Whether Virat Kohli overtook Sachin as the test batsmen ??

[Lord]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

 

I am trying my best to see your point here but still unable to find a proper proof of Tendulkar's big match temperament.

 

I would reply in two parts -

 

 

1996 QF vs Pak - 30 odd

1996 SF vs SL - great knock against SL

2003 SF vs Kenya - 83 against Kenya

2003 F vs Aus - Failed

2011 QF vs Aus - 50 odd

2011 SF vs Pak - 80 odd

2011 F vs SL - Failed

 

Now lets talk about this list - 

 

 

Why are you counting that 80 odd vs Pakistan as a good innings, getting dropped 4 times to end up with 80 doesn't count as a good innings in my view, apart from it he has a 83 vs Minnows Kenya where Ganguly scored a century, if you are not counting kOhlis innings vs SRL in CT semis or his innings vs Ban in ct 17 then I don't see why you are counting that innings vs Kenya.

 

31(59) odd runs in QF vs Pak, I would ignore that as a joke. Wasn't even the fourth best innings from India. Should be counted as a failure.

 

The only two good knocks he could come up with are : support knock of 50 vs Aus in 2011 QF and 65(88) vs SRL in semis of 96. While both these knocks are decent there is absolutely nothing spectacular about them, how and why do you think these two decent knocks put Sachin over Kohli in KOs of world cup. Kohli's 117(113) in semis of 2023 is vastly superior to both these knocks. I remember how people were praising Kane for that 69(73) in the same match, Kohli played better than him and was one of the reason we were stable throughout the innings. Similarly kohlis 35(49) was a decent knock, we would have been in dire straits if not for that knock, and then the 55(63) in 2023 finals.

Please convince me of how Sachins list of knocks in WC KO's is better, I am open to change my mind.

 

 

Also another point, even if you think Sachin's list is better, do you think the difference is so clear that you can be 100% sure of him being a better pressure match player?

 

 

Just for the bolded part, Kane's knock was rated purely because it was a huge chase. Kohli's knock wasn't even best from our side. Iyer did better easily.

 

Kohli is perhaps the greatest chaser, but on big occasions in ODIs hes come up short most times, whether its 2015 semi, 2019 semi, 2017 CT Finals

[Adamant]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Just for the bolded part, Kane's knock was rated purely because it was a huge chase. Kohli's knock wasn't even best from our side. Iyer did better easily.

 

Kohli is perhaps the greatest chaser, but on big occasions in ODIs hes come up short most times, whether its 2015 semi, 2019 semi, 2017 CT Finals

Yes, Kohlis knock was the second best from our side and was rated the same by cricinfo.

 

Still it was a century that helped us to win the semifinals.

[Rasgulla]

Odis and t20s yes 

 

tests he is going down and downnnn

[Suhaan]

On 1/14/2025 at 5:38 PM, Adamant said:

Yes, Kohlis knock was the second best from our side and was rated the same by cricinfo.

 

Still it was a century that helped us to win the semifinals.

Yes

If not for Iyer and dare I say Kela's cameo at the end ,we would have been again humiliated by kiwis in the SFs

Edited January 16 by Suhaan

[Texan]

Kohli is more like Azharuddin level Test cricketer. Not even VVS Laxman level. Soon he will get to Vishwanath / Vengsarkar level.

[Ultimate_Game]

12 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

Odis and t20s yes 

 

tests he is going down and downnnn

 

T20s - ATG from 2013 to 2016, especially WT20 in 2014 and 2016. After that he was decent till 2018-19 but quite average since then.

 

ODIs - Beast in bilaterals but pretty average in ICC tourneys. Doesn't have one iconic innings in a ODI WC like Tendulkar's 98 against Pak or Rohit's 140 against Pak. His best was always as a supporting role in ODI WCs and even when he was at his peak in 2015, 2017 and 2019 he failed in big matches.

 

Tests - A pretty average batter. Had a purple patch from 2015 to 2019, and pretty poor outside of that period. A couple of levels below when compared to his compatriots like Smith and Root, and even a level below Williamson.

 

Overall, he has flattered to deceive. His best innings was the T20 knock against Aus in WT20 2016 followed by the MCG knock against Pak in 2022 WT20. In ODIs his best came in bilaterals especially that home series against Aus in 2013 (or 2014) where he chased 300+ a few times. And probably his best two knocks were Asia Cup knock against Pak in 2012 and SL in a tri-series. Pity he couldn't do anything close to that in ICC tourneys. In Tests he was a non-factor. He couldn't influence a single match away from home, and at home it never really mattered given we had Ashwin and Jadeja from 2012 onwards.

Edited January 16 by Ultimate_Game

[Rasgulla]

59 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

T20s - ATG from 2013 to 2016, especially WT20 in 2014 and 2016. After that he was decent till 2018-19 but quite average since then.

 

ODIs - Beast in bilaterals but pretty average in ICC tourneys. Doesn't have one iconic innings in a ODI WC like Tendulkar's 98 against Pak or Rohit's 140 against Pak. His best was always as a supporting role in ODI WCs and even when he was at his peak in 2015, 2017 and 2019 he failed in big matches.

 

Tests - A pretty average batter. Had a purple patch from 2014 to 2019, and pretty poor outside of that period. A couple of levels below when compared to his compatriots like Smith and Root, and even a level below Williamson.

 

Overall, he has flattered to deceive. His best innings was the T20 knock against Aus in WT20 2016 followed by the MCG knock against Pak in 2022 WT20. In ODIs his best came in bilaterals especially that home series against Aus in 2013 (or 2014) where he chased 300+ a few times. And probably his best two knocks were Asia Cup knock against Pak in 2012 and SL in a tri-series. Pity he couldn't do anything close to that in ICC tourneys. In Tests he was a non-factor. He couldn't influence a single match away from home, and at home it never really mattered given we had Ashwin and Jadeja from 2012 onwards.

This is how I see it 

 

T20 - player of the tournament 2 times 2014 and 2016! And man of the match in the finals of wc we won. Overall he is is a GOAT t20 player 

 

ODi- averages 56 in almost 300 Odis with a WC trophy to his name and he has player of tournament for last World Cup and man of the match for CT2013 finals too. GOAT odi player

 

Test - meh lately been an absolute disappointment 

[vvvslaxman]

Most classy players find another peak.  If you look at Tendulkar he has an unique consistency.  

 

1990s - 58 avge

2000s - 54 avge

2010s - 50 avge

 

In each decade he averaged 50 plus. 

 

If you look at KOhli

 

2010s - 54 avge

2020s - 30 avge

 

Kohli was fortunate to play so many tests at his peak. That is why hsi lack of consistency outside his peak is still not hurting so bad.

 

From dec'2014 (adelaide test) - Nov'2019  Kohi played 55 tests in 5 overs. 11 tests per year at his peak. Sachin played 8 tests per year at his peak. 

 

 

 

Edited January 16 by vvvslaxman

[R!TTER]

On 1/14/2025 at 5:38 PM, Adamant said:

Yes, Kohlis knock was the second best from our side and was rated the same by cricinfo.

Fourth best, Gill/RGS all batted better! *er was more concerned about his 50th ton in a WC SF game, but you call SRT selfish  

[Number]

14 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Fourth best, Gill/RGS all batted better! *er was more concerned about his 50th ton in a WC SF game, but you call SRT selfish  

I think Gill's knock was the best. He started to attack in the middle overs and by the time he retired NZ were totally deflated. 

[Adamant]

15 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Fourth best, Gill/RGS all batted better! *er was more concerned about his 50th ton in a WC SF game, but you call SRT selfish  

No espn rates it as second best too, your rabid hate doesn’t count for much.

[R!TTER]

9 minutes ago, Adamant said:

No espn rates it as second best too, your rabid hate doesn’t count for much.

No one *in cares what ESPN thinks; ESPN isn't even available in India! I watched the game, and Brat was officially MS 3.0 in that game especially with his obsession with the ton; if Iyer didn't score that 100, we would have scored well below par on that pitch  

[Adamant]

22 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

No one *in cares what ESPN thinks; ESPN isn't even available in India! I watched the game, and Brat was officially MS 3.0 in that game especially with his obsession with the ton; if Iyer didn't score that 100, we would have scored well below par on that pitch  

But Iyer was scoring, and Kohli was there on the field and batting according to the circumstances and the role he was given.

 

390 odd has never been chased.

[singhvivek141]

4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Most classy players find another peak.  If you look at Gavaskar he has an unique consistency.  

 

1990s - 58 avge

2000s - 54 avge

2010s - 50 avge

 

In each decade he averaged 50 plus. 

 

If you look at KOhli

 

2010s - 54 avge

2020s - 30 avge

 

Kohli was fortunate to play so many tests at his peak. That is why hsi lack of consistency outside his peak is still not hurting so bad.

 

From dec'2014 (adelaide test) - Nov'2019  Kohi played 55 tests in 5 overs. 11 tests per year at his peak. Sachin played 8 tests per year at his peak. 

 

I guess you meant Tendulkar.

 

You're right about multiple peaks...during 2004-06, when he was struggling with tennis elbow..many discarded him in reality. That was the time when Yuvraj, MSD, Raina etc were entering the scene and took the world by storm with their breathtaking strokeplay.

Sachin worked hard on his technique and developed many other shots that can help him play effectively with that weakness. 

[vvvslaxman]

9 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

T20s - ATG from 2013 to 2016, especially WT20 in 2014 and 2016. After that he was decent till 2018-19 but quite average since then.

 

ODIs - Beast in bilaterals but pretty average in ICC tourneys. Doesn't have one iconic innings in a ODI WC like Tendulkar's 98 against Pak or Rohit's 140 against Pak. His best was always as a supporting role in ODI WCs and even when he was at his peak in 2015, 2017 and 2019 he failed in big matches.

 

Tests - A pretty average batter. Had a purple patch from 2014 to 2019, and pretty poor outside of that period. A couple of levels below when compared to his compatriots like Smith and Root, and even a level below Williamson.

 

Overall, he has flattered to deceive. His best innings was the T20 knock against Aus in WT20 2016 followed by the MCG knock against Pak in 2022 WT20. In ODIs his best came in bilaterals especially that home series against Aus in 2013 (or 2014) where he chased 300+ a few times. And probably his best two knocks were Asia Cup knock against Pak in 2012 and SL in a tri-series. Pity he couldn't do anything close to that in ICC tourneys. In Tests he was a non-factor. He couldn't influence a single match away from home, and at home it never really mattered given we had Ashwin and Jadeja from 2012 onwards.

 

 

2014 adelaide test (started in decmeber) to  2019 end. So 2015/2016/2017/2018/2019 - peak

 

outside peak

 

58 tests 120 innings 7 not outs 3883 runs  33.92 avge 10 centuries

 

 

That is KL Rahul level. 

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

You're right about multiple peaks...during 2004-06, when he was struggling with tennis elbow..many discarded him in reality.

The downfall, if you remember, was only really between 05-06, and even there he missed an easy tour of WI (tests) to stat pad. He also missed the Zim tour just towards the end of 2005 as well.

[Ultimate_Game]

9 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

This is how I see it 

 

T20 - player of the tournament 2 times 2014 and 2016! And man of the match in the finals of wc we won. Overall he is is a GOAT t20 player 

 

ODi- averages 56 in almost 300 Odis with a WC trophy to his name and he has player of tournament for last World Cup and man of the match for CT2013 finals too. GOAT odi player

 

Test - meh lately been an absolute disappointment 

 

I wouldn't call him GOAT in ODIS though. Good ODI player but not GOAT. He couldn't do much in high stakes matches and he had plenty of opportunities. GOAT in T20Is, Good in ODIs and Average in Tests. That's how I see it.

[singhvivek141]

29 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

The downfall, if you remember, was only really between 05-06, and even there he missed an easy tour of WI (tests) to stat pad. He also missed the Zim tour just towards the end of 2005 as well.

Yeah, mostly 05-06...I think he missed some games in 04 as well due to the tennis elbow injury. 05-06 were his transition period coz he had to reinvent his game.

[Texan]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

2014 adelaide test (started in decmeber) to  2019 end. So 2015/2016/2017/2018/2019 - peak

 

outside peak

 

58 tests 120 innings 7 not outs 3883 runs  33.92 avge 10 centuries

 

 

That is KL Rahul level. 

Plus you add the weakness in ball bowled outside off-stump, it is like Suresh Raina level weakness. Even KL Rahul doesn't have such an obvious weakness that anyone can exploit. Worst part is that it got exposed back in 2014 and same weakness seen in 2024, meaning that he never really learned anything during those years. During his peak years, he got some good flat tracks to score runs, which he did accomplish better than his peers to his credit.

[Number]

I don't know if Sachin was given such beating in mainstream media ever. This is utter violation lol.