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Jinnah did more harm than good for Muslims..


Temujin Khaghan

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The Hindoos wouldn’t have to worry about the islamic cult if they got their act together, shun superstition, embrace science and collectively build a better country. But they are too busy protecting cows more than humans, interfering in others life by telling them who to marry/what to eat, and marketing gau mutra/dung cakes as the solution to every problem. The dumbest people IMHO out of the 3 major religions 

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12 hours ago, PBN said:

what's the source for the 55-45% economy distribution?

 

There's a reason Punjab was called the Bread basket of India.

 

a little old quote but drives across the message

"With just 1.5 per cent of India's land area, Punjab produces 20 per cent of the country's wheat and 12 per cent of its rice. It provides 60 per cent of the Central government's reserve stocks of wheat and 40 per cent of its reserves of rice, the country's buffer against starvation. Punjab's amazing productivity made it possible for India to feed most of its growing population that tripled from 350 million when the country became independent in 1947 to more than 1.2 billion people today."
- Mira Kamdar

 

 

Yes, this is true post green revolution, as green revolution + irrigation in Punjab has made Punjab hugely productive. However, as a matter of history, Punjab has not had irrigation since Indus valley, all the way till less than 150 years ago. This is a matter of history- we have Mughal chauth records dating back to Akbar all the way to after Aurangzeb. Of all the provinces, Bengal subah produced by far the greatest chauth. 

 

What Punjab has done in the last 100 years is largely irrelevant to the point that Punjab's importance to the Mughals were far more strategic than of material value. 

Edited by Muloghonto
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19 hours ago, Singh bling said:

The disparity ratio per capita GDP of West Pakistan to East Pakistan  was 1.6 in 1971.Its population was 45% So West Pakistan Economy was bigger than East Pakistan

we are not talking wealth distribution but productivity. In terms of GDP, Bangladesh generated greater GDP and especially Forex than Pakistan did. This is because Pakistan's biggest export commodity till 1971 was jute and Bengal utterly dominates in Jute production, especially Bangladesh.

 

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13 hours ago, PBN said:

As for the topic, it's a win win for Jinnah and Muslims.  Two majority muslim countries in Pakistan and Bangladesh and still a strong muslim population in the 3rd country of India.

You hit the nail on the head. Bangladesh had a sizeable Hindu population post partition but that is dwindling.

 

I just don't understand the mentality of Hindus. They in fact even promote Islam in Bollywood movies these days.

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On 5/30/2018 at 5:06 AM, Muloghonto said:

Yes, this is true post green revolution, as green revolution + irrigation in Punjab has made Punjab hugely productive. However, as a matter of history, Punjab has not had irrigation since Indus valley, all the way till less than 150 years ago. This is a matter of history- we have Mughal chauth records dating back to Akbar all the way to after Aurangzeb. Of all the provinces, Bengal subah produced by far the greatest chauth. 

 

What Punjab has done in the last 100 years is largely irrelevant to the point that Punjab's importance to the Mughals were far more strategic than of material value. 

Regarding Irrigation:

To say there’s been no irrigation in Punjab would be grossly inaccurate.   There’s been mention of various forms of irrigation techniques in Punjab from different sources.  The most widely used being the pulley wheel system i.e the water wheel/Persian wheel.  Sources mention such irrigation methods in Rigveda and the works of Panini also mention irrigation methods around the rivers of Punjab.. likely in the form of early forms of Inundation canals.   Even discarding those ancient sources, there’s definite mention of the water wheels for irrigation  in Punjab around  15th or 16th century if not earlier  for small scale cultivation.    While they have been replaced with modern  tubewell electric pump system now, you can even see some old ones remaining even today in Punjab.

 

Again, more sources mentions of inundation canals  and some form of early perennial canals during the Mughal period as well as during Ranjit Singh’s reign.  While the reason for these irrigation methods may have been for small scale cultivation or to irrigate the royal gardens, there’s  certainly evidence of irrigation methods in Punjab prior to the 150 years.

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31 minutes ago, PBN said:

Regarding Irrigation:

To say there’s been no irrigation in Punjab would be grossly inaccurate.   There’s been mention of various forms of irrigation techniques in Punjab from different sources.  The most widely used being the pulley wheel system i.e the water wheel/Persian wheel.  Sources mention such irrigation methods in Rigveda and the works of Panini also mention irrigation methods around the rivers of Punjab.. likely in the form of early forms of Inundation canals.   Even discarding those ancient sources, there’s definite mention of the water wheels for irrigation  in Punjab around  15th or 16th century if not earlier  for small scale cultivation.    While they have been replaced with modern  tubewell electric pump system now, you can even see some old ones remaining even today in Punjab.

No one knows how old the Rig Veda is. And even if Rig veda is true, it still does not change the fact that there has been no evidence of irrigation in Punjab from 300s BC till around 1600s AD. Persian wheel arrives around 1600s AD but massive irrigation canals like which we see in the ganges valley for 1500 years or so, does not appear in Punjab till 1800s AD.  We have Greek sources describing Punjab for eg and they specifically mention that the land is not irrigated. 

31 minutes ago, PBN said:

 

Again, more sources mentions of inundation canals  and some form of early perennial canals during the Mughal period as well as during Ranjit Singh’s reign.  While the reason for these irrigation methods may have been for small scale cultivation or to irrigate the royal gardens, there’s  certainly evidence of irrigation methods in Punjab prior to the 150 years.

we have no evidene whatsoever, for example, of the large scale irrigation canals dug by the Gurjaras & Palas in the ganges valley or massive rain-collection tanks built by them. This is reflected in the taxes collected by Mughals, where Punjab is a low tax revenue province due to its lack of productivity. 

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On 5/30/2018 at 2:40 PM, Muloghonto said:

we are not talking wealth distribution but productivity. In terms of GDP, Bangladesh generated greater GDP and especially Forex than Pakistan did. This is because Pakistan's biggest export commodity till 1971 was jute and Bengal utterly dominates in Jute production, especially Bangladesh.

 

How Bengal generated greater GDP? If per capita gdp of 45% population is 1.6 and 55% population is 1 then 45% population is generating more gdp than 55%.

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3 hours ago, Singh bling said:

How Bengal generated greater GDP? If per capita gdp of 45% population is 1.6 and 55% population is 1 then 45% population is generating more gdp than 55%.

Again, you are confusing GDP with wealth. If province 1 generates 60% of the nation's GDP and province 2 does 40%, but province 2 takes 60% of the national GDP, then wealth of province 2 will be greater, despite province 1 having greater GDP.

 

On paper, Pakistan had a greater GDP because the bulk majority of military and government spending was in Pakistan, not Bangladesh.

But in terms of GDP generated, Bangladesh generated greater GDP than Pakistan. It is especially relevant when it comes to FOREX, as Bangladesh earned the bulk majority of Pakistan's Forex, due to the fact that Pakistan's biggest FOREX earning item till 1971 was jute and Bangladesh produced 99% of jute.

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2 hours ago, rageaddict said:

An interesting thread about Jinnah and impact of Pakistan's creation on present day India turned into a useless Punjab v/s Bengal Agricultural output debate. 

muloghonchu always derails every thread he enters

Edited by kira
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Coming back to the original thread topic.

Few facts:

a) per capita income & education levels of muslims in India are below national average

b) per capita income & education levels of muslims in India are higher than in Pakistan

 

This leads to the whole conundrum of power : would you rather be upper class, in relative terms but poorer/less educated in absolute terms, or would you rather be a lower class in relative terms & more educated in absolute terms ? 

 

The answer to this question, determines if Jinnah did more harm than good for the Muslims. In Pakistan, the muslim elites have more power, but are less rich & educated than Indian muslims. 

 

India is also a much free-er society than Pakistan is- we don't kill people for dissing a prophet or an avatar, from the legally sanctioned POV. Yes, mobs in India can get super-charged and commit crimes against the person- same as in Pakistan or practically anywhere in the third world. But the KEY difference, is that Pakistan has state-sanctioned discrimination against religions (Ahmadiyyas for eg) and state sanctioned religious impositions (such as no open dissing of Mohammed). 

 

To me its a no-brainer and i think any NRI/Overseas-Pakistanis, if they have integrity enough, they'd agree that Jinnah disadvantaged the muslims. Because like NRIs and overseas Pakistanis, the Indian muslims lead higher quality of life in actual, real world parameters, even though they are not the social elites of the society.

 

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Jinnah,Nehru,Mountbatten were all culprits  in the partition of India

 

They all were equally responsible for one of the largest  human migration and probably the biggest acts of communal violence( on either side )in the history of mankind

 

Now technically that gets Jinnah only part of the blame 

 

However apparently the  Pakistanis and obviously Indians want to give/take all the credit as  Jinnah the architect for the partition 

 

Do the Pakistanis admit that  he gets the blame for all the violence and mass human displacement as well?

 

You can’t have it both ways.

 

Anyway my personal opinion Is all 3 are equally to blame.

Edited by maniac
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6 minutes ago, maniac said:

Jinnah,Nehru,Mountbatten were all culprits  in the partition of India

 

They all were responsible for one of the largest  human migration and probably the biggest acts of communal violence on either side in the history of mankind

 

Now technically that gets Jinnah only part of the blame 

 

However apparently the  Pakistanis want to give all the credit to Jinnah for the partition 

 

Do the Pakistanis admit that  he gets the blame for all the violence and mass human displacement as well?

 

You can’t have it both ways.

 

Anyway my personal opinion Is all 3 are equally to blame.

How are they all equally to blame ?

 

Gandhi was staunchly against partition- so how does a man get blamed for something he is against ?!?

Partition falls mostly on the Muslim League - not so much as Jinnah himself ( who was the facilitator more than the one who conceptualized it). But amongst the three, Jinnah clearly deserves most of the blame.

 

Nehru too did not really want partition as much as once he saw there was no living harmoniously with the muslim league ( the whole federated India was a nonsense concept that would've ripped India apart in the communist-capitalist struggle of USSR-USA. We'd have been another Congo in that aspect). 

He was in the 'partition is a foregone conclusion, so lets make the best of it for India' camp.

 

 

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On 5/29/2018 at 2:37 AM, panther said:

Harm for muslims of India not for those of what makes Pakistan now.

I know you are trolling, but no. Of all the places in the sub continent, India is the safest for Muslims. And also the place where Muslims actively look forward to a better future.

We're happy our grand parents chose India. Most of us wouldn't change that for anything in the world.

Edited by Mariyam
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Muslim ruled over Indian Hindus for almost 1000 years and Jinah anticipated of a backlash from Hindus once Brits would leave. Still he tried his best to mingle with Hindus and others in united India and was not in favor of partition earlier. But after 30 years of so he had no hope , hence worked for partition. What we're seeing now in Modi's India, particularly what happened in Delhi showed he was right. To be honest Pakistan did not turn out 100%  what Jinnah imagined but still Muslims in Pakistan are far happier than I guess Muslim in India in Modi's era.

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38 minutes ago, First class said:

Muslim ruled over Indian Hindus for almost 1000 years and Jinah anticipated of a backlash from Hindus once Brits would leave. Still he tried his best to mingle with Hindus and others in united India and was not in favor of partition earlier. But after 30 years of so he had no hope , hence worked for partition. What we're seeing now in Modi's India, particularly what happened in Delhi showed he was right. To be honest Pakistan did not turn out 100%  what Jinnah imagined but still Muslims in Pakistan are far happier than I guess Muslim in India in Modi's era.

Spoken like a true Jihadi turd. You *ing vermins killed more Muslims in 1971 than literally any other nation post WW2 and still have the cheek to post this bollocks here. 

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40 minutes ago, First class said:

Muslim ruled over Indian Hindus for almost 1000 years and Jinah anticipated of a backlash from Hindus once Brits would leave. Still he tried his best to mingle with Hindus and others in united India and was not in favor of partition earlier. But after 30 years of so he had no hope , hence worked for partition. What we're seeing now in Modi's India, particularly what happened in Delhi showed he was right. To be honest Pakistan did not turn out 100%  what Jinnah imagined but still Muslims in Pakistan are far happier than I guess Muslim in India in Modi's era.

Secular/Liberal India is all bullshit now with the likes of Modi. You have BJP's leaders openly calling out to "exchange" people on the basis of religion. 

 

It's good that partiton was made back then on way too many financial and non-financial grounds. 

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