Whether Virat Kohli overtook Sachin as the test batsmen ??

[Adamant]

30 minutes ago, New guy said:

Thats not the only sachin KO in world cups, he averages 51 in world cup semis and finals with 2 match winnings knocks

 

In the semi of 96 he scored 63 on one of the most difficult second innings wicket ever and only got out in a freakish way

 

In 2003 scored a match winning 83, albeit against kenya in the semis

 

In 2011 his knock in the semis was match winnings and the difference, you can cry about drops you want, but kohli's entire test career is because of his drops and misses in the english series and other series he succeded, every batsman has that

 

He failed in 2 finals but the sample size is too small and its a freak incident, not a pattern, he has one of the all time great record in tournament finals in general, outside world cup, averaging 55 in tournament finals with 6 100s, this includes india first series win against aus outside aus and first series win against aus in Aus

Please don’t get defensive, I can state my opinion here and Kohli being regarded as a better odi batsman than Sachin is not an unpopular opinion, you can go and check bigfooty and cricket web, most of the online forums do rate him higher.

 

No need to get into personal insults or crying comments etc.

 

That 81 is one of the worst knocks in semis and doesn’t deserve to be mentioned as a good knock.

 

As for the other knock vs Kenya, It was a decent knock . Quite similar to Kohlis knock vs Bangladesh in CT semifinal 2017. Both knocks were against minnows who qualified for knockouts. Doesn’t make much of a difference.

 

No need to bring in test matches for Kohli, I don’t rate him in tests.

 

The point is Kohli has a match winning knock in two CT semifinals, one match winning knock in CT finals, one century in Wc semis and his world cup final record is way better than sachin.

[Nikhil_cric]

2 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Was talking about odi bhai.

Im talking about ODIs too. Those were not easy pitches and he averaged 180 in that series when AB and Rohit averaged in the 20's. 

 

Wasn't just a statistical marvel . Never batted better than in that era

 

[sensible-indian]

38 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Im talking about ODIs too. Those were not easy pitches and he averaged 180 in that series when AB and Rohit averaged in the 20's. 

 

Wasn't just a statistical marvel . Never batted better than in that era

 

Of course he was in God mode but he didnt have that mental edge the pre 2014 Kohli had (imho).

 

The only 3 games that mattered im his prime were 2015 SF, 2017 Finals and 2019 SF and Kohli sank without a trace in all of them.

 

Compare that to his legendary performance in 2012 CB series against SL with the series on the line or the 2013 Pak game with the series on the line or even the 2013 CT finals where he kept at it....and the crucial crucial knock in WC finals 2011 (yes not match winning on its own but had he got out soon, we probably would have lost the WC).

 

Even the 2014 NZ series...he was one man army and as long as he was in the crease, opponents knew they were gonna lose.

 

That was a special Kohli even tho he may not be the batsman Kohli was in his prime.

 

Actually pre 2014 Kohli was a great player of spin...even in tests, he could handle rank turners but kept getting out due to silly mistakes...

 

I thought that version of Kohli would go on to beat Tendulkar in ODIs...atleast he was on the trajectory.

 

In his prime, he was a beast in bilaterals but would crumble against left arm pace in high pressure games in the only games that mattered.

 

Flat as hell pitches, 2 new balls, icc tourneys structured you only gotta win 2 knockouts to win the cup. Practically SF spot was assured.

 

Aka statistical marvel.

 

Check his performance against SA in SA ODI series in 2010....that was some solid performance. Averaged 50 on some seriously tough pitches against solid bowling.

Edited January 7 by sensible-indian

[R!TTER]

4 hours ago, New guy said:

He failed in 2 finals but the sample size is too small and its a freak incident, not a pattern, he has one of the all time great record in tournament finals in general, outside world cup, averaging 55 in tournament finals with 6 100s, this includes india first series win against aus outside aus and first series win against aus in Aus

Among Indians no one has a better record in KO & that the only one close is SCG (in ICC tourneys) with a much smaller sample size!

 

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 2029

Tournament type 3-4 team tournaments  or 5+ team tournaments

Match type tournament finals  or tournament cons. finals  or tournament semi-finals  or tournament quarter-finals

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 400

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
DM Jones (AUS)	1990-1994	14	14	3	680	117*	61.81	883	77.01	2	4	1	37	8
G Kirsten (SA)	1994-2002	24	24	5	1084	118*	57.05	1477	73.39	3	7	0	99	3
SPD Smith (AUS)	2014-2023	9	9	1	441	105	55.12	547	80.62	1	3	0	41	2
MG Bevan (AUS)	1994-2003	31	24	8	878	75*	54.87	1227	71.55	0	9	2	52	3
A Symonds (AUS)	1999-2008	26	21	5	814	151	50.87	939	86.68	1	5	1	60	13
RP Arnold (SL)	1999-2007	22	21	6	709	76	47.26	875	81.02	0	7	1	50	6
SR Tendulkar (IND)	1991-2011	49	48	3	2124	141	47.20	2542	83.55	5	13	4	210	21
ML Hayden (AUS)	1994-2008	22	22	2	899	126	44.95	1222	73.56	1	6	0	87	7
DA Warner (AUS)	2012-2023	10	10	0	449	163	44.90	468	95.94	2	0	0	39	9
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1995-2011	19	18	2	709	80	44.31	1057	67.07	0	6	0	57	6
SR Watson (AUS)	2002-2015	20	18	5	571	136*	43.92	712	80.19	2	2	1	47	16
TM Dilshan (SL)	2000-2015	23	22	4	787	110	43.72	871	90.35	3	2	2	85	6
MS Dhoni (IND)	2005-2019	19	18	3	644	91*	42.93	778	82.77	0	6	1	46	12
HH Gibbs (SA)	1999-2007	13	12	1	465	116*	42.27	623	74.63	1	2	0	52	4
DR Martyn (AUS)	1998-2006	30	25	7	755	88*	41.94	1050	71.90	0	7	0	61	4
DC Boon (AUS)	1990-1995	15	15	4	452	78	41.09	765	59.08	0	2	0	33	1
PA de Silva (SL)	1990-2003	30	30	4	1062	107*	40.84	1186	89.54	2	7	1	105	8
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1990-2002	35	35	2	1324	140	40.12	1580	83.79	5	4	1	143	16
ST Jayasuriya (SL)	1991-2009	47	47	1	1835	189	39.89	1854	98.97	2	14	5	211	39
MJ Clarke (AUS)	2003-2015	26	23	5	716	117	39.77	757	94.58	1	4	1	58	6
RT Ponting (AUS)	1995-2011	53	52	6	1829	140*	39.76	2263	80.82	4	8	3	155	24
M Azharuddin (IND)	1991-1999	27	27	4	909	90*	39.52	1080	84.16	0	7	3	55	8
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	34	33	2	1204	83	38.83	1673	71.96	0	11	1	112	6
SC Ganguly (IND)	1997-2005	34	32	2	1163	141*	38.76	1629	71.39	4	4	0	113	19
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	1999-2015	39	37	4	1278	115*	38.72	1562	81.81	2	10	3	111	10
MA Taylor (AUS)	1990-1996	16	16	0	619	82	38.68	915	67.65	0	6	1	53	1
A Ranatunga (SL)	1990-1998	23	23	4	732	90*	38.52	880	83.18	0	4	1	54	8
BC Lara (WI)	1993-2006	26	25	2	861	153	37.43	1111	77.49	2	4	2	102	2
JH Kallis (SA)	1997-2011	26	26	5	777	113*	37.00	1160	66.98	1	4	2	66	8
AP Gurusinha (SL)	1990-1996	12	11	0	403	85	36.63	580	69.48	0	2	0	28	4
MS Atapattu (SL)	1997-2006	31	31	2	1056	132*	36.41	1551	68.08	2	7	2	103	2
NS Sidhu (IND)	1991-1998	15	14	1	469	93	36.07	711	65.96	0	3	0	36	1
Saleem Malik (PAK)	1990-1998	22	20	2	644	87	35.77	809	79.60	0	4	0	52	5
R Dravid (IND)	1996-2009	29	27	1	913	103*	35.11	1360	67.13	1	4	3	76	4
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2015	13	13	1	411	133*	34.25	444	92.56	1	2	2	52	13
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1998-2008	41	41	2	1335	149	34.23	1331	100.30	3	6	2	164	23
WJ Cronje (SA)	1992-2000	25	22	1	706	79	33.61	979	72.11	0	5	2	43	13
ME Waugh (AUS)	1990-2001	36	36	2	1141	173	33.55	1401	81.44	3	5	4	93	5
SR Waugh (AUS)	1990-2001	37	31	5	872	71	33.53	1188	73.40	0	9	0	57	7
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)	1992-2005	42	38	4	1118	137*	32.88	1521	73.50	1	8	3	92	10
V Kohli (IND)	2009-2023	16	15	2	418	117	32.15	511	81.80	1	2	0	35	4

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 2029

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or World Cup

Tournament type 3-4 team tournaments  or 5+ team tournaments

Match type tournament finals  or tournament cons. finals  or tournament semi-finals  or tournament quarter-finals

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 200

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1996-2000	5	5	2	385	113*	128.33	446	86.32	3	0	0	45	3
DA Miller (SA)	2013-2023	4	3	1	206	101	103.00	185	111.35	1	1	0	19	10
GD Elliott (NZ)	2009-2015	5	5	2	278	84*	92.66	278	100.00	0	3	0	21	7
HH Gibbs (SA)	1999-2007	4	4	1	262	116*	87.33	294	89.11	1	1	0	32	1
SR Watson (AUS)	2002-2015	11	10	5	427	136*	85.40	521	81.95	2	2	1	38	13
PA Wallace (WI)	1998-1998	3	3	0	221	103	73.66	205	107.80	1	1	0	29	6
ME Trescothick (ENG)	2000-2004	3	3	0	211	104	70.33	248	85.08	1	1	0	26	2
SPD Smith (AUS)	2015-2023	6	6	1	345	105	69.00	423	81.56	1	3	0	30	2
SC Ganguly (IND)	1998-2003	9	7	1	403	141*	67.16	474	85.02	2	1	0	39	13
A Ranatunga (SL)	1996-1998	5	5	2	201	90*	67.00	220	91.36	0	1	0	21	1
JH Kallis (SA)	1998-2011	10	10	2	475	113*	59.37	647	73.41	1	3	0	39	7
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1996-2011	10	10	2	472	80	59.00	702	67.23	0	4	0	43	4
DR Martyn (AUS)	1998-2006	7	7	2	279	88*	55.80	372	75.00	0	2	0	30	1
TM Dilshan (SL)	2007-2015	7	7	2	276	108*	55.20	325	84.92	1	1	1	30	3
WU Tharanga (SL)	2007-2011	5	5	1	213	102*	53.25	255	83.52	1	1	0	26	3
CH Gayle (WI)	2004-2015	6	6	1	263	133*	52.60	245	107.34	1	1	0	32	13
MJ Guptill (NZ)	2009-2019	9	9	1	397	237*	49.62	420	94.52	1	0	0	37	15
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	2000-2015	12	11	3	387	115*	48.37	452	85.61	2	1	0	36	3
SR Tendulkar (IND)	1996-2011	14	13	1	574	141	47.83	712	80.61	1	4	0	66	7
Yuvraj Singh (IND)	2000-2017	11	9	2	329	84	47.00	361	91.13	0	3	1	41	0
V Sehwag (IND)	2002-2011	7	7	2	232	82	46.40	215	107.90	0	2	1	37	4
RT Ponting (AUS)	1996-2011	18	18	2	731	140*	45.68	896	81.58	3	1	2	61	13
BC Lara (WI)	1996-2006	9	9	2	299	111	42.71	337	88.72	1	1	0	36	1
WJ Cronje (SA)	1992-1999	6	6	1	212	67	42.40	258	82.17	0	2	1	13	4
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	12	11	1	422	54	42.20	682	61.87	0	3	0	42	2
MS Dhoni (IND)	2011-2019	8	7	1	242	91*	40.33	286	84.61	0	3	1	15	5
ME Waugh (AUS)	1996-2000	7	7	1	240	110	40.00	288	83.33	1	1	2	16	2
KS Williamson (NZ)	2011-2023	8	8	1	277	69	39.57	357	77.59	0	2	0	27	2
MG Bevan (AUS)	1996-2003	10	7	1	232	69	38.66	364	63.73	0	2	1	16	1
V Kohli (IND)	2011-2023	10	10	1	347	117	38.55	405	85.67	1	2	0	26	4

Edited January 7 by R!TTER

[Adamant]

15 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Among Indians no one has a better record in KO & that the only one close is SCG (in ICC tourneys) with a much smaller sample size!

 

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 2029

Tournament type 3-4 team tournaments  or 5+ team tournaments

Match type tournament finals  or tournament cons. finals  or tournament semi-finals  or tournament quarter-finals

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 400

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
DM Jones (AUS)	1990-1994	14	14	3	680	117*	61.81	883	77.01	2	4	1	37	8
G Kirsten (SA)	1994-2002	24	24	5	1084	118*	57.05	1477	73.39	3	7	0	99	3
SPD Smith (AUS)	2014-2023	9	9	1	441	105	55.12	547	80.62	1	3	0	41	2
MG Bevan (AUS)	1994-2003	31	24	8	878	75*	54.87	1227	71.55	0	9	2	52	3
A Symonds (AUS)	1999-2008	26	21	5	814	151	50.87	939	86.68	1	5	1	60	13
RP Arnold (SL)	1999-2007	22	21	6	709	76	47.26	875	81.02	0	7	1	50	6
SR Tendulkar (IND)	1991-2011	49	48	3	2124	141	47.20	2542	83.55	5	13	4	210	21
ML Hayden (AUS)	1994-2008	22	22	2	899	126	44.95	1222	73.56	1	6	0	87	7
DA Warner (AUS)	2012-2023	10	10	0	449	163	44.90	468	95.94	2	0	0	39	9
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1995-2011	19	18	2	709	80	44.31	1057	67.07	0	6	0	57	6
SR Watson (AUS)	2002-2015	20	18	5	571	136*	43.92	712	80.19	2	2	1	47	16
TM Dilshan (SL)	2000-2015	23	22	4	787	110	43.72	871	90.35	3	2	2	85	6
MS Dhoni (IND)	2005-2019	19	18	3	644	91*	42.93	778	82.77	0	6	1	46	12
HH Gibbs (SA)	1999-2007	13	12	1	465	116*	42.27	623	74.63	1	2	0	52	4
DR Martyn (AUS)	1998-2006	30	25	7	755	88*	41.94	1050	71.90	0	7	0	61	4
DC Boon (AUS)	1990-1995	15	15	4	452	78	41.09	765	59.08	0	2	0	33	1
PA de Silva (SL)	1990-2003	30	30	4	1062	107*	40.84	1186	89.54	2	7	1	105	8
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1990-2002	35	35	2	1324	140	40.12	1580	83.79	5	4	1	143	16
ST Jayasuriya (SL)	1991-2009	47	47	1	1835	189	39.89	1854	98.97	2	14	5	211	39
MJ Clarke (AUS)	2003-2015	26	23	5	716	117	39.77	757	94.58	1	4	1	58	6
RT Ponting (AUS)	1995-2011	53	52	6	1829	140*	39.76	2263	80.82	4	8	3	155	24
M Azharuddin (IND)	1991-1999	27	27	4	909	90*	39.52	1080	84.16	0	7	3	55	8
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	34	33	2	1204	83	38.83	1673	71.96	0	11	1	112	6
SC Ganguly (IND)	1997-2005	34	32	2	1163	141*	38.76	1629	71.39	4	4	0	113	19
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	1999-2015	39	37	4	1278	115*	38.72	1562	81.81	2	10	3	111	10
MA Taylor (AUS)	1990-1996	16	16	0	619	82	38.68	915	67.65	0	6	1	53	1
A Ranatunga (SL)	1990-1998	23	23	4	732	90*	38.52	880	83.18	0	4	1	54	8
BC Lara (WI)	1993-2006	26	25	2	861	153	37.43	1111	77.49	2	4	2	102	2
JH Kallis (SA)	1997-2011	26	26	5	777	113*	37.00	1160	66.98	1	4	2	66	8
AP Gurusinha (SL)	1990-1996	12	11	0	403	85	36.63	580	69.48	0	2	0	28	4
MS Atapattu (SL)	1997-2006	31	31	2	1056	132*	36.41	1551	68.08	2	7	2	103	2
NS Sidhu (IND)	1991-1998	15	14	1	469	93	36.07	711	65.96	0	3	0	36	1
Saleem Malik (PAK)	1990-1998	22	20	2	644	87	35.77	809	79.60	0	4	0	52	5
R Dravid (IND)	1996-2009	29	27	1	913	103*	35.11	1360	67.13	1	4	3	76	4
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2015	13	13	1	411	133*	34.25	444	92.56	1	2	2	52	13
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1998-2008	41	41	2	1335	149	34.23	1331	100.30	3	6	2	164	23
WJ Cronje (SA)	1992-2000	25	22	1	706	79	33.61	979	72.11	0	5	2	43	13
ME Waugh (AUS)	1990-2001	36	36	2	1141	173	33.55	1401	81.44	3	5	4	93	5
SR Waugh (AUS)	1990-2001	37	31	5	872	71	33.53	1188	73.40	0	9	0	57	7
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)	1992-2005	42	38	4	1118	137*	32.88	1521	73.50	1	8	3	92	10
V Kohli (IND)	2009-2023	16	15	2	418	117	32.15	511	81.80	1	2	0	35	4

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 2029

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or World Cup

Tournament type 3-4 team tournaments  or 5+ team tournaments

Match type tournament finals  or tournament cons. finals  or tournament semi-finals  or tournament quarter-finals

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 200

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1996-2000	5	5	2	385	113*	128.33	446	86.32	3	0	0	45	3
DA Miller (SA)	2013-2023	4	3	1	206	101	103.00	185	111.35	1	1	0	19	10
GD Elliott (NZ)	2009-2015	5	5	2	278	84*	92.66	278	100.00	0	3	0	21	7
HH Gibbs (SA)	1999-2007	4	4	1	262	116*	87.33	294	89.11	1	1	0	32	1
SR Watson (AUS)	2002-2015	11	10	5	427	136*	85.40	521	81.95	2	2	1	38	13
PA Wallace (WI)	1998-1998	3	3	0	221	103	73.66	205	107.80	1	1	0	29	6
ME Trescothick (ENG)	2000-2004	3	3	0	211	104	70.33	248	85.08	1	1	0	26	2
SPD Smith (AUS)	2015-2023	6	6	1	345	105	69.00	423	81.56	1	3	0	30	2
SC Ganguly (IND)	1998-2003	9	7	1	403	141*	67.16	474	85.02	2	1	0	39	13
A Ranatunga (SL)	1996-1998	5	5	2	201	90*	67.00	220	91.36	0	1	0	21	1
JH Kallis (SA)	1998-2011	10	10	2	475	113*	59.37	647	73.41	1	3	0	39	7
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1996-2011	10	10	2	472	80	59.00	702	67.23	0	4	0	43	4
DR Martyn (AUS)	1998-2006	7	7	2	279	88*	55.80	372	75.00	0	2	0	30	1
TM Dilshan (SL)	2007-2015	7	7	2	276	108*	55.20	325	84.92	1	1	1	30	3
WU Tharanga (SL)	2007-2011	5	5	1	213	102*	53.25	255	83.52	1	1	0	26	3
CH Gayle (WI)	2004-2015	6	6	1	263	133*	52.60	245	107.34	1	1	0	32	13
MJ Guptill (NZ)	2009-2019	9	9	1	397	237*	49.62	420	94.52	1	0	0	37	15
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	2000-2015	12	11	3	387	115*	48.37	452	85.61	2	1	0	36	3
SR Tendulkar (IND)	1996-2011	14	13	1	574	141	47.83	712	80.61	1	4	0	66	7
Yuvraj Singh (IND)	2000-2017	11	9	2	329	84	47.00	361	91.13	0	3	1	41	0
V Sehwag (IND)	2002-2011	7	7	2	232	82	46.40	215	107.90	0	2	1	37	4
RT Ponting (AUS)	1996-2011	18	18	2	731	140*	45.68	896	81.58	3	1	2	61	13
BC Lara (WI)	1996-2006	9	9	2	299	111	42.71	337	88.72	1	1	0	36	1
WJ Cronje (SA)	1992-1999	6	6	1	212	67	42.40	258	82.17	0	2	1	13	4
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	12	11	1	422	54	42.20	682	61.87	0	3	0	42	2
MS Dhoni (IND)	2011-2019	8	7	1	242	91*	40.33	286	84.61	0	3	1	15	5
ME Waugh (AUS)	1996-2000	7	7	1	240	110	40.00	288	83.33	1	1	2	16	2
KS Williamson (NZ)	2011-2023	8	8	1	277	69	39.57	357	77.59	0	2	0	27	2
MG Bevan (AUS)	1996-2003	10	7	1	232	69	38.66	364	63.73	0	2	1	16	1
V Kohli (IND)	2011-2023	10	10	1	347	117	38.55	405	85.67	1	2	0	26	4

3-4 team tournaments are not icc trophies. Kohli has only played 10 matches here, Sachin has played 49.

 

We were talking about odi world cup and champions trophy.

Edited January 8 by Adamant

[StraightDrive26]

36 minutes ago, Adamant said:

3-4 team tournaments are not icc trophies. Kohli has only played 10 matches here, Sachin has played 49.

 

We were talking about odi world cup and champions trophy.

Sachin still averages higher than Virat in knockouts of World Cup and Champions trophy. Actually even Rohit & Ganguly have better records than Virat in ODI ICC knockouts. Ganguly averages 82 and Rohit averages 53.8

 

Sachin 48.71 in 15 innings

Virat 44.60 in 12 innings

Both have only 1 hundred each in knockouts

The above is just for ODIs as Sachin did not play any WC's in T20Is. If you look at overall record and include league games as well then Virat Kohli has an higher average

Virat 64 and Sachin 52

Sachin has 7 Hundreds and 16 fifties in 58 innings

Virat has 5 Hundreds and 17 fifties in 49 innings

 

So not sure how Virat is clearly better or way ahead of Sachin in anything. Please don't bring in T20 WC stats as it is irrelevant as Sachin did not play any. 

Edited January 8 by StraightDrive26

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

3-4 team tournaments are not icc trophies. Kohli has only played 10 matches here, Sachin has played 49.

 

We were talking about odi world cup and champions trophy.

That's only because the ICC (plus IPL) has practially killed any tri/multilateral tourneys' we used to have for over 3 decades! In terms of "prestige" no one gives a * about anything other than the World Cup, so for me at least CT is basically on par with something like CB series which SRT helped us win in 2008 vs Oz.

[sensible-indian]

I can totally see what this argument is about.

 

It wont be resolved until you DELINK pressure games from pressure situations.

 

A pressure game is a high profile game.

 

A pressure situation can occur in any game (normal or high profile game).

 

Sachin was a much better player in pressure games (in his absolute prime, he was a force of nature but talking in general). His powers clearly waned in pressure cooker situations.

 

Kohli and Dhoni are undoubtedly better pressure situation players (Kohli has way better control in pressure situations but when he sinks in a pressure game, he sinks without a trace....same with Dhoni).

 

We need both types of players for a well rounded team.

 

I have talked about this before but dont have the energy to really expand on this with examples.

 

But think it over and it will make sense.

Edited January 8 by sensible-indian

[New guy]

2 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

I can totally see what this argument is about.

 

I

 

Sachin was a much better player in pressure games (in his absolute prime, he was a force of nature but talking in general). His powers clearly waned in pressure cooker situations.

 

Bullshit, this is based on a sample size of 2 matches, in 2 finals? Ponting played 6 world cup finals and succeeded in one. Two is a very small sample size and just  a coincidence, not a pattern.

[sensible-indian]

14 minutes ago, New guy said:

Bullshit, this is based on a sample size of 2 matches, in 2 finals? Ponting played 6 world cup finals and succeeded in one. Two is a very small sample size and just  a coincidence, not a pattern.

Nah.

 

I never even talked about world cup finals.

 

Heck, im saying tendulkar is a better pressure game player inspite of him not clicking in the two biggest pressure games.

[Number]

2 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

 

 

Kohli and Dhoni are undoubtedly better pressure situation players (Kohli has way better control in pressure situations but when he sinks in a pressure game, he sinks without a trace....same with 

That is more of a perception than reality.

 

Kohli was really good in T20I pressure games before the last T20 world cup but failed in so many ODI pressure matches. 2015 WC SF (absolute choke, came in a very good position but couldn't put bat on the ball), 2017 CT final, 2019 WC SF and even in 2023 his SF or Finals knocks were hardly match defining. 

 

Dhoni has just one notable good knock in all ICC tournaments he played. That too when he came in when ship was steady, the batsman at the other end was set, player of the tournament and one more batsman was yet to bat, the score was just above par. 

 

[sensible-indian]

12 minutes ago, Number said:

That is more of a perception than reality.

 

Kohli was really good in T20I pressure games before the last T20 world cup but failed in so many ODI pressure matches. 2015 WC SF (absolute choke, came in a very good position but couldn't put bat on the ball), 2017 CT final, 2019 WC SF and even in 2023 his SF or Finals knocks were hardly match defining. 

 

Dhoni has just one notable good knock in all ICC tournaments he played. That too when he came in when ship was steady, the batsman at the other end was set, player of the tournament and one more batsman was yet to bat, the score was just above par. 

 

 

Leaving aside a few minor points (which i completely disagree with)...your post actually validates my point.

 

Pressure situation vs pressure game

[Number]

9 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

 

Leaving aside a few minor points (which i completely disagree with)...your post actually validates my point.

 

Pressure situation vs pressure game

Agree that Kohli once takes control of situations in chase is probably the best ever. How smoothly he used to turn the game in his side is just astonishing.

 

Don't agree on Dhoni.

Fluffed way more chases across formats than he succeeded.

 

[sensible-indian]

36 minutes ago, Number said:

Agree that Kohli once takes control of situations in chase is probably the best ever. How smoothly he used to turn the game in his side is just astonishing.

 

Don't agree on Dhoni.

Fluffed way more chases across formats than he succeeded.

 

Yes but the amount of games he has taken control is also impressive.

 

The tri series win against SL in 2013 was purely due to Dhoni's genius.

 

His take it to the last over mantra is overrated and has caused many issues but still...he remains an amazing pressure situation player.

[Lord]

57 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Yes but the amount of games he has taken control is also impressive.

 

The tri series win against SL in 2013 was purely due to Dhoni's genius.

 

His take it to the last over mantra is overrated and has caused many issues but still...he remains an amazing pressure situation player.

 

He failed more than he succeeded in last over and even successes are against likes of Eranga,Unadkat types

[Laaloo]

6 hours ago, Number said:

Agree that Kohli once takes control of situations in chase is probably the best ever. How smoothly he used to turn the game in his side is just astonishing.

 

Don't agree on Dhoni.

Fluffed way more chases across formats than he succeeded.

 

Yup Dhoni has two great innings in Finals/Semi Finals otherwise he has been an outright failure.

 

2007 T20 SF against Australia

2011 WC Final

 

As you pointed out, both times when the stage was already set and India were doing very well.

[Adamant]

10 hours ago, R!TTER said:

That's only because the ICC (plus IPL) has practially killed any tri/multilateral tourneys' we used to have for over 3 decades! In terms of "prestige" no one gives a * about anything other than the World Cup, so for me at least CT is basically on par with something like CB series which SRT helped us win in 2008 vs Oz.

Icc trophies do count more than any other Loi tournament and all those trophies are prestigious, way more than CB trophy or kitply trophy.

 

Atleast that’s what the governing body says.

 

For me, this is the order

 

Icc world cup

Champions trophy

world t20

Asia cup

 

These are the four most important trophies in LOi for Asian nations.

[vvvslaxman]

In ODIs Kohli's domination started after two new ball introduction. ALso pitches were flatter than ever before. Shakib made 606 runs in 2019 world cup. 2015, 2023 all were flat pitch world cups with 2 new balls. Then 4 fielder restriction. Plus you got free hits. Kohli is a towering figure in the current in ODIs. Would he have done the same in a different era where the mindset was different? Possibly. 

[Adamant]

9 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

I can totally see what this argument is about.

 

It wont be resolved until you DELINK pressure games from pressure situations.

 

A pressure game is a high profile game.

 

A pressure situation can occur in any game (normal or high profile game).

 

Sachin was a much better player in pressure games (in his absolute prime, he was a force of nature but talking in general). His powers clearly waned in pressure cooker situations.

 

Kohli and Dhoni are undoubtedly better pressure situation players (Kohli has way better control in pressure situations but when he sinks in a pressure game, he sinks without a trace....same with Dhoni).

 

We need both types of players for a well rounded team.

 

I have talked about this before but dont have the energy to really expand on this with examples.

 

But think it over and it will make sense.

Sorry, this looks like a very superficial way yo explain things.

 

In world cup 2011, Sachin played one good innings in knockout , that 50 odd in quarter finals, even there he was a support act. 

 

In 2003, he failed against Aus and scored only against the minnows Kenya.

 

He has one 65(88) against SriLanka in semis, none of these innings can be considered great or anywhere close to it.

 

We can probably say that he has been decent in WC kos but that is it, do you see a single defining innings he has played in KOs?

I clearly can’t see one, people are adding kitply cup and Cb series finals to boost his record.

 

Similarly, Kohli has a century in Semis of world cup and a 55 in finals, his 35 in 2011 finals was also an important innings, I don’t see any difference between these two in WC kos, both were decent, that is it. If Sachin had an innings like Gambhir s 97 or Silva in wc final, I would have understood your point.

 

 

If we are talking about league games in Wc , Kohlis performance in 2023 has overtaken any player’s performance, let alone Tendulkar.

 

His 80 odd vs Aus, 90 odd vs Nz in chase, along with two more hundreds in group games and breaking the all time highest run record in a world cup puts him right on the top.

 

If we count Champions trophy then there is absolutely no Comparison whatsoever, Sachin averages around 36 in CT at str rate of 76, Kohli averages 88 at 93 str rate with match winning innings in two semifinals and one finals of CT.

 

Kohli is better than Tendulkar in pressure situations and pressure games. Champions trophy performance comparison absolutely kills your argument.

 

[Adamant]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In ODIs Kohli's domination started after two new ball introduction. ALso pitches were flatter than ever before. Shakib made 606 runs in 2019 world cup. 2015, 2023 all were flat pitch world cups with 2 new balls. Then 4 fielder restriction. Plus you got free hits. Kohli is a towering figure in the current in ODIs. Would he have done the same in a different era where the mindset was different? Possibly. 

Would Bradman have averaged 99 in this era?

Would Hobbs average 57.

 

Would Akram average 23 in Odis with two new balls?

 

All these arguments don’t really matter as a player is product of his era and there is no way to extrapolate his performance in any other era.

 

A legend in one would be a legend in another era.