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Shivam Dubey

Mosher

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Ankit_sharma03 Grand Master

Ankit_sharma03

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, prudent_kreeda said:

  Even to check if he is good , he needs to be in the eleven.  

  And he has a chance to be in eleven in matches played in SENA rather than in SC going by his bowling style.  

  As far AS WC 23 considered , India will go for  someone who a spinner rather than the military mediums like Dube, Shankar.  

   

yea thats what m saying he needs to be given a chance to see how good is he against them....even if he isnt it wud be goof for his evaluation

shankar anyways isnt an all rounder for me.....he is a batsman who can ball and that to his bowling wud be valuable in places like NZ n Eng only. 

 

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prudent_kreeda Rising Star

prudent_kreeda

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

2023 is a long way away and there is no saying what happens to Dube by then. He might fail and not even be in the conversation by 2023. But if he turns out to be good and so does Pandya, there's no reason why both can't play at No. 6/7 with two specialist spinners in the XI.

     No TM will go with 2 Spinners + 4 pace/medium pace  for WC in India . NO Way. 

      In fact a good TM will try to figure out who is their no.6 ( Better bat who can bowl some overs of decent spin)  to replace Kedar . The next 2-3 years will be testing phase for such guys .

For t20s  & SENA matches def. Dubey /Shankar should be on the radar.

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prudent_kreeda Rising Star

prudent_kreeda

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Dube and Pandya, if they're not in bad form by then.

       So on those slow , low  used pitches in WC ,selectors & TM will go for  2 pacers and 2 medium pacers  !!

       Lets just keep a tab , In how many  50 over matches in India from this date till Dec 2022 , India will go with 2 pacers + 2 medium pacers .

        Bet you , not even one .

       

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prudent_kreeda Rising Star

prudent_kreeda

Posted
Posted
On 9/8/2019 at 9:47 PM, express bowling said:

 

In ODIs in India, we have used 2 pacers + Hardik + 2 spinners for a long time now.

 

 

        Point was about both Hardik & Dube playing in indian pitches with 2 proper pacers + 2 spinners and possibility of going with such a 

        combination for WC 23 which will be in India .

       In the combination you have mentioned above they always used 6th part timer who is spinner. Yuvi, Raina , Kedar and not a military medium guy.  

 

  I do not see both Hardik & Dubey in the 11 as :- 

   1. Do not think we will be better off with #6 & #7  both are not your best pacers . In fact cannot expect Dubey to bowl even 3 overs in indian 

       conditions. 

    2. India always went with 6th bowler  who bowled few overs of spin. The condition of the pitch , after being used for the season will always

       favour  a spinner rather  than MM bowler.

   3. If Dubey cannot be sure of bowling then is he going to be considered only for his batting?  I think india has far better batsmen than him likes of         Gill , Iyer , KL  ahead of him.

     I am 110% sure   our 6th part time bowler will be   a spinner in SC rather than a pacer , hence selectors will try Rana, Axar, Jaddu , Vihari (??) , Hooda for that spot .      

      Rather than going with hardik & Dubey , it would be better to take a gamble and go with 2 pacers + 2 spinners + hardik (5 bowlers only) in some critical matches  with one additional pure batsman hoping everyone will bowl 10 overs . But that cannot  be the team most of the time unless Iyer somehow learns to bowl 3 overs of  half  decent spin. . 

 

 

  

   

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Vk1 Experienced

Vk1

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

        Point was about both Hardik & Dube playing in indian pitches with 2 proper pacers + 2 spinners and possibility of going with such a 

        combination for WC 23 which will be in India .

       In the combination you have mentioned above they always used 6th part timer who is spinner. Yuvi, Raina , Kedar and not a military medium guy.  

 

  I do not see both Hardik & Dubey in the 11 as :- 

   1. Do not think we will be better off with #6 & #7  both are not your best pacers . In fact cannot expect Dubey to bowl even 3 overs in indian 

       conditions. 

    2. India always went with 6th bowler  who bowled few overs of spin. The condition of the pitch , after being used for the season will always

       favour  a spinner rather  than MM bowler.

   3. If Dubey cannot be sure of bowling then is he going to be considered only for his batting?  I think india has far better batsmen than him likes of         Gill , Iyer , KL  ahead of him.

     I am 110% sure   our 6th part time bowler will be   a spinner in SC rather than a pacer , hence selectors will try Rana, Axar, Jaddu , Vihari (??) , Hooda for that spot .      

      Rather than going with hardik & Dubey , it would be better to take a gamble and go with 2 pacers + 2 spinners + hardik (5 bowlers only) in some critical matches  with one additional pure batsman hoping everyone will bowl 10 overs . But that cannot  be the team most of the time unless Iyer somehow learns to bowl 3 overs of  half  decent spin. . 

 

 

  

   

You are underestimating Dubeyji..

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Ankit_sharma03 Grand Master

Ankit_sharma03

Posted
Posted
On 9/7/2019 at 8:05 PM, prudent_kreeda said:

     No TM will go with 2 Spinners + 4 pace/medium pace  for WC in India . NO Way. 

      In fact a good TM will try to figure out who is their no.6 ( Better bat who can bowl some overs of decent spin)  to replace Kedar . The next 2-3 years will be testing phase for such guys .

For t20s  & SENA matches def. Dubey /Shankar should be on the radar.

 

5 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Not sure what the issue is if we have two attacking frontline spinners.

 

On 9/8/2019 at 6:04 PM, prudent_kreeda said:

       So on those slow , low  used pitches in WC ,selectors & TM will go for  2 pacers and 2 medium pacers  !!

       Lets just keep a tab , In how many  50 over matches in India from this date till Dec 2022 , India will go with 2 pacers + 2 medium pacers .

        Bet you , not even one .

       

In 2023, India might even go with 2 pacer + 3 spinner+ pandya. 

If jadeja batting keeps improving which has been the case in Last 1-2 yrs he can surely bat at 6 and be the 5th bowler making hardik the 6th one. Having options like sundar, gowtham, gopal might help this cause as they can bat as well and within 4 years if kuldeep keeps his place m sure his batting wud improve. 

3 spinner in 2023 can be lethal considering in WC 2nd half pitches start to turn a lot and jadeja becomes very dangeorus in such scenarios. 

 

In 2023 Wc, Spin bowling all rounder will play a huge role and luckily we have good options for that 

 

As far as seam all rounders like shankar n dubey is concerned .....they ll have to make it to the squad as batsman bowling being bonus 

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express bowling Grand Master

express bowling

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

        Point was about both Hardik & Dube playing in indian pitches with 2 proper pacers + 2 spinners and possibility of going with such a 

        combination for WC 23 which will be in India .

       In the combination you have mentioned above they always used 6th part timer who is spinner. Yuvi, Raina , Kedar and not a military medium guy.  

 

  I do not see both Hardik & Dubey in the 11 as :- 

   1. Do not think we will be better off with #6 & #7  both are not your best pacers . In fact cannot expect Dubey to bowl even 3 overs in indian 

       conditions. 

    2. India always went with 6th bowler  who bowled few overs of spin. The condition of the pitch , after being used for the season will always

       favour  a spinner rather  than MM bowler.

 

My point is  ... if the 6th bowler is someone who does not get to bowl in half the matches and bowls 3 to 5 overs when he gets the chance then how important is his bowling type ? 

 

Such a part timer does not really add value as either a pacer or a spinner ... but needs to send down a few decently economical overs if some bowler is having an off day. 

 

Let's take the case of our current 6th bowler Jadhav.

 

His overall ODI bowljng stats ...

 

-- Has not bowled in 40% of the matches he has played in.

-- Has bowled 2.9 overs per match.

-- Has bowled 4.8 overs per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has 0.66 wickets per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has a bowling average of 37

-- Has an ER of 5.13

 

Now, let's take his bowling stats in India

 

--  Has not bowled in 38% of the matches he has played in.

-- Has bowled 3.5 overs per match.

-- Has bowled 5.5 overs per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has 0.66 wickets per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has a bowling average of 46

-- Has an ER of 5.54.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/290716.html?class=2;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

So, we see that Jadhav, being a spinner, has increased his usage only marginally in ODIs in India while his performance has actually dropped in India.

 

Which is why I think that the bowler type of the 6th bowler is not important unless we can play a decent enough bowler like say Axar as the No.6 batsman ( and he is not a No.6 batsman yet ).

 

Hardik at 6, Axar at 7 maybe a good option in India though.

 

Quote

   3. If Dubey cannot be sure of bowling then is he going to be considered only for his batting?  I think india has far better batsmen than him likes of         Gill , Iyer , KL  ahead of him.

 

It depends on the batting position which is open.

Gill or Iyer can't be the No.6 or No.7 batter ... and those slots are ideal for Dube. 

 

And Dube can't be the No.4 or No.5 batter.

 

Quote

     I am 110% sure   our 6th part time bowler will be   a spinner in SC rather than a pacer , hence selectors will try Rana, Axar, Jaddu , Vihari (??) , Hooda for that spot .      

     

 

  

 

I feel that the choice of the 6th batsman cum 6th bowler should be based primarily on his big hitting ability ... and the ability to send down 5 decently economical overs if needed.

 

It should not be based on his bowling type. A Dube of mid 2019 adds much more value as a No.6 batsman who bowls a bit, than a Hooda of mid 2019 ... even if we are playing in India.

 

At best, Iyer should told to practice his bowling.

Edited by express bowling
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Vk1 Experienced

Vk1

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

My point is  ... if the 6th bowler is someone who does not get to bowl in half the matches and bowls 3 to 5 overs when he gets the chance then how important is his bowling type ? 

 

Such a part timer does not really add value as either a pacer or a spinner ... but needs to send down a few decently economical overs if some bowler is having an off day. 

 

Let's take the case of our current 6th bowler Jadhav.

 

His overall ODI bowljng stats ...

 

-- Has not bowled in 40% of the matches he has played in.

-- Has bowled 2.9 overs per match.

-- Has bowled 4.8 overs per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has 0.66 wickets per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has a bowling average of 37

-- Has an ER of 5.13

 

Now, let's take his bowling stats in India

 

--  Has not bowled in 38% of the matches he has played in.

-- Has bowled 3.5 overs per match.

-- Has bowled 5.5 overs per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has 0.66 wickets per innings he has actually bowled in.

-- Has a bowling average of 46

-- Has an ER of 5.54.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/290716.html?class=2;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

So, we see that Jadhav, being a spinner, has increased his usage only marginally in ODIs in India while his performance has actually dropped in India.

 

Which is why I think that the bowler type of the 6th bowler is not important unless we can play a decent enough bowler like say Axar as the No.6 batsman ( and he is not a No.6 batsman yet ).

 

Hardik at 6, Axar at 7 maybe a good option in India though.

 

 

It depends on the batting position which is open.

Gill or Iyer can't be the No.6 or No.7 batter ... and those slots are ideal for Dube. 

 

And Dube can't be the No.4 or No.5 batter.

 

 

I feel that the choice of the 6th batsman cum 6th bowler should be based primarily on his big hitting ability ... and the ability to send down 5 decently economical overs if needed.

 

It should not be based on his bowling type. A Dube of mid 2019 adds much more value as a No.6 batsman who bowls a bit, than a Hooda of mid 2019 ... even if we are playing in India.

 

At best, Iyer should told to practice his bowling.

Moreover a regular 6th bowler usually bowls after powerplay and with lots of cushion like immediately after a wicket falls to squeeze in couple of overs.. Jadhav's bowling in English conditons was always going to be a huge gamble and it turned out to be an utter flop. Dube or Vijay Shankar could have done better on that cloudy fateful day..

 

 

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Amit228 Apprentice

Amit228

Posted
Posted (edited)

Dube is an million times incremental upgrade over a 34 yr old midget jhadhav who for all his prowess can't even clear 30 yrd circle.. heck even Bangladesh would put our no 5, 6 to shame!! With ball eater thala nd midget jhadhav we can't even win trivial competitions.. let alone winning worldcup.. 

However the tribulations is even after costing india a world cup.. those Muppets at helm are still making merry ..at cost of India's detriments... it won't be surprising if we again see a second incarnation of lord thala with his awfully incredibly lunges galore.. nd with midget jhadhav continuing to be as futile as it can get... Seriously sorry state of affairs...

 

What we need is a dube like hitter at no 6.. he was at ease with such extreme pace of South Africa A bowlers.. he disdainfully dispatched nortje all around the park.. has a solid base a la yuvraj!!.. nd more importantly he doesn't hack.. rather he has power behind his shots nd times it well..  i hv also Watched his 70's odds runs innings against west Indies A.. looks benign to eyes nvr leaves impression of a bottler .. rather has an intimidating presence in crease with confidence oozing out!! These are attributes associated to good nd great players a la virat, hardik, rohit, bumrah et al.. not like jhadhav, kl, rayudu nd co who behaves like a deer in headlights!! 

Hope sanity prevails or else we will keep on clutching at straws rather then winning worldcups..

5.Pant 6.dube 7.hardik would be an ideal choice for next year t20 worldcup nd coming ODI series

 

Edited by Amit228
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TNAmarkFromIndia Enthusiast

TNAmarkFromIndia

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

           3. If Dubey cannot be sure of bowling then is he going to be considered only for his batting?  I think india has far better batsmen than him likes of         Gill , Iyer , KL  ahead of him.

KL's form is in question and Gill doesn't have the big hitting game to play in the middle order. Iyer would make a good No. 4 but 5, 6, 7? Needs some big hitters and Dube, Pandya and Pant/Kishan could factor in that.

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TNAmarkFromIndia Enthusiast

TNAmarkFromIndia

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Gill can be an ideal No.4.  He is s natural stroke-player, can rotate strike, can hit big shots too but not on demand. ( which is why he can't bat at No.6 or No.7 )

The skills that you mentioned are more suited for a No. 3. I don't think Gill playing at his regular pace can score quicker than Kohli playing at his regular pace, which is why it makes no sense to me that Gill would play below Kohli. A No. 4 should be able to up the momentum in the middle overs and then notch it up to 5th/6th gear approaching the death, and that's not Gill's game. I'm not saying he'd do badly at it, just that he's not suited for it as compared to someone like Iyer.

 

I see it more suited to Gill to be playing at No. 3 with Kohli batting after him at 4, but that's a move I think most here would disagree with, even though I think Kohli's skillsets make him the perfect No. 4.

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express bowling Grand Master

express bowling

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

The skills that you mentioned are more suited for a No. 3. I don't think Gill playing at his regular pace can score quicker than Kohli playing at his regular pace, which is why it makes no sense to me that Gill would play below Kohli. A No. 4 should be able to up the momentum in the middle overs and then notch it up to 5th/6th gear approaching the death, and that's not Gill's game. I'm not saying he'd do badly at it, just that he's not suited for it as compared to someone like Iyer.

 

I see it more suited to Gill to be playing at No. 3 with Kohli batting after him at 4, but that's a move I think most here would disagree with, even though I think Kohli's skillsets make him the perfect No. 4.

 

Gill can up the ante in the middle overs. I have seen it. His only shortcoming is batting in the last 5 overs.

 

Iyer maybe can bat at either 4 or 5.  But I like the solidity of Gill at 4. 

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TNAmarkFromIndia Enthusiast

TNAmarkFromIndia

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Gill can up the ante in the middle overs. I have seen it.

The thing is what you have seen of him in the middle overs is mostly when he was opening the innings and is already set by then. That's different than coming in at the crease in the middle overs and immediately getting the scoreboard running with your partner at the other end.

 

Again, top order and No. 4 require unique skillsets. At No. 4, we need someone who's naturally more attacking tham Kohli, not less.

Edited by TNAmarkFromIndia
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express bowling Grand Master

express bowling

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

The thing is what you have seen of him in the middle overs is mostly when he was opening the innings and is already set by then. That's different than coming in at the crease in the middle overs and immediately getting the scoreboard running with your partner at the other end.

 

Again, top order and No. 4 require unique skillsets. At No. 4, we need someone who's naturally more attacking tham Kohli, not less.

 

Gill is actually way more attacking than Kohli. His FC SR of 76 is partial reflection of that.

 

His only shortcoming, which may also be his strength, is that he can't slog on demand.

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