How does Ashwin-Jadeja stack up against Kumble-Harbhajan?

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 hours ago, Khota said:

Show me their numbers in Australia.

In Aus 

Ashwin avg 48......7 test 22 wkts 

Bhajji - 73.22, 4 games 9 wkts

 

guess what ashwin is even better then bhajji here as well.........srsly dnt ask for stats n dig ur grave 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

2 against SA 2015

1 against NZ 2016

1 against Aus 2017

 

According to some:

Karun Nair scored 300 on biased pitch, Kohli and Pujara averaged 70+ on biased pitches, double 100 by one of our batters in every series on biased pitches.

 

700+ score and multiple 600/500 scores on biased pitches.

 

By that logic every single Indian batsman of this decade is better than Don. 

even kohli has few 200 in that phase 

Rahane made runs in that NZ series who is said to struggle against spin

Rohit made runs in that NZ series to

 

so called bowler frendly pitches

[SRT100]

Kumble and Bhajji bowled against far superior batsmen and batting lineups.

 

Today's overseas batsmen has one or two who can face spin and rest just choke.

[mani sha]

Kumble was a master - bounce pace spin and googly later on with flipper always 

bowled large part of his initial career with raju and chauhan against - lanka ( jayasurya came later but had de Silva and ranatunga and gurusingha - crazy good spin players )

 

pak had Anwar sohail and Ijaz 

 

aussie were world beaters - Hayden etc and Waugh bro’s before that 

 

even Zimbabwe had flower! 
 

pethaps england was a Minnow . West Indies has lara chanderpaul etc 

 

support cast for kumble was srinath and then Dodda Ganesh , raju amd chauhan ! 
 

 

once Bhajji came in , kumble actually became more threatening - together they form the best spinning pair . Bhajji was special - not seen such drift and bounce in many off spinners at their peak - india actually competed in Aussie when these two with agarkar ishant and zaheer formed a good bowling attack 

 

pitches were mainly batting paradises those days - still remember the 900 scored by Sri Lanka ! 
 

ashwin is at best a decent spinner and at worst a half fit guy - he is not half as fit as kumble and Bhajji . 
jaddu though is a underrated spinner - seems to do his job always. 
 

as a combo - give me Bhajji kumble anyday over ash jaddu when bumrah sharma -2 and shami around ! 
 

ash jaddu score over Bhajji kumble only in one department - as a combo they give u tremendous batting depth in india . We won the series against England cos of batting depth 

 

if u want to see how good a bowler kumble was , look no further than his performances in aussie and even in South Africa - he was and shall remain indias best spin bowler last 40 years ( didn’t see bedi and others so won’t comment - shastri etc don’t count !) 

[mani sha]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In Aus 

Ashwin avg 48......7 test 22 wkts 

Bhajji - 73.22, 4 games 9 wkts

 

guess what ashwin is even better then bhajji here as well.........srsly dnt ask for stats n dig ur grave 

Yes - try bowling against 

Hayden gillly langer pointing Symmonds 

i bet ur avges will reverse . Ash is lucky he hasn’t run into haydos ! Hayden would have swept ash into oblivion 

Edited October 11, 2019 by mani sha

[Gollum]

13 minutes ago, mani sha said:

Yes - try bowling against 

Hayden gillly langer pointing Symmonds 

i bet ur avges will reverse . Ash is lucky he hasn’t run into haydos ! Hayden would have swept ash into oblivion 

Ashwin played 6 tests in 2011-12 series and 2014-15, some of the flattest pitches in test history against peak Clarke, Hussey, Ponting, peak Smith, peak Warner. And Smith is 10 times the player Haydos ever was, wonder what he would do to Chuckbhajan?

[Gollum]

Kumble benefited because of 90s Indian pitches, unlike what some experts here say those designer pitches were tougher than 2010s Indian pitches. He averaged in early 20s in those pitches and 50+ overseas (maybe more). Did very little overseas for the first 10-12  years of his career. Lucky cos no competitor breathing down his neck. 

 

Harbhajan was a chucker during best part of his career. As Bedi said, a javelin thrower. 

 

Dispute any of the 2 above points if you can. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

25 minutes ago, mani sha said:

Yes - try bowling against 

Hayden gillly langer pointing Symmonds 

i bet ur avges will reverse . Ash is lucky he hasn’t run into haydos ! Hayden would have swept ash into oblivion 

Those aussie pitches still had something to in last few years when they have become absolute pancakes since they started using drop in pitches 

[Vilander]

India with the advent of its pace brigade has started making more neutral pitches unlike the earlier raging turners. I find it funny people here think reverse is true lolz. 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, SRT100 said:

Kumble and Bhajji bowled against far superior batsmen and batting lineups.

 

Today's overseas batsmen has one or two who can face spin and rest just choke.

This is a perception. Not all great players of spin co-occured in the past as well they were interspread over a large period. Often visiting teams would choke against spin with 1 or 2 players able to counter it and turners were looked down on by overseas press..eventually as more western players learnt to play spin and some started excelling it was acknowledged as raging turner ultimate examination and acheivement etc like today, similar to grudging reverence spitting green pitches get. They just make test cricket dramatic and heroic.

[ShoonyaSifar]

On 10/10/2019 at 12:57 AM, Gollum said:

No Warne/Murali but Lyon, Herath, Maharaj not exactly mugs, plus bowling to far inferior batsmen.

As I said, those numbers do not take into account some of the sleeping beauties at Kotla, Mohali, Chinnaswamy, Hyderabad or Chepauk in the mid-2000s. Go 1-0 in the series and produce 2 dead tracks or 2 dead tracks followed by a turner, that seemed like the norm.
 

Thank god we haven’t had any such Test pitches for almost 5-6 years now.

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, mani sha said:

Kumble was a master - bounce pace spin and googly later on with flipper always 

bowled large part of his initial career with raju and chauhan against - lanka ( jayasurya came later but had de Silva and ranatunga and gurusingha - crazy good spin players )

 

pak had Anwar sohail and Ijaz 

 

aussie were world beaters - Hayden etc and Waugh bro’s before that 

 

even Zimbabwe had flower! 
 

pethaps england was a Minnow . West Indies has lara chanderpaul etc 

 

support cast for kumble was srinath and then Dodda Ganesh , raju amd chauhan ! 
 

 

once Bhajji came in , kumble actually became more threatening - together they form the best spinning pair . Bhajji was special - not seen such drift and bounce in many off spinners at their peak - india actually competed in Aussie when these two with agarkar ishant and zaheer formed a good bowling attack 

 

pitches were mainly batting paradises those days - still remember the 900 scored by Sri Lanka ! 
 

ashwin is at best a decent spinner and at worst a half fit guy - he is not half as fit as kumble and Bhajji . 
jaddu though is a underrated spinner - seems to do his job always. 
 

as a combo - give me Bhajji kumble anyday over ash jaddu when bumrah sharma -2 and shami around ! 
 

ash jaddu score over Bhajji kumble only in one department - as a combo they give u tremendous batting depth in india . We won the series against England cos of batting depth 

 

if u want to see how good a bowler kumble was , look no further than his performances in aussie and even in South Africa - he was and shall remain indias best spin bowler last 40 years ( didn’t see bedi and others so won’t comment - shastri etc don’t count !) 

yea right as if sanga wasnt a gr8 batsman.....ashwin made him his bunny

 

jadeja made clarke his bunny n clarke scored runs against bhajji n kumble in 2004 

 

Acc to u williamson, smith, root, abdv, sanga, cook arent good batsman 

 

 

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

As I said, those numbers do not take into account some of the sleeping beauties at Kotla, Mohali, Chinnaswamy, Hyderabad or Chepauk in the mid-2000s. Go 1-0 in the series and produce 2 dead tracks or 2 dead tracks followed by a turner, that seemed like the norm.
 

Thank god we haven’t had any such Test pitches for almost 5-6 years now.

More than sleeping beauties it was lack of ambition on our part, also lack of ability, defensive captaincy. 

[Trichromatic]

England tour of India 2012

Rank turners and Ashwin averaged 50 in that series. He just tried too many things and didn't succeed. He was also slow through the air. Panesar who was quicker reaped rewards. Jadeja would have been handy in first 3 tests at Ahmedabad, Kolkata and Mumbai, although Ahmedabad was slow.

 

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

 

England tour of India 2016

Flat pitches but weak batting line up. 3rd test - Ashwin took 7-fer and 4th test Jadeja. Those 7-fers were after India had piled up 600-700 runs after England had scored 400+ in first inning. I doubt that Bhajji could produce those spells of running through line up on those tracks. Can't say anything about Kumble. 2004 Chennai test v Aus and it was decent batting track against an ATG line up and yet he ran through them.

 

To be continued...

[R!TTER]

41 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

You forget the impact of DRS, Harbhajan had Cook trapped lbw before the end of play (2nd day) in Mumbai 2012. Kumble had Clarke lbw on 92 (or 94) at Bangalore, again no reviews, while Pathan trapped Langer in the first over of the series itself, same venue!

 

It's easy to forget how DRS has had a profound impact on wickets this decade! I'm flabbergasted how the past spinners are looked down upon just by peeking at stats, conveniently forgetting umpires wouldn't give a lot of plumb calls back in the day! Even neutral umpires, like Billy "clown" Bowden or especially Bucknor were shite

Edited October 12, 2019 by R!TTER

[Gollum]

10 hours ago, R!TTER said:

You forget the impact of DRS, Harbhajan had Cook trapped lbw before the end of play (2nd day) in Mumbai 2012. Kumble had Clarke lbw on 92 (or 94) at Bangalore, again no reviews, while Pathan trapped Langer in the first over of the series itself, same venue!

 

It's easy to forget how DRS has had a profound impact on wickets this decade! I'm flabbergasted how the past spinners are looked down upon just by peeking at stats, conveniently forgetting umpires wouldn't give a lot of plumb calls back in the day! Even neutral umpires, like Billy "clown" Bowden or especially Bucknor were shite

We started using DRS since late 2016, come again. We often benefited during neutral umpires era, before that we had some very biased Indian umpires in home tests. Or do you think umpires never gave howlers in favor of India? Umpiring in 2001 Aus series was largely in our favor.

 

Cricket now is better, esp with DRS and anti-chucking measures, better tech for 3rd ump, more cameras to catch tamperers etc. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Gollum

[Gollum]

8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

England tour of India 2012

Rank turners and Ashwin averaged 50 in that series. He just tried too many things and didn't succeed. He was also slow through the air. Panesar who was quicker reaped rewards. Jadeja would have been handy in first 3 tests at Ahmedabad, Kolkata and Mumbai, although Ahmedabad was slow.

 

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

Rosy retrospection. Kumble and Harbhajan had many forgettable moments as well. 

 

2012 Eng tracks (Wankhede, Eden) were like normal 90s tracks. Did you compare them to Mumbai, 2004? Is this for real? Had you compared Mumbai (Clarke 6/9 ) with Nagpur/Mohali 2015 you would have had a point, but still that Mumbai track was much worse, did it last 2 days? Biggest joke in the history of pitch doctoring, and you are comparing it with tracks which saw 500/400 scores and 4-5 100s, hell Ashwin the then #8 got an unbeaten 90 on day 4 of 2012 Mumbai. 2016 Mumbai test (Kohli 235) had more surface deviation than 2012 as shown on live air graphics...day 2 and 3 are best time to bat there, batsmen let us down in 2012. 

 

Harbhajan and Kumble *ed it up in enough matches, Harbhajan for most of the 2000s in spinning conditions in India despite doosra. I am not even going to discuss his failures because it will run into pages. 

 

Regarding Kumble, legend especially at home. But on turners he had his share of * ups. 

- Mohali 2005 Pak...Razzag/Akmal rearguard after we reduced them to 200/6 by day 4 tea, same series Chinnaswamy test where he was smashed to oblivion, outbowled by Afridi, Kaneria, Arshad Khan

- Bangalore 1998 Aus...they chased 200 in their 4th innings on a crumbling wicket, for the loss of 1 wicket !!! One of the earliest matches I saw, Kumble did zilch despite bowling from one end throughout, on a track where Robertson (apart from Kasprowicz with his cutters) wrecked us in the previous innings.

- 2000 Mumbai, crumbling pitch where we allowed SA to chase 170 in 4th innings, young Kallis scored a very slow match winning knock

- 1999 Chepauk and Eden tests against Pak where Saqlain (mediocre test bowler) outbowled him...Afridi tore him apart in Chennai

There are more, if you include SL-> pitches that offered turn (not that 90s series)...even more. 

 

On flatter pitches (like Eng 2016) in India, Kumble too struggled. Example that disgraceful drawn series by NZ in India in 2003. There is a reason why we couldn't inflict whitewashes at home those days.  Not downplaying Kumble here, but let us not forget the failures of our ex-players just because of nostalgia factor. Failure to adapt is something many ATGs have gone through in their careers. 

Quote

 

England tour of India 2016

Flat pitches but weak batting line up. 3rd test - Ashwin took 7-fer and 4th test Jadeja. Those 7-fers were after India had piled up 600-700 runs after England had scored 400+ in first inning. I doubt that Bhajji could produce those spells of running through line up on those tracks. Can't say anything about Kumble. 2004 Chennai test v Aus and it was decent batting track against an ATG line up and yet he ran through them.

2004 Chennai track was just like 2012 Eng series tracks, maybe worse. How is this decent batting track and those 2 rank turners? 

Equivalent of 2016 Eng would be NZ 2003...against weaker batting line up than Eng. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Gollum

[mani sha]

On 10/11/2019 at 7:28 AM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yea right as if sanga wasnt a gr8 batsman.....ashwin made him his bunny

 

jadeja made clarke his bunny n clarke scored runs against bhajji n kumble in 2004 

 

Acc to u williamson, smith, root, abdv, sanga, cook arent good batsman 

 

 

Quality of batting is not the same as in the 90s . 
each team had 3-4 good players of spin . Going into 2000 teams were stronger . 
Post 2010 - look at india pakistan lanka and Australia - I don’t see anyone who is as good as 

that bench against spin -don’t see a de Silva or an Anwar or the mighty aussie lineup 

 

abdv - don’t rate him as high against spin 

root ,Williamson , cook are not the same class against spin . 
 

this decade has been more about pace - 90s and 2000s trundlers abound or wayward pace like shoaib . 
 

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, mani sha said:

Quality of batting is not the same as in the 90s . 

grass always looks greener on other side 

Future n past both look gr8

Quote

 

abdv - don’t rate him as high against spin 

he scored at an avg of 76 in 2007-08 series against india which had kumble bhajji 

Quote

 cook are not the same class against spin . 

Cook 

51 in india

55 in uae

61 in bang

48 in bang

 

Root

india- 51

uae- 57

 

Kuch bhi matalab

 

Quote

this decade has been more about pace - 90s and 2000s trundlers abound or wayward pace like shoaib . 
 

wayward pace ??? with that pace no one can be mcgrath. Its diff to control that kind of pace 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Sgattick10]

I just feel Bhajji/Kumble bowled to better batsmen then Jad/Ash. The mighty Aussies, Saffers, Sri Lankans even Pakiis had better batsmen back then.