Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[zen]

del
 

Edited October 24, 2018 by zen

[putrevus]

36 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

I checked some numbers from the time of kohlis debut until Sachin retirement. Kohli played 40 more Odis  and averaged one more run higher than Sachin but selfish Sachin has a s/r of 92.60 compared to 86.31.

 

p.s yes I know Kohli was pretty raw so you can't compare but don't forget Sachin was close to retiring so I guess you can offset both ways. Just take it for what it's worth. It's interesting.

Sachin's best phase was from 2008 -2011 when in my view he played the best match winning cricket.Sachin 2010-11 was his best when he was playing percentage cricket and was racking 100s for fun.Even then what we are witnessing from Kohli is unreal scoring 1000 plus at over 140 avg is just insane.Look at what he has done in last two test series and tell me if Sachin played better in those bowling conditions.

[Laaloo]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Ganguly reached 10000 runs in 263 just 4 matches behind Sachin. They are in different leagues as batsman but Ganguly was not far behind in odis. Like Rohit is to Kohli now Ganguly was to Sachin then.

 

Rohit has lifted his game a lot and I would put Rohit in my All time India 11.And if Rohit does this for couple of years he will enter into ATG status in odis.

Lol Rohit. I have never seen an ATG struggle as much as Rohit does in the initial overs. Sorry yes he makes up the runs in the end, but you can never put Rohit as an ATG. Hes a product of today's odi game. Get set, and then take advantage of second new ball and so many overs of powerplay.

[express bowling]

47 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

Games played by SRT against legit ODI ATG bowlers. Not even counting some of the other very good bowlers like Gough, Steyn, Akhtar, Morkel, Fanie DeVilliers, Bracken, Fleming etc. Just the undisputed ODI ATGs.

 

 

Games played by Kohli against legit ODI ATG bowlers. 

 

 

Clearly there is no major difference in the quality of bowling faced .

 

 

 

There are quite a few current-day bowlers who may become ATGs  by the time they end their careers.

 

Moreover, what stage of career that ATG is in and how the total bowling attack is as a whole, also play  big parts.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

How many tests did Hadlee play against Sachin and what did he do there??? Ponting dominated South African bowling home and away .Overall Sachin had better career but  peak Ponting was a beast which Sachin never matched.

He still played Hadlee. Ponting didn't. 
Peak ponting was a beast after Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Akram, Younis etc. all declined. Like Kallis, his average only came up in the early 2000s, after all these great bowlers neared the end of their careers or retired. 

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I don't think Sachin faced any superior bowling attacks that is just a myth.The only series against Aussies with Warne and Mcgrath away was in 1999.

It is factual statement that Sachin has faced more great bowlers in his career than ANY batsman since 1990. 

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Sachin peak odi year was 1998 where he hit 9 hundreds every run was scored in subcontinent and Zimbabwe. This year alone Kohli scored 1000 runs in 11 matches with just two at home rest of them in SA and England. What Kohli is doing is Bradmansque which has never been done.Sachin is so far behind this guy.

Pffft. Sachin did it in a year where 250 was a defendable score for almost every single team. Kohli is doing it in an era where 300 is not defendable by most teams.

 

[putrevus]

Just now, Laaloo said:

Lol Rohit. I have never seen an ATG struggle as much as Rohit does in the initial overs. Sorry yes he makes up the runs in the end, but you can never put Rohit as an ATG. Hes a product of today's odi game. Get set, and then take advantage of second new ball and so many overs of powerplay.

Do you think Rohit once set is bothered by powerplays. Yes he does struggle against new ball and that is the reason why he stinks in test cricket.But give him credit he is one heck of batsman in shorter formats.

 

People tend to forget Sachin played till 2013 when people talk about Sachin they talk as if he retired before 2000.They come up with weird stats showing his best years vs other players total career stats.

 

 

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

He still played Hadlee. Ponting didn't. 
Peak ponting was a beast after Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Akram, Younis etc. all declined. Like Kallis, his average only came up in the early 2000s, after all these great bowlers neared the end of their careers or retired. 

It is factual statement that Sachin has faced more great bowlers in his career than ANY batsman since 1990. 

Pffft. Sachin did it in a year where 250 was a defendable score for almost every single team. Kohli is doing it in an era where 300 is not defendable by most teams.

 

That is utter nonsense, Ponting debuted in 1995 , it is not his fault that other played declined. Give me a series where Sachin faced so called great bowlers and scored runs. Lara was better early than Sachin especially in 1990s.

 

Your point about Sachin facing great bowlers is as bigger myth as Gavaskar dominating 80s West Indies attack with all their great fast bowlers. 

 

[Nikola]

13 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

Lol Rohit. I have never seen an ATG struggle as much as Rohit does in the initial overs. Sorry yes he makes up the runs in the end, but you can never put Rohit as an ATG. Hes a product of today's odi game. Get set, and then take advantage of second new ball and so many overs of powerplay.

We are talking about odis and same rules are there for kohli and other players too. 

[Laaloo]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Do you think Rohit once set is bothered by powerplays. Yes he does struggle against new ball and that is the reason why he stinks in test cricket.But give him credit he is one heck of batsman in shorter formats.

 

People tend to forget Sachin played till 2013 when people talk about Sachin they talk as if he retired before 2000.They come up with weird stats showing his best years vs other players total career stats.

 

 

No one forgets Sachin retired from Odis in 2012. There were powerplays when Sachin played as well but he never played in the era of two new balls. You are seriously undermining what a big difference this new change made as well as the last powerplay.  Of course I give credit to Rohit. Once set, there has never been a batsman that can attack the opposition like he does. But I have never seen a supposed ATG struggle like Rohit does. He always struggles. Each and every match. Looks like he can get out any time. Kind of like how yuvi was vulnerable when he initially came to the crease. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

There are quite a few current-day bowlers who may become ATGs  by the time they end their careers.

 

Moreover, what stage of career that ATG is in and how the total bowling attack is as a whole, also play  big parts.

 

 

Of course. Someone like a Rabada might go on to become an ATG and make Kohli's number look much better. As things stand I only see Starc and Bumrah who seem like certain ODI ATGs in this era. Kuldeep could be one too but it's early days.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Jimmy Cliff

[zen]

More food for thought 

 

First 10-12 years, batting position 1 to 3 .... 

 

a) involving both Tendulkar and Ganguly 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1992 and 1 Jan 2003

Involving all of the players SC Ganguly (Asia/INDIA)  or SR Tendulkar (INDIA)

Batting position between 1 and 3

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

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Showing 1 - 25 of 25

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
SC Ganguly	1996-2002	125	120	6	5046	183	44.26	6755	74.70	13	28	6	519	75
SR Tendulkar	1996-2002	110	107	7	4566	186*	45.66	5150	88.66	14	19	5	474	64
R Dravid	1996-2001	59	58	4	2306	153	42.70	3229	71.41	5	15	1	215	13

 

• Avgs are similar but variation in SR is huge 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Involving all of the players V Kohli (INDIA)  or RG Sharma (INDIA)

Batting position between 1 and 3

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

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Showing 1 - 18 of 18

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	2008-2018	112	111	16	5989	183	63.04	6383	93.82	22	28	10	557	69
RG Sharma	2011-2018	85	84	7	4111	264	53.38	4499	91.37	14	18	3	395	133
S Dhawan	2011-2018	70	69	4	2946	137	45.32	3107	94.81	9	15	1	374	30

 

• SRs are similar but the variation in avg is huge

 

Accounting for both Avg and SR, both Sachin and Kohli are ahead of the 2nd best batsman by similar margins: 

 

 

 

Therefore, at this point, voting for either has valid points! 

 

 

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Of course. Someone like a Rabada might go on to become an ATG and make Kohli's number look much better. As things stand I only see Starc and Bumrah who seem like certain ODI ATGs in this era. Kuldeep could be one too but it's early days.

 

Bumrah, Starc, Kuldeep, Rabada, Ngidi, Hazlewood, Hasan Ali, Rashid Khan and Mustafizur all have potential in ODIs.  Not all of them will make it but quite a few will.

Edited October 24, 2018 by express bowling

[Nikola]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Bumrah, Starc, Kuldeep, Rabada, Ngidi, Hazlewood, Hasan Ali, Rashid Khan and Mustafizur all have potential in ODIs.  Not all of them will make it but quite a few will.

[Jimmy Cliff]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Bumrah, Starc, Kuldeep, Rabada, Ngidi, Hazlewood, Hasan Ali, Rashid Khan and Mustafizur all have potential in ODIs.  Not all of them will make it but quite a few will.

Ndigi is completely unknown quantity for me in LOIs. Mustafizur will be a Bangla Bracken at best. Not sure if Rashid will get the opportunities that he deserves. I am most confident about Starc, Bumrah and Kuldeep. In fact, Starc is pretty much an ATG already with his great record and MOTS performance in the 2015 WC.

[Laaloo]

7 minutes ago, UnknownGenius said:

Doesn't matter where check era, doesn't matter which form of cricket ODI or t20 or test, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter against whome, Kohli is better than selfishness that was tendy

 

Case closed

Didn't you close the case earlier? And you're still closing? Seems like you're doing a bad job tikolo

[Rasgulla]

9 minutes ago, UnknownGenius said:

Doesn't matter where check era, doesn't matter which form of cricket ODI or t20 or test, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter against whome, Kohli is better than selfishness that was tendy

 

Case closed

Keep burning sachin chamchas

[rtmohanlal]

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Bumrah, Starc, Kuldeep, Rabada, Ngidi, Hazlewood, Hasan Ali, Rashid Khan and Mustafizur all have potential in ODIs.  Not all of them will make it but quite a few will.

they all might be avg:ing  <25 as of now. But at the same times lots of batsmen are avg:in 50+ now  a days  too. In Sachin's era

while the great  bowlers avg:ed <25 ,  40+  avg:ing was the general trend for great batsmen. This implies one fact that we can't take <25 alone  as measure of greatness for today's bowlers. A lot of these bowlers's econ:s are very huge in the range of 5-6. This points to

one fact that  bowlers of today get cheap wkts while batsmen go for that extra run in today's  generally very  high scoring  one dayers. 

Which in turn means the bowling avg: alone cannot be taken as a criteria for greatness in today's high scoring days

[mishra]

48 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Bumrah, Starc, Kuldeep, Rabada, Ngidi, Hazlewood, Hasan Ali, Rashid Khan and Mustafizur all have potential in ODIs.  Not all of them will make it but quite a few will.

There wont be any bowling great in odis in modern era. Not because every team has Kohli batting for them. But because, modern bowlers stand no chance in current set of rules agaianst any batsmen

 

To get a odi bowling great, We need to go back to old rule

[mishra]

13 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

they all might be avg:ing  <25 as of now. But at the same times lots of batsmen are avg:in 50+ now  a days  too. In Sachin's era

while the great  bowlers avg:ed <25 ,  40+  avg:ing was the general trend for great batsmen. This implies one fact that we can't take <25 alone  as measure of greatness for today's bowlers. A lot of these bowlers's econ:s are very huge in the range of 5-6. This points to

one fact that  bowlers of today get cheap wkts while batsmen go for that extra run in today's  generally very  high scoring  one dayers. 

Which in turn means the bowling avg: alone cannot be taken as a criteria for greatness in today's high scoring days

Exactly, Now a days, more often then not, Its scoreboard pressure which gets the bat out.

[rtmohanlal]

2 minutes ago, mishra said:

There wont be any bowling great in odis in modern era. Not because every team has Kohli batting for them. But because, modern bowlers stand no chance in current set of rules agaianst any batsmen

 

To get a odi bowling great, We need to go back to old rule

that is a bit strange thinking  ... the need is to filter out the criteria for greatness  based on existing rules. For a start , providing very high weightage for econ:    in addition to a <25  avg: would be sensible