Jump to content
vayuu1

Modi government likely to bring bill to prevent religious conversion in next Parliament session

Recommended Posts

@Muloghonto

 

The Government of India has set up the Waqf board, a statutory body for the upkeep of Waqf properties. While it does not dictate much to the Waqf board, the board is ultimatelty answerable to the Government on usage and raising of funds. At least on paper.

 

The Government of India also regulates curriculum( SPQEM) and registers Madrassas across the country.

 

Similarly there are Parsi panchayats that regulate property upkeep and distribution within the Parsi community. Some of the trustees are appointed by the GoI. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Muloghonto

 

The Government of India has set up the Waqf board, a statutory body for the upkeep of Waqf properties. While it does not dictate much to the Waqf board, the board is ultimatelty answerable to the Government on usage and raising of funds. At least on paper.

 

The Government of India also regulates curriculum( SPQEM) and registers Madrassas across the country.

 

Similarly there are Parsi panchayats that regulate property upkeep and distribution within the Parsi community. Some of the trustees are appointed by the GoI. 

 

That is not the same as Temples. GoI has no say in how Wakf manages the properties.  In Temples, Goi has a hand on the hundi (collection).  Show one act of control on the Mosques/Churches collection money. Also, Goi/Politicians have usurped Temple lands that were given to the temples by erstwhile Maharajas and have a right over it, is given out to builders and sometimes to Mosques as well (in Kerala).

 

 There is no Wakf for Christians, most of the churches were built on leased land given by the brits. The lease is ever continuing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Some very idiotic opinions of Hinduism here, don't have the patience to argue. Stay in your ignorant heaven or hell.

 

Let us agree to disagree. 

 

Nevertheless, as an outsider, this is my honest opinion. 

 

Younger generation is more interested in Evolution and Science instead of centuries old Vedas or practices of religious worship. And we all know that path to evolution and science will always lead people away from all religions  and towards atheism. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Let us agree to disagree. 

 

Nevertheless, as an outsider, this is my honest opinion. 

 

Younger generation is more interested in Evolution and Science instead of centuries old Vedas or practices of religious worship. And we all know that path to evolution and science will always lead people away from all religions  and towards atheism. 

 

Hinduism is the only religion not against science. You don't hear Aryabhatta had a heliocentric vision and stated that and some king banished him to prison. And nobody today knows much about Vedas/Manusmriti to follow it like Quran/Bible. You say Hinduism is not modern, unlike Islam/Christianity. It is one of the those reforming every day, it is as decentralized as Atheism. there is no one single entity that controls it.

They are not competing with Muslims or Christianity in numbers. This bill is to safeguard what is left from predators who attract people with doles like water and rice. It is not that Hindusim is weak, but the GoI is weak to not heed to basic facilities in the poorest regions. There is no blasphemy law like Pak to control freedom of thought. But don't misuse official means for proselytization. Don't come as visitors and hunt souls, that's all. Don't come after innocent adivasis and kick their gullible practices, they might not be educated in modern ways, but have a right to their beliefs

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Let us agree to disagree. 

 

Nevertheless, as an outsider, this is my honest opinion. 

 

Younger generation is more interested in Evolution and Science instead of centuries old Vedas or practices of religious worship. And we all know that path to evolution and science will always lead people away from all religions  and towards atheism. 


Yet, many big religious are “book locked”, there is nothing new added or changed since the book.

 

Thats not the case with Hinduism, which thrives on open-architecture. Its also one of few religions which talks about cosmos, and has a understanding in line with modern science.

 

Next, in some religions, there is only a human identity. Where world is meant for human consumption and exploitation. Whereas, in Hinduism and other Indian origin religions, we talk about Earth rights, animals rights. The world is not for human consumption. We understand, animals have “aatma “ or their own “dharma”. We dont see “soul” as just human exclusive. Aatma is a bad and incorrect translation for soul.

 

So environmentalism is natural and in-built in India culture. Unlike other societies who are doing it now, as they may run out of resources, not over some genuine care of Earth and ecosystem. Thats just one field, there are many such science and modern relevance with Indian religions.

 

Edited by someone
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Again what you are writing is totally not related to your earlier claims of atheism being different in west and east due to the socia-economic norm or ethical axioms

I wonder if you could ever give the related answers instead of always coming up with new stuff which makes no sense in answering the topic of discussion. 
Our topic was If one atheist does not believe in any gods and Vedas in India in his mind, then he is same like an atheist in US who also does not believe in any gods or Vedas in US, and no socio-economic norm or ethical axioms is going to make any difference in this basic belief .............. but you came up with Abrahamic religions, and absolute evil vs absolute good blah blah blah

 

clearly you have issues understanding and you have not actually read most of the religious texts. I gave you example of how atheism originating in different culture has different assumptive axioms and different ethical basis, which over time becomes dogma. Atheists from the west have western style cultural beliefs- such as belief in aliens, beleif that all humans are equal etc. Atheists from the east do not 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 


 


Now you are trying to confuse the issue. 

It is about "Human Rights". 
Buddhists and Western Secularism all believe that all humans are equal in having "same Human Rights by birth", while it is only Hinduism which denies it and give some people preference in having human rights above others in name of Brahmin and Untouchables. 

 

but that is NOT my claim. My claim is atheists from the west flat out say all humans are equal. Not equal before the law, but all humans are equal and deserve equal opportunities in life. Which is an unsubstantiated claim, with no proof provided and thus is also a belief system.  Hinduism in theory does not give more rights to some and less to others. It does so in practice, which is also true for the west. 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You are intentionally trying to confuse the things. 
Never ever Buddhism or Western Secularism denied the "abilities" of an individual person and his excellence due to his abilities. But this has nothing to do with Hindu System, where despite having low abilities, still one gets higher status if he is  born in a Brahmin family. 

I wonder why you always have to use such low tactics in order to defend your Hinduism and it's evils? 

 

ofcourse the west denies inequality of abilities. That is the fundamental basis of western atheists arguing for equality of opportunity. Why do you deserve the same opportunities in life as me if you do not have the same abilities as me ? 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

It is not about what you think, it is about what is right and correct. 

Great Buddha and his monks preached the Buddhist teachings in organised way to the people and there was nothing wrong in it.

nope. He did not create an institution of proselytizing monks, he did not ask them to offer bribes like christians and Muslims do, nor did he ask to emotionally blackmail people by saying convert or go to hell etc. 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Even if Hindu Temples offer "Parsaad" as bribe for poor people to join temple prayers, still it is not a crime. 

Even if Christians are opening their missionary schools and offering good education, and offering social services (like Mother Teressa did), still it is not a crime. Even if they are helping the poor people with money, still it is not a crime. It becomes a crime only if they "compel" the poor people to forcefully accept their religion. 
 

Bribery is seen as an ethical crime in most legal systems around the world. 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

 

And as far as Atheists are concerned, then they are totally decentralized, and they have no religious centres, and they don't offer any money. Europe is turning towards Atheism automatically only due to the ATTRACTION of it's simplicity, and even the Rich European Church, it's money, it's bribe, it's social services are unable to stop this conversion. Therefore, if in India poor people leave Hinduism for Christianity, then it is due to the reason that Hinduism does not have any attraction and it's teaching are totally outdated for the present era. 
 

or it is due to propaganda vilifying Hinduism like you have done by making up nonsense and using a western anti Hindu stance. 
people are free to leave it, but you are not free to ask them to leave it. 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

So, Christians are defeating Hinduism in India, while Atheism is defeating Christianity in it's centre i.e. Europe. All this is happening mainly while Hinduism has the least attraction, while Atheism has the maximum attraction and it is making all others factors of bribe through social services irrelevant, while religious Hindus are trying to hide the deficiency of attraction in Hinduism in name of bribe through social services. 
 

all this is happening because christians are bribing poor hindus. Asking someone to change their mind while offering financial incentives is ethical misuse of power. It is because of bribery thst they are succeeding now an didn’t succeed before when indians were not so poor. 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Actually Hindus also have an organised system of their religious Temples, and religious schools, and social services, but still they fail in attracting others towards Hinduism in this modern era. 


 

 

are you contending that no one converts to hindusm in the modern era ? 

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Atheism is as old as Hinduism, or perhaps much older than Hinduism. I don't think Atheism is going to be dead tomorrow, but I only see big numbers of Hindus turning towards Atheism in India, while inverse is not true and I hardly see Atheists becoming Hindus. 

 


plenty of atheists have become Hindu in my experience. And unlike christians and Muslims, we do not threaten them with hell or bribe the poor to convert them. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Let us agree to disagree. 

 

Nevertheless, as an outsider, this is my honest opinion. 

 

Younger generation is more interested in Evolution and Science instead of centuries old Vedas or practices of religious worship. And we all know that path to evolution and science will always lead people away from all religions  and towards atheism. 

How does your opinion matter, when you parrot standard western propaganda and demonstrate you know nothing of Hinduism and have not studied any of its texts ? Earlier years ago you tried to pass off an obscure book- manusmriti- as some sort of authority on Hinduism because your white masters say so. Despite the fact that 99% of hindus have no bearing on it and it by DEFINITION is of a lower authority than even the hadiths is to Islam, as the name itself - a smriti- means ‘ commentary’ and is distinctly referred to ( as all smritis are) as non canonical. 
 

you peddle standard western atheist propaganda disenfranchising eastern atheist schools of philosophy such as Buddhism and daoism as religion- when it is not a religion and nowhere in the vast history of the east is it acknowledged as such. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

As i thought- you just made it up and you are now caught in the boldfaced lie that Indian govt manages churches and mosques through appointed committes like it does to hindu temples.

Everything comes under its jurisdiction, even mosques and churches. That is how they are intervening with Hindu temples. 

 

16 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Sure. we do. the ban isnt about self conversion to any religion. The ban is from YOU converting others. You are free to make ur choice to leave ur religion.  If one religion tries to get more invested in converting people, the government is justified in focusing on them more to curtail their actions to preserve equal access for all. 

It's the people who will make the final decision as to what they want with their life. You need to shut up and stop interfering with their personal affairs, like the fascist c*nt you are. 

 

16 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

So India should use a foreign language as its national language and not the native majority language because of anti-national minority butthurt ones. Thats called being anti-national to the bone, just like most dravidian ideology followers are.

India does not need national language and it simply cannot have one. All state languages should be made official with English as it's link language. Period. If you don't agree with that, you can f*ck off from this country. 

 

16 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

False. An ideology is any set of professed ideals or beleif system. You believe there is no god. that is an ideology too. Again, in simple math terms, a null set is still a set. Atheism is still an ideology.I am not assuming God is an universal truth because i am an agnost, not a theist. To me God is an unproven case but also a possible case, as any existential question technically is possible till you exhaust the domain of search. This is mathematically provable, which is why MOST non theistic Indian philosophies and sages were agnostic, not atheist. 

 

This is why when even Richard Dawkins and such other western morons get cornered they go 'well technically we are agnosts BUT.....'type of CMA statements coz they know atheism in itself - by definition- aka rejection of the eixstence of God- is a belief system and only mathematically valid answer is agnosticism (ie, the indeterminate answer). Maybe this is why Jinsen was an agnost, not an atheist.

Refuting the delusions made with no basis or evidence is not an ideology. Atheism is simply a case of rejecting the claims made by faiths. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 

That is not the same as Temples. GoI has no say in how Wakf manages the properties.  In Temples, Goi has a hand on the hundi (collection).  Show one act of control on the Mosques/Churches collection money. Also, Goi/Politicians have usurped Temple lands that were given to the temples by erstwhile Maharajas and have a right over it, is given out to builders and sometimes to Mosques as well (in Kerala).

 

 There is no Wakf for Christians, most of the churches were built on leased land given by the brits. The lease is ever continuing.

This is simply incorrect.

 

The Waqf boards are answerable to the Centre/State on how their funds are managed. The Centre appoints those on the Central Waqf council. People ( not the bigwigs, but local level caretakers) have had cases of graft filed against them. The accounts are looked at by bodies both from the State and the Centre. The Central Vigilance Commission has a Waqf specific desk!

 

Also, corruption of the sort you have mentioned is rife in the Central/State Waqf councils. Corruption is faith agnostic. Your home state Karnataka, has the dubious distinction of having some of the largest land scams conducted by the boards in tandem with local politicians. Acres of kabrastan land were sold to Real Estate developers ( many of whom claimed to be duped/ unaware that they were buying waqf land).  

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

This is simply incorrect.

 

The Waqf boards are answerable to the Centre/State on how their funds are managed. The Centre appoints those on the Central Waqf council. People ( not the bigwigs, but local level caretakers) have had cases of graft filed against them. The accounts are looked at by bodies both from the State and the Centre. The Central Vigilance Commission has a Waqf specific desk!

 

Also, corruption of the sort you have mentioned is rife in the Central/State Waqf councils. Corruption is faith agnostic. Your home state Karnataka, has the dubious distinction of having some of the largest land scams conducted by the boards in tandem with local politicians. Acres of kabrastan land were sold to Real Estate developers ( many of whom claimed to be duped/ unaware that they were buying waqf land).  

 

 

 

Look at the pic  from Swarajya I posted. Can other faith members be on any Wakf/trustee of Wakf properties? They will be Govt appointees but of the same faith. We don't have that luxury. Also, you carefully deflected the point about income tax on Mosques/Churches v/s Temples. Temple income is taxed while it is not taxed for other institutions. These laws were instituted by brits that our constitution just copied. I am glad the Wakf board is after the independence, but Hindus don't have that luxury, the same mujrai dept that was called in old Mysore state, is still practiced in our country.

 

Also, GoI dictates the prices of services in Temples and also mandate what rituals have to be followed, there are some yearly rituals about how the deity needs to be re-energized with some services. They control to that level. You can't hear about any namaaz/church rituals about when mass needs to be performed,  being controlled by GoI. Yes it does in case of some temples. Absolutely pathetic. Also, money collected from temples can be used any where else, including repairing Mosques as it happened in Kar and AP. So, why this distiction in secular India.

Edited by coffee_rules
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lannister said:

Everything comes under its jurisdiction, even mosques and churches. That is how they are intervening with Hindu temples. 

False, liar. Indian government does not pick or have a say on the padres and committes on roman catholic churches in India. 

Anti hindu spiel wont get you far on this forum when you make up categoric falsehoods and run away when asking for proof. 

1 hour ago, Lannister said:

It's the people who will make the final decision as to what they want with their life. You need to shut up and stop interfering with their personal affairs, like the fascist c*nt you are. 

Yes. People. They can. Convertors is a service. We can control that and have a right to, since its a service. Just like we stop serving porno to kids. Or selling death sports to adults. We can classify any service as we wish, as PEOPLE, by POPULAR vote. You are free to convert to whatever you wish. 

1 hour ago, Lannister said:

 

India does not need national language and it simply cannot have one.

It does and it can. Every single nation has a national language. Hence the argument it doesnt need it, is faceteous and unproven. Prove that the only country in modern history to not have a national language doesnt need it. 


It can have it. Provided jealous little provincial c*nts like you stfu and know your place in a diverse majority where you are not the largest group. 

1 hour ago, Lannister said:

All state languages should be made official with English as it's link language. Period. If you don't agree with that, you can f*ck off from this country. 

Nope. The largest two most common languages, especially the indegenous one, needs to be the national language. We cannot do official business at national level in every single local language. Thats called making bab

1 hour ago, Lannister said:

 

Refuting the delusions made with no basis or evidence is not an ideology. Atheism is simply a case of rejecting the claims made by faiths. 

yes it is.

Just like null set is a set, having no beleif in god is also an ideology. Atheism is a ideology. Just like theism and agnosticism are also ideologies. 

X= true

X= false

X= maybe. 

 

all of them are ideologies because all of it is contingent on IDEOLICAL STANCE ON X.  The x is false set is also known as null set. Null set is a set. Basic set theory. Ie, basic logic. 

Its a pity you are such a math fail. Else you wouldnt be whining about basic definitions that your fellow atheists have ditched you on this thread too. Dont make me cite basic philosophy definitions now.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

clearly you have issues understanding and you have not actually read most of the religious texts. I gave you example of how atheism originating in different culture has different assumptive axioms and different ethical basis, which over time becomes dogma. Atheists from the west have western style cultural beliefs- such as belief in aliens, beleif that all humans are equal etc. Atheists from the east do not 

 

Your arguments have become childish and laughable and you know it yourself, but you are showing only stubborn behaviour here. 

 

Atheists in East or West have the same BASIC belief that there exist no Allah and no Bhagwan and no other so called god of any religion. There is absolutely no difference in this Belief, and this is the only thing which makes one Atheist or non-Atheist. While your childish claim of believing in aliens or equal rights has nothing to do with Atheism. 

 

And that too is not West exclusive, but there are some people in West who believe in aliens, and there are some people in the east too who believe in aliens. 

 

And whole of our talk about "All humans are Equal" is totally rubbish as no Atheist (or even non-Atheist) in West believe in it, but they believe in "Equal Human Rights". As far as having equal basic rights (which you label as opportunities, like education for children and healthcare ) is concerned, then again it is not only Atheist exclusive or West exclusive, but there are many non-Atheists in West also who want to have these things covered under basic human rights in their social democratic system. Similarly, there are man Indian atheists and non-Atheists who also believe in this social system and want to have education and healthcare free for all citizens as their basic human rights. 

 

And I have to stop the discussion here, while you yourself know this simple thing, but your stubborn behaviour is compelling you to come up with such silly argumentation. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Your arguments have become childish and laughable and you know it yourself, but you are showing only stubborn behaviour here. 

Ah yes name-calling. 
Last defence of the abrahamic ethicist. We are used to your disenfranchsing and erasing us easterners. But do better. 

I gave you pointed examples of how the western and eastern systems of religions differ. You ran away. 

 

2 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Atheists in East or West have the same BASIC belief that there exist no Allah and no Bhagwan and no other so called god of any religion. There is absolutely no difference in this Belief, and this is the only thing which makes one Atheist or non-Atheist. While your childish claim of believing in aliens or equal rights has nothing to do with Atheism. 

Thats like saying muslims and christians believe there is one god. People who believe in 1, 2 or 0 god are all, in large enough numbers show dogmatic trends in ideology.

 

I gave you the western atheist doctrine- every man is equal beleif system. Eastern atheism has never showed this beleif system. This is the WESTERN version of it. 

 

2 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

And that too is not West exclusive, but there are some people in West who believe in aliens, and there are some people in the east too who believe in aliens. 

irrelevant. Denial of eastern and western religious and ethical systems has been a long-exhausted, albeit western-centric ( coz its mostly done by them and now by China) field of study called orientalism and occcidentalism. 

Do read up on it, saves a lot of time explaining basic philosophical breakups of the world's landscape. 

2 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

And whole of our talk about "All humans are Equal" is totally rubbish as no Atheist (or even non-Atheist) in West believe in it, but they believe in "Equal Human Rights".

False. Liar. I live in the west. Been here for 20+ years and until recently considered myself an atheist. 

All humans are equal is a DOMINANT self-professed belief of the westerner. 

 

2 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

As far as having equal basic rights (which you label as opportunities, like education for children and healthcare ) is concerned, then again it is not only Atheist exclusive or West exclusive, but there are many non-Atheists in West also who want to have these things covered under basic human rights in their social democratic system. Similarly, there are man Indian atheists and non-Atheists who also believe in this social system and want to have education and healthcare free for all citizens as their basic human rights. 

No, changing the goalposts wont work. Modern day western atheists who are dominantly liberal believe that we should have social services and apex development of individual rights. This is a western atheist doctrine, not followed by most in the east. 

 

2 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

And I have to stop the discussion here, while you yourself know this simple thing, but your stubborn behaviour is compelling you to come up with such silly argumentation. 

 

Yeah you western atheist colonialists will run away when we ask you the simple question: HOW DARE YOU CALL BUDDHISM, AN EASTERN ORIGIN ATHEIST/AGNOSTIC IDEOLOGY A RELIGION ? 

 

once an abrahamic binary doctrinian, always one. Run along now till i corner you again trying to make BS claims about hinduism out of your bias against it rather than any actual education of it. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

While your childish claim of believing in aliens or equal rights has nothing to do with Atheism. 

 

And that too is not West exclusive, but there are some people in West who believe in aliens, and there are some people in the east too who believe in aliens. 

 


you are correct. it has nothing to do with atheism. They are the flavour of the western atheist belief system. Buddhists in general dont have the same beleif system as western atheists do peddling western abrahamic rejectionism atheism and being too presumptive to speak of other religions it doesnt know of. Family of Abraham and its foresaken children are idiotic that way. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lannister said:

So this coffee guy wants a situation where an extremist Hindu party to take complete control of other faiths and do whatever it wants with them without the constitutional protection? I wonder how it will go :phehe:

 

Leave it to manusmriti brahman to come up with these kachada ideas. 

 

manusmriti is less than top 100 in the list of brahminical things brahmins know of. Stop libelling hindus with your hindu hatred, hindu hater. 

 

BJP is no more extremist than Angela Merkel's CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATIC party. Now fack off,anti indian, anti hindu regional supremacist. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Lannister said:

So this coffee guy wants a situation where an extremist Hindu party to take complete control of other faiths and do whatever it wants with them without the constitutional protection? I wonder how it will go :phehe:

 

Leave it to manusmriti brahman to come up with these kachada ideas. 

 

Seriously is manusmriti the only text you can quote off ?  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...