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Whether Virat Kohli overtook Sachin as the test batsmen ??


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In tests , whether Virat Kohli surpassed Sachin as a batsmen ?  

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  1. 1. In tests , whether Virat Kohli surpassed Sachin as a batsmen ?

    • Yes
      20
    • No
      58
    • Not there yet
      36


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On 1/16/2025 at 2:54 PM, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I wouldn't call him GOAT in ODIS though. Good ODI player but not GOAT. He couldn't do much in high stakes matches and he had plenty of opportunities. GOAT in T20Is, Good in ODIs and Average in Tests. That's how I see it.

Who average OVER 55 in 300 games ? He has WC to his name with Man of the tournament and a CT final win and finals man of the match.

 

If he isn’t ODI goat then there isn’t one lol

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2 hours ago, New guy said:

Yeah but sentiments have definitely changed recently, even reddit, quora, twitter etc which just used to be praise and PR have turned against him.

Against whom?Kohli kapooroshachhan?

Edited by Suhaan
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10 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

Who average OVER 55 in 300 games ? He has WC to his name with Man of the tournament and a CT final win and finals man of the match.

 

If he isn’t ODI goat then there isn’t one lol

 

GOAT has to make a difference in the big tourneys. Has Kohli ever done so? Was any team scared of Kohli in ICC knockouts? He won the WC coz he was part of the team in 2011. It was Yuvraj and Zaheer who were the standout performers, and Gambhir and Dhoni showed up in the final.

 

In 2013 CT, Jadeja and Ashwin snatched an impossible win while defending a below par 129. 2024 WT20 was more of the same with Bumrah supported by Pandya, Arshdeep and Axar making the difference.

 

Kohli has at best played a supporting role. His 55+ average (60+ at one point) and all his 100s in chases and bilaterals went missing in the big matches. If you bring out his T20 innings from 2014 and 2016, then someone like Marlon Samuels has trumped him by playing equally better innings and that too in the finals. And he did it twice! Yet nobody calls Marlon Samuels a GOAT or King.

 

Show me one ICC knockout match where Kohli was the main player and took the game by the scruff of its neck? Not the support or second fiddle innings but one where the supposed GOAT actually played like a GOAT and won the match for his team? I can't find even one. All I recall are his failures in 2015 WC SF, 2017 CT Final, and 2019 WC SF no-show.

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11 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

Who average OVER 55 in 300 games ? He has WC to his name with Man of the tournament and a CT final win and finals man of the match.

 

If he isn’t ODI goat then there isn’t one lol

 

Regarding the GOAT, I consider Viv Richards as the GOAT. He was the difference maker in 2 WC finals - in 1975 with his fielding alone with 5 runouts! And in 79 WC where he scored that 100. Nobody has topped Viv in ODIs.

 

In fact I would rate Gilchrist ahead of Kohli coz Gilchrist actually showed up in big games. He was a difference maker and showed up in big games. Check out his record in the finals and you'll be amazed!

 

Forget Viv or Gilchrist, even someone like Head has had more impact on bigger occasions than the so called "King" Kohli. Head has showed up in ODI WC, WTC Final, the high profile Test series in Aus etc. Kohli hasn't even had an  impact like Aravinda De Silva in 96 WC. Aravinda won the SF and Final on his own! That's what a GOAT should be doing.

 

Does Kohli even has a single tourney or innings in a big match similar to Viv or Gilchrist or Aravinda? How can you be the GOAT when you shrivelled on the big stage? If he had showed up big even in one ICC ODI tourney - 2015, 2017, 2019 or even 2023 Final, I would be fine. But every time he failed to do so and others trumped him. How can you be a GOAT by being so ordinary on the big stage? It would be akin to Kohli calling him the GOAT in IPL when he has Mandeep Singh like numbers in IPL playoffs. Fact is you can't be a GOAT unless you show up in big moments.

 

Tom Brady took the GOAT mantle from Joe Montana by winning 7 SBs. And Patrick Mahomes is bringing his name into the discussion coz he has won 3 already and has a chance to win 3 straight SBs! Gretzky is the GOAT in NHL as much for his stats as for his showing up in big games. Kohli has none and compare him to GOATs across sports makes it apparent. GOATs are supposed to be heads and shoulders above their counterparts. Kohli hasn't even outshone his peers and other batters who've had much bigger moments than Kohli. If Kohli had not been born in India, he probably would've been kicked out by his team a few years ago and he would be remembered as a rich man's Babar Azam - probably similar to Hashim Amla.

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On 1/16/2025 at 5:23 AM, singhvivek141 said:

I guess you meant Tendulkar.

 

You're right about multiple peaks...during 2004-06, when he was struggling with tennis elbow..many discarded him in reality. That was the time when Yuvraj, MSD, Raina etc were entering the scene and took the world by storm with their breathtaking strokeplay.

Sachin worked hard on his technique and developed many other shots that can help him play effectively with that weakness. 

 

This is also the period when the pitches around the world got flatter - around 2003/4 to 2010/11 were the era of flat pitches, as most of the world still retained their strong batting lineups of Lara,Chanderpaul, Inzamam, Kallis, Waugh brothers etc. but around 2002 is when Ambrose, Walsh,Akram,Waqar, Donald all retired and most of these teams were severely impacted in bowling ( Even south africa to a degree since it took a few years for Steyn to get up and running to replace Donald and in the intervening period the likes of Ntini, Hayward, etc. were simply not that good, so even Saffies put out flatties vs Australia and England for eg).

So this made everyone look better than they were - for every big batter of the 90s & 2000s who played in both the decades, average significantly better in the 2000s than in the 90s: Steve Waugh, Inzamam, Lara, Chanderpaul, Kallis, Dravid, Hayden, VVS, Youhana, Ponting, etc- all of them averaged higher in the 2000s than in the 90s. Except for Sachin. Who had a string of injury issues in the 2000s - people remember his tennis elbow of 2004-7 period because he talked about it, but he also had some serious back injuries in the early 2000s is why he also stopped bowling around the same time as well - especially in tests, where tendy routinely served as a reliable dude who could bowl 10-15 overs an innings and that went to 0.


Most people who argue the whole BS of 'tendy is a compiler, not a destroyer/dominator, he is just super durable for having debuted so young and playing till almost 40' are the people who mostly saw him in this period - 2002/2003 to the end.

 

And yes, Tendy doesnt look generational in the 2003- 2013 period. But this is tendy of post elbow injury, post back injury and tendy of 'no cover drives/permanently reduced cover driving' and more of a strike rotator guy coz of his partnership with Sehwag and being first time in his career not the upper order designated destroyer/dominator.

 

People forget how dominant Tendulkar was in the 90s despite playing so little tests in the 90s. From around 93 to 2002, he was a cut above the rest, he did for those 10 years effectively what steve smith did for only 5 - remain consistently the #1 or #2 guy for runs scored every year, day in/day out at a crazy average.

 

He was so much better in this period - IIRC he averaged like 65+ in this 10 year period with 25+centuries and matching record of 4 years of 1000+ runs in test cricket while playing so little - that every single player of THAT time, including Brian Lara himself said something like 'we are all playing kirkut, sachin is playing something else, he is numero uno we only start talking of numero duo'.

 

This is because not only did Sachin compile crazy stats in tests, he ALSO did it in One dayers - that too was super duper rare back then : Steve Waugh was a great test bat but very mediocre in ODI as a batter, Mark Waugh was the exact opposite - excellent/ODI great but test mediocre dude with the bat. Pretty much only Inzy,Sachin & Lara were the three 'great in tests, great in ODIs'  batter till the emergence of Ponting (Kallis, like Dravid, never got to be the sachin-inzy-ponting-lara-sehwag level dude in both formats due to strike rate issues). And of them, Sachin was such a cut above in BOTH formats to everyone that it was a crazy gap.
All the while, being the guy with by far the weakest bowling lineup to back up the batting with, of his peers - coz all of his batting challengers are Aussie/Pakistani/West Indian of that period, all of whom have far superior bowling lineup to take heat off of the batting.

 

His one man army-giri of the 90s is often forgotten, because a lot of the times the team didnt win and tests those days were easy draws even if 1 day was washed out coz batters didnt suck at defending the **** outta the ball and ticking over ones and twos here and there like today and teams, especially Indian team, often chose that option in overseas tours and people forget these series easily.

 

The Phenom that Sachin was in the 90s is difficult to overstate : leading run scorer, leading century maker by a huge margin - Lara for all his amazing innings vs Aussies in the 90s or his humongous triple and near triple, was around 12--15 centuries and a solid 10 less than tendy with more innings played for eg. 
And that too in both formats, coz in around the same period, no one came even close to Sachu in just piling on the runs and scoring centuries in ODIs and doing all this at around 90 strike rate - which is crazy for the 90s era ( His early career strike rate is in the high 60s coz well, Sachu didnt figure out ODI batting till he got older- same reason why he didnt score a century till his 70th or 75th game or something people forget lol ).

 

This phenom guy basically became one of the gods in the Greek level pantheon type batter, where suddenly the likes of lara,Dravid,Kallis,Ponting,Laxman,Hayden, Sehwag, etc. outshone him for extended periods and he never quite got back to being a cut above the rest, till like his 2nd reneissance two seasons, where he showed what true accumulator looks like and scored like 12 centuries and 2000 runs to remind us of his days fo the 90s, though with less destructive fanfare of the 90s.

 

 

What marks Sachin out from Kohli, is that Sachin was a far greater professional than Kohli and deserves far more respect for this reason alone. For the man never stopped doing the khoon-paseena routine for the game and actually EARNING his keep via effort and professionalism and not just relying on his boy genius name + talunt to coast like King Kohli has done for half a decade - something Sachu of all people could've EASILY done since his elbow injuries and back/toe injuries.


But no, he never stopped working, he never stopped giving izzat to the game and giving it his all and did it for nearly a quarter century before he realized its no longer good enough and promptly quit after having Kohli-esque failure for 2 and half years. But never did he stop giving it his khoon paseena and skipping out on doing the grind for the formats he still kept playing in. And we know this, because Sachu never again went pyscho with 'i cover drive anything short and wide on off stump and it looks like bradman himself did it' with his batting after the 2003 disaster in Australia - he brought it back but was a much more methodical user of it but he compensated for it by inventing other shots into his arsenal- such as the ramp over slips, the paddle sweep, etc. to keep his scoring options wide and not become restricted in his late career like Kohli has been. This is due to khoon paseena hard work, which Kohli isnt doing coz well, Kohli is pretty much a gym-bro party dude who happens to bat as his main MO in life for the last 10 years or so and therefore, his game has stopped evolving since his mid 20s.

 

This alone, is sufficient to never ever compare Tendulkar to a Kohli. Kohli is the talunt who got high on his own koolaid - like Lara did at a time - and never got back to the hard work ( which Lara did, hence his reneissance in the 2000s) and has been fading out like a Ritche Richardson did.

 

So yes, there is a comparative to Kohli as far as test cricket goes from the 80s-90s era: A man who came in under tutelege of the OG great batters of West Indian great team ( much like Kohli did to Indian team), showed great potential, outmatched the OG great batters in the team as a young-in, took captaincy and then faded hard with the bat near the end of his career, till the point that he looked like a glorified tail ender with a bat and a name : Ritchie Richardson.

 

He is our Ritchie Richardson in test cricket. Yes, he is comparable/better than our Viv in the shorter format but as far as tests go, comparing Kohli to Sachu is like comparing Richardson to Viv/Lara.

Edited by Muloghonto
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On 1/18/2025 at 4:34 PM, Ultimate_Game said:

 

GOAT has to make a difference in the big tourneys. Has Kohli ever done so? Was any team scared of Kohli in ICC knockouts? He won the WC coz he was part of the team in 2011. It was Yuvraj and Zaheer who were the standout performers, and Gambhir and Dhoni showed up in the final.

 

In 2013 CT, Jadeja and Ashwin snatched an impossible win while defending a below par 129. 2024 WT20 was more of the same with Bumrah supported by Pandya, Arshdeep and Axar making the difference.

 

Kohli has at best played a supporting role. His 55+ average (60+ at one point) and all his 100s in chases and bilaterals went missing in the big matches. If you bring out his T20 innings from 2014 and 2016, then someone like Marlon Samuels has trumped him by playing equally better innings and that too in the finals. And he did it twice! Yet nobody calls Marlon Samuels a GOAT or King.

 

Show me one ICC knockout match where Kohli was the main player and took the game by the scruff of its neck? Not the support or second fiddle innings but one where the supposed GOAT actually played like a GOAT and won the match for his team? I can't find even one. All I recall are his failures in 2015 WC SF, 2017 CT Final, and 2019 WC SF no-show.

What is this cherry picking things “was anyone scared of him during knockouts” ? Whattt 

 

Teams are scared of him lol people have short memories here. He has a 100 in that WC and important knock at a very young age in that final. He was in that team because he is that good. 
 

He was the highest run scorer in CT 2013 final and last icc T20 WC final we won. He was  the man of the match aswell. You are name dropping everything but refuse to acknowledge the guy who won man of the match is very funny

 

Marlon Samuels isn’t player of the tournament 2 times in a row lol end of story 

 

show you a game ? Short memories lol 2014 wc he single handily dominated the whole wc. Go watch that SF against RSA. 
 

 

 

 

Edited by Rasgulla
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On 1/18/2025 at 4:49 PM, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Regarding the GOAT, I consider Viv Richards as the GOAT. He was the difference maker in 2 WC finals - in 1975 with his fielding alone with 5 runouts! And in 79 WC where he scored that 100. Nobody has topped Viv in ODIs.

 

In fact I would rate Gilchrist ahead of Kohli coz Gilchrist actually showed up in big games. He was a difference maker and showed up in big games. Check out his record in the finals and you'll be amazed!

 

Forget Viv or Gilchrist, even someone like Head has had more impact on bigger occasions than the so called "King" Kohli. Head has showed up in ODI WC, WTC Final, the high profile Test series in Aus etc. Kohli hasn't even had an  impact like Aravinda De Silva in 96 WC. Aravinda won the SF and Final on his own! That's what a GOAT should be doing.

 

Does Kohli even has a single tourney or innings in a big match similar to Viv or Gilchrist or Aravinda? How can you be the GOAT when you shrivelled on the big stage? If he had showed up big even in one ICC ODI tourney - 2015, 2017, 2019 or even 2023 Final, I would be fine. But every time he failed to do so and others trumped him. How can you be a GOAT by being so ordinary on the big stage? It would be akin to Kohli calling him the GOAT in IPL when he has Mandeep Singh like numbers in IPL playoffs. Fact is you can't be a GOAT unless you show up in big moments.

 

Tom Brady took the GOAT mantle from Joe Montana by winning 7 SBs. And Patrick Mahomes is bringing his name into the discussion coz he has won 3 already and has a chance to win 3 straight SBs! Gretzky is the GOAT in NHL as much for his stats as for his showing up in big games. Kohli has none and compare him to GOATs across sports makes it apparent. GOATs are supposed to be heads and shoulders above their counterparts. Kohli hasn't even outshone his peers and other batters who've had much bigger moments than Kohli. If Kohli had not been born in India, he probably would've been kicked out by his team a few years ago and he would be remembered as a rich man's Babar Azam - probably similar to Hashim Amla.

If I go by your method That is a mighty WI and Aus team. Even without them those teams would have won.

 

against not my fault you only remember matches where we lost lol if he didn’t perform in 2013 2014 2016 2024 you would have added that to list aswell haha

 

That 2016 season of IPL kohli ll never be touched by anyone. Not his fault rest of the batting is impotent after him getting out lol

 

Don't ever compare cricket to nfl. That’s the funniest thing I have heard whole day.

 

whether you like it or not he is a ODI and T20 great. No one can touch his stats!  

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5 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

If I go by your method That is a mighty WI and Aus team. Even without them those teams would have won.

 

against not my fault you only remember matches where we lost lol if he didn’t perform in 2013 2014 2016 2024 you would have added that to list aswell haha

 

That 2016 season of IPL kohli ll never be touched by anyone. Not his fault rest of the batting is impotent after him getting out lol

 

Don't ever compare cricket to nfl. That’s the funniest thing I have heard whole day.

 

whether you like it or not he is a ODI and T20 great. No one can touch his stats!  

 

Stats - Yes, Impact - No. Especially in ODIs.

T20 Great - Yes, ODI Great - No.

 

In Tests he doesn't even enter the discussion. And remind me what he did in IPL playoffs in that season?

 

It's not about cricket, NFL or any other sport. The GOAT is decided based on performances at the biggest stage. Maradona and Pele were not feted for simply playing good football but for leading their teams to WC wins. Performing at the biggest stage matters. In Kohli's case he has consistently fallen short when the stakes were high.

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Kohli happened to have this unusual all format peak around mid 2010s.  ODIs, Tests, T20s, IPL. It propelled him to dizzy heights. This is exactly how  Babar cult started when he entered top 10 ranking in all 3 formats. They had enough videos, stats to do their PR work for a few years. 

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On 1/20/2025 at 5:19 PM, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Stats - Yes, Impact - No. Especially in ODIs.

T20 Great - Yes, ODI Great - No.

 

In Tests he doesn't even enter the discussion. And remind me what he did in IPL playoffs in that season?

 

It's not about cricket, NFL or any other sport. The GOAT is decided based on performances at the biggest stage. Maradona and Pele were not feted for simply playing good football but for leading their teams to WC wins. Performing at the biggest stage matters. In Kohli's case he has consistently fallen short when the stakes were high.

Remember what ?looks like you are forgetting here.  Mate he scored 54(35) balls in finals of that 2016 how is that any bad for opener lol he did his job

 

you can’t compare sports man. There are 7 finals in NBA, if you lost a game you can still recover. That’s not the case in some sports. Marodona same fraud who used his hand to score ? You might as well back sandpaper Aussies at this point 

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