33-34 yr olds taking the place of 20-22 yr olds in Team India

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

a 35 year old Saha as of now  averages  just  30.5 after playing just  46 inns  for his age. As per me, even is Saha is better in keeping  Pant far outweighs him over all(keeping + batting) , let alone Pant is a rookie. That means Saha has been  inadequate for the spot at the first place, keeping in mind Saha replaced a 39 averaging  batsman  in Dhoni. W.r.t other matters ,each to their own.

That’s not how it works. If it did, every superior keeper + bat combo would be in the team over the overall superior keeper. Batting matters, but being decisively superior in keeping also matters, especially when the batting lineups are deep. 

[Laaloo]

6 hours ago, beetle said:

Pant has made wktkeeping records in aus.

You’re talking to a duffer who was saying pants glutes have not been developed so he shouldn’t be in the test team. This was a year or two years back.

[Real McCoy]

23 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes and that’s a qualitative argument. My point was to demonstrate age being a factor which the OP did. Like it’s a crime to be olds in sports or sports should be for young people only mentality 

Agreed but once a player reaches 35+, his reflexes slow down. Selecting a player above 35 should be the exception rather than the rule. 33-34 should be ok. Mark Waugh was dropped in 2001 for Martyn even though he was scoring well. Only Warne, Mcgrath and Ponting were allowed to stick around for a little longer.

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, Laaloo said:

You’re talking to a duffer who was saying pants glutes have not been developed so he shouldn’t be in the test team. This was a year or two years back.

And it was true 2 years ago 

[Muloghonto]

27 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Agreed but once a player reaches 35+, his reflexes slow down. Selecting a player above 35 should be the exception rather than the rule. 33-34 should be ok. Mark Waugh was dropped in 2001 for Martyn even though he was scoring well. Only Warne, Mcgrath and Ponting were allowed to stick around for a little longer.

Sure but as long as results are there, reflexes be damned. If a guy is putting up the numbers I don’t care if he is 60 to be honest 

[rkt.india]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Sure but as long as results are there, reflexes be damned. If a guy is putting up the numbers I don’t care if he is 60 to be honest 

But results aren't there. Saha hasn't lasted whole series and kept getting injured mid series. Also, people used to say Saha isn't good against spin but good against pace as a wk and reverse was said about Dhoni but suddenly Saha has somehow become good against spin. They are finding new ways castigate Pant. They are trying to show how experience matters to them and how they pick experienced players, just to justify come back of Dhoni in ODIs and T20s.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, rkt.india said:

But results aren't there. Saha hasn't lasted whole series and kept getting injured mid series. Also, people used to say Saha isn't good against spin but good against pace as a wk and reverse was said about Dhoni but suddenly Saha has somehow become good against spin. They are finding new ways castigate Pant. They are trying to show how experience matters to them and how they pick experienced players, just to justify come back of Dhoni in ODIs and T20s.

The results are there because in a team that bats 8-9 deep, superior keeping skills is far more important than batting skills

[Moochad]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

But results aren't there. Saha hasn't lasted whole series and kept getting injured mid series. Also, people used to say Saha isn't good against spin but good against pace as a wk and reverse was said about Dhoni but suddenly Saha has somehow become good against spin. They are finding new ways castigate Pant. They are trying to show how experience matters to them and how they pick experienced players, just to justify come back of Dhoni in ODIs and T20s.

What does it matter what people used to say? Saha has kept well to spin recently on turning tracks with Jadeja and Ashwin bowling

[rkt.india]

5 minutes ago, Moochad said:

What does it matter what people used to say? Saha has kept well to spin recently on turning tracks with Jadeja and Ashwin bowling

So did Pant.

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The results are there because in a team that bats 8-9 deep, superior keeping skills is far more important than batting skills

But can't trust someone who hasn't lasted a whole series in last three years. Also, we are anyway going to win at home even if Pant has a misses or two behind the stumps.  It will help prepare him for future. It's not like Pant is Parthiv or DK level bad. Pant is a better wk than Dhoni was in his early years.

[Moochad]

Just now, rkt.india said:

So did Pant.

Didn't mention Pant.

 

What does something people allegedly used to say about Saha vs Dhoni have to do with today?  Some were saying that  Saha was the best keeper in the world for a while now.  On what basis can you imply Saha isn't a good keeper to spin? 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

But can't trust someone who hasn't lasted a whole series in last three years. Also, we are anyway going to win at home even if Pant has a misses or two behind the stumps.  It will help prepare him for future. It's not like Pant is Parthiv or DK level bad. Pant is a better wk than Dhoni was in his early years.

He can prepare for future in domestic cricket. International cricket isn’t a nursery. And no Pant isn’t a better keeper than Dhoni in early years not by a long shot. He is way worse in keeping to spin and all he has over Dhoni is flashy dives 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

He can prepare for future in domestic cricket. International cricket isn’t a nursery. And no Pant isn’t a better keeper than Dhoni in early years not by a long shot. He is way worse in keeping to spin and all he has over Dhoni is flashy dives 

he cant play domestic in ongoing series due to concussion rule . So if Saha plays next 5 test at home....pant will just be on bench playing no cricket . Dropping him after performing will only create insecurity in him which is never good for a player 

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

He can prepare for future in domestic cricket. International cricket isn’t a nursery. And no Pant isn’t a better keeper than Dhoni in early years not by a long shot. He is way worse in keeping to spin and all he has over Dhoni is flashy dives 

Data can always bust some of these myths

 Go through this analysis. https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/17701410/charles-davis-numbers-dropped-catches

 

 

Quote

It is not uncommon for keepers to start with a bang but fade later in their careers. Boucher, Watling, Gilchrist and de Villiers all had miss rates in single digits earlier in their careers. Gilchrist's miss rate rose in the last couple of years before his retirement. Others with very low rates, who did not qualify for the table, include Peter Nevill and Chris Read, on 7%. Read, to my eye, was one of the best modern wicketkeepers, but he did not get very many opportunities since he was unable to score enough runs to hold his place

 

Quote

The wicketkeeper with the most misses is MS Dhoni with 66 (18%). In his defence, Dhoni had to deal with a high percentage of spin bowling, which presents a much greater challenge for keepers. Miss rates for leading wicketkeepers off spinners average around 30%, for both catches and stumpings, but it is only 10% for catches off pace bowlers. It can certainly be argued that keeping to spinners is the true test of a keeper.

 

Dhoni's drop rate was 18%, this after he improved as a keeper after 2009-10 onwards. Don't have the data but I'll not be surprised if that number was 22-23%+ in first few years of his career.

 

Drop rate for Dinesh Karthik was 22% but he was always villified for being a poor keeper while Dhoni with 18% was always a very good keeper! In reality as a keeper, Dhoni in reality was competing with the poorest keepers of his era - Akmals and Sarfaraz

Edited October 3, 2019 by ShoonyaSifar

[Muloghonto]

21 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

he cant play domestic in ongoing series due to concussion rule . So if Saha plays next 5 test at home....pant will just be on bench playing no cricket . Dropping him after performing will only create insecurity in him which is never good for a player 

What’s this concussion rule ?? 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Data can always bust some of these myths

 Go through this analysis. https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/17701410/charles-davis-numbers-dropped-catches

 

 

 

 

 

 

Drop rate for Dinesh Karthik was 22% but he was always villified for being a poor keeper while Dhoni with 18% was always a very good keeper! In reality as a keeper, Dhoni was competing with the poorest keeper of his era - Akmals and Sarfaraz

In reality Dhoni is one of the greatest keepers to spin bowling because he kept to Kumble, the hardest bowler to keep to according to ALL keepers. 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

In reality Dhoni is one of the greatest keepers to spin bowling because he kept to Kumble, the hardest bowler to keep to according to ALL keepers. 

How many tests, he kept to Kumble at home? Also Kumble wasn't the biggest Turner of the ball and his modes of dismissals were usually lbw, bowled or pad-bat. Wk would hardly come into play and these days, most spinners bowl like Kumble. Jaddu is no better to keep on turners.

Edited October 3, 2019 by rkt.india

[Muloghonto]

13 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

How many tests, he kept to Kumble at home? Also Kumble wasn't the biggest Turner of the ball and his modes of dismissals were usually lbw, bowled or pad-bat. Wk would hardly come into play and these days, most spinners bowl like Kumble. Jaddu is no better to keep on turners.

Look dude, I am going by what Mongia, Dhoni, the county keepers ALL have said : that Kumble was notoriously difficult to keep to. LOL @ Jadeja being like Kumble just because he isn’t a big turner too. This is what happens when you don’t SEE the games and go by stats. Kumble had a crazy good top spinner and an indipper. Both weapons of wrist spinners, both extremely hard to judge for keepers and both made extra hard due to Kumbles height. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

What’s this concussion rule ?? 

players who suffer concussions during a match to be replaced in their team XI by the one sitting in squad

So u can replace a keeper with a keeper , hence they can release pant during games to play domestic ....So pant will be warming the bench this whole time 

[ShoonyaSifar]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

In reality Dhoni is one of the greatest keepers to spin bowling because he kept to Kumble, the hardest bowler to keep to according to ALL keepers. 

If Cricinfo still had detailed commentary from 2005-08, all such claims could so easily have been busted. Anyone who watched Dhoni from 2005-07 would know he was a very average keeper (his worse was the 2006 Eng home series and  2007 Eng tour) . His hard hitting batting and ODI performances kept saving him in Tests.