  I don't think its accurate at all though.  

 

My reference to county cricket was a more general statement on the overall quality of Pakistan players - batsmen AND bowlers.   

[Vilander]

36 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Art isn't lost.  Rest of the world eventually caught up in terms of knowledge and understanding of reverse swing and how to handle it while batting.  Its not as magical and difficult an advantage as it used to be.  And yes, enforcement on 'ball management' has also gotten tighter.   

 

Biggest reason for Pak decline in int'l cricket is that there players are not getting top level contracts in country cricket anymore.   That served as a finishing and training school for their players, since their domestic cricket is a shyteshow.    

lol applology not accepted..hehe..stop telling yourself that you care dude, come on you know you dont. Some scum cheated their way and got caught with their pants down, the ball can reverse with natural and wear & tear and some legal aid ( no pun intended), the illegal aid in terms of bottle caps and mud made it prodigious which is what fetched them wickets, this went missing after increased scrutiny. Some of them were legit fine bowlers, Wasim was definitely a great and Waqar could swing at pace but you can tell that they are not the messiahs that they are made out to be , they would not have needed bottle caps if they were. 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Vilander said:

lol applology not accepted..hehe

What drugs are you on?

 

 

[Vilander]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

What drugs are you on?

 

 

one in which i read the comments fully. 

[Khota]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

Lot of seam movement they got was by lifting it. That caused some turbulence and the ball moved quiet a bit more than to be expected from simply keeping one side shining and other not. 

They were good but not that goos as they claim. 

Why has their supply of pace bowling resources diminished. I think not being able to cheat has really hurt them more than any other team.

 

[Vijy]

On 10/3/2017 at 11:38 AM, MultiB48 said:

in county they learned to bowl with new ball and also playing so many matches they had to manage them selves ,also you have to take the responsibility as you are the main guy that too in a foreign atmosphere so they grew as individuals

 

these are all the pacers who played for pak from 1970-2003 the eras of reverse swing 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Wasim Akram	1985-2002	104	181	22627	9779	414	7/119	11/110	23.62	2.59	54.6	25	5
Waqar Younis	1989-2003	87	154	16224	8788	373	7/76	13/135	23.56	3.25	43.4	22	5
Imran Khan	1971-1992	88	142	19458	8258	362	8/58	14/116	22.81	2.54	53.7	23	6
Sarfraz Nawaz	1972-1984	54	94	13747	5720	177	9/86	11/125	32.31	2.49	77.6	4	1
Shoaib Akhtar	1997-2003	27	50	4737	2587	101	6/11	10/80	25.61	3.27	46.9	6	1
Sikander Bakht	1976-1983	26	45	4870	2412	67	8/69	11/190	36.00	2.97	72.6	3	1
Mudassar Nazar	1976-1989	76	96	5967	2532	66	6/32	6/38	38.36	2.54	90.4	1	0
Azeem Hafeez	1983-1985	18	28	4351	2204	63	6/46	7/160	34.98	3.03	69.0	4	0
Aaqib Javed	1989-1998	22	37	3918	1874	54	5/84	8/118	34.70	2.86	72.5	1	0
Abdul Razzaq	1999-2002	24	38	3367	1585	48	4/25	6/155	33.02	2.82	70.1	0	0
Azhar Mahmood	1997-2001	21	35	3015	1402	39	4/50	5/95	35.94	2.79	77.3	0	0
Saleem Altaf	1971-1978	17	31	3239	1440	37	4/11	7/131	38.91	2.66	87.5	0	0
Saleem Jaffar	1986-1992	14	23	2531	1139	36	5/40	8/134	31.63	2.70	70.3	1	0
Tahir Naqqash	1982-1985	15	27	2800	1398	34	5/40	6/86	41.11	2.99	82.3	2	0
Asif Masood	1971-1977	13	22	2564	1322	32	5/111	9/160	41.31	3.09	80.1	1	0
Ata-ur-Rehman	1992-1996	13	22	1973	1071	31	4/50	4/83	34.54	3.25	63.6	0	0
Mohammad Sami	2001-2003	9	16	1887	1007	25	5/36	8/106	40.28	3.20	75.4	1	0
Mohsin Kamal	1984-1994	9	12	1348	822	24	4/116	4/41	34.25	3.65	56.1	0	0
Aamer Nazir	1993-1995	6	12	1057	597	20	5/46	8/96	29.85	3.38	52.8	1	0
Mohammad Akram	1995-2001	9	15	1477	859	17	5/138	5/138	50.52	3.48	86.8	1	0
Shabbir Ahmed	2003-2003	3	6	714	341	17	5/48	8/109	20.05	2.86	42.0	1	0
Shahid Nazir	1996-1999	8	15	1040	566	17	5/53	7/98	33.29	3.26	61.1	1	0
Ehteshamuddin	1979-1982	5	7	940	375	16	5/47	6/87	23.43	2.39	58.7	1	0
Mohammad Zahid	1996-2003	5	8	792	502	15	7/66	11/130	33.46	3.80	52.8	1	1
Umar Gul	2003-2003	3	6	707	375	15	4/58	8/144	25.00	3.18	47.1	0	0
Asif Iqbal	1971-1980	41	26	1252	540	13	3/37	3/37	41.53	2.58	96.3	0	0
Jalal-ud-Din	1982-1985	6	9	1197	537	11	3/77	5/92	48.81	2.69	108.8	0	0
Fazl-e-Akbar	1998-2001	4	7	638	349	10	3/85	3/32	34.90	3.28	63.8	0	0
Kabir Khan	1994-1995	4	6	655	370	9	3/26	4/71	41.11	3.38	72.7	0	0
Rashid Khan	1982-1985	4	7	738	360	8	3/129	3/78	45.00	2.92	92.2	0	0
Manzoor Elahi	1984-1995	6	7	444	194	7	2/38	3/70	27.71	2.62	63.4	0	0
Liaqat Ali	1975-1978	5	6	808	359	6	3/80	3/80	59.83	2.66	134.6	0	0
Zakir Khan	1986-1989	2	4	444	259	5	3/80	3/150	51.80	3.50	88.8	0	0
Naved Anjum	1989-1990	2	3	342	162	4	2/57	4/149	40.50	2.84	85.5	0	0
Ashfaq Ahmed	1993-1993	1	2	138	53	2	2/31	2/53	26.50	2.30	69.0	0	0
Ijaz Ahmed	1987-2001	60	6	180	77	2	1/9	1/9	38.50	2.56	90.0	0	0
Irfan Fazil	2000-2000	1	2	48	65	2	1/30	2/65	32.50	8.12	24.0	0	0
Shahid Mahboob	1989-1989	1	1	294	131	2	2/131	2/131	65.50	2.67	147.0	0	0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

these are the ones who played during the wasim waqar era

 

 

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Wasim Akram	1985-2002	104	181	3771.1	871	9779	414	7/119	11/110	23.62	2.59	54.6	25	5
Waqar Younis	1989-2003	87	154	2704.0	516	8788	373	7/76	13/135	23.56	3.25	43.4	22	5
Imran Khan	1985-1992	37	54	1151.1	261	2942	130	7/40	11/121	22.63	2.55	53.1	7	2
Shoaib Akhtar	1997-2002	25	46	711.4	126	2392	88	6/11	8/72	27.18	3.36	48.5	5	0
Aaqib Javed	1989-1998	22	37	653.0	136	1874	54	5/84	8/118	34.70	2.86	72.5	1	0
Abdul Razzaq	1999-2002	24	38	561.1	110	1585	48	4/25	6/155	33.02	2.82	70.1	0	0
Azhar Mahmood	1997-2001	21	35	502.3	111	1402	39	4/50	5/95	35.94	2.79	77.3	0	0
Saleem Jaffar	1986-1992	14	23	421.5	93	1139	36	5/40	8/134	31.63	2.70	70.3	1	0
Ata-ur-Rehman	1992-1996	13	22	328.5	62	1071	31	4/50	4/83	34.54	3.25	63.6	0	0
Mohammad Sami	2001-2003	9	16	314.3	57	1007	25	5/36	8/106	40.28	3.20	75.4	1	0
Mudassar Nazar	1985-1989	26	34	347.2	79	842	23	2/13	3/34	36.60	2.42	90.6	0	0
Mohsin Kamal	1985-1994	8	10	192.4	25	697	22	4/116	4/41	31.68	3.61	52.5	0	0
Aamer Nazir	1993-1995	6	12	176.1	24	597	20	5/46	8/96	29.85	3.38	52.8	1	0
Mohammad Akram	1995-2001	9	15	246.1	37	859	17	5/138	5/138	50.52	3.48	86.8	1	0
Shahid Nazir	1996-1999	8	15	173.2	32	566	17	5/53	7/98	33.29	3.26	61.1	1	0
Mohammad Zahid	1996-2003	5	8	132.0	17	502	15	7/66	11/130	33.46	3.80	52.8	1	1
Fazl-e-Akbar	1998-2001	4	7	106.2	21	349	10	3/85	3/32	34.90	3.28	63.8	0	0
Kabir Khan	1994-1995	4	6	109.1	15	370	9	3/26	4/71	41.11	3.38	72.7	0	0
Azeem Hafeez	1985-1985	2	3	99.0	25	306	6	3/157	3/149	51.00	3.09	99.0	0	0
Manzoor Elahi	1987-1995	4	5	51.0	19	118	6	2/38	3/70	19.66	2.31	51.0	0	0
Zakir Khan	1986-1989	2	4	74.0	13	259	5	3/80	3/150	51.80	3.50	88.8	0	0
Naved Anjum	1989-1990	2	3	57.0	14	162	4	2/57	4/149	40.50	2.84	85.5	0	0
Tahir Naqqash	1985-1985	1	2	33.2	5	81	3	2/23	3/81	27.00	2.43	66.6	0	0
Ashfaq Ahmed	1993-1993	1	2	23.0	9	53	2	2/31	2/53	26.50	2.30	69.0	0	0
Ijaz Ahmed	1987-2001	60	6	30.0	1	77	2	1/9	1/9	38.50	2.56	90.0	0	0
Irfan Fazil	2000-2000	1	2	8.0	0	65	2	1/30	2/65	32.50	8.12	24.0	0	0
Rashid Khan	1985-1985	1	2	32.0	9	97	2	2/64	2/97	48.50	3.03	96.0	0	0
Shahid Mahboob	1989-1989	1	1	49.0	12	131	2	2/131	2/131	65.50	2.67	147.0	0	0
Aamer Malik	1987-1994	14	9	26.0	5	89	1	1/0	1/6	89.00	3.42	156.0	0	0
Jalal-ud-Din	1985-1985	1	1	39.0	12	89	1	1/89	1/89	89.00	2.28	234.0	0	0
Shahid Saeed	1989-1989	1	2	15.0	0	43	0	-	-	-	2.86	-	0	0
Mansoor Akhtar	1987-1990	6	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

 

,most seem to have very high s/r and survived on e/r,wasim waqr had lots of skill otherwise everyone from pak would have had good numbers

 

Among bowlers with long-term careers, the only good pacers for Pak from late 80s to late 2000s were Akram and Waqar and Akhtar (who was however inconsistent). Like Amby-Walsh, the two W's carried the attack mostly by themselves. Even Waqar fell off badly after the first 5-6 years of his career.

[MCcricket]

Pakistan no doubt among Asian countries had the best attack, also during that time Imran, Akram, Waqar, M Akram, Zahid, Aaquib, Saleem Jaffer, they had a steady stream of pCers who could bowl fast, now surprisingly they have gone downhill, it's like tables have turned, we have Fast bowlers now who can bowl with menace n have skills n they have medium pacers like Hasan Ali, Sohail, haven't seen any exciting fast bowling talent coming from Pakistan in a long time , there were some bowlers like M Irfan, Wahab but turned out to be damp squib.

[speedheat]

Lol factorys Mohammad Abbas trundling around 125k dodda ganesh ki yaad dila di

[OpeningBatsman]

8 hours ago, speedheat said:

Lol factorys Mohammad Abbas trundling around 125k dodda ganesh ki yaad dila di

Dodda Ganesh 

[OpeningBatsman]

1 wicket for the faast bowlers till now in 116 overs  against the mighty Lankans 

Edited October 7, 2017 by OpeningBatsman

[SK_IH]

is hasan ali dropped or did he get injured while doing his exaggerated celebrations 

[sandeep]

37 minutes ago, OpeningBatsman said:

Dodda Ganesh 

Doddam Ganbashir Abbas

[Lala2790]

Bump.

 

Hasan Ali No. 1 ODI ranked bowler.  We keep producing these wonderful bowlers and keep our tradition of being recognized as the world's best fast bowling factory

[cric_fan]

Muhammad Asif working his magic in domestic cricket. If only this idiot had behaved.

[mishra]

On 8/16/2017 at 2:23 PM, putrevus said:

Pakistani had three ATG great fast bowlers and one or two good one but his nonsense that they have this factory of fast bowlers is ridiculous.Pakistan is very poor team just one match does not that fact.

 

It is their batting which won them CT finals not their bowling.

No, It was Kohli's ego which gifted them the cup