How does Ashwin-Jadeja stack up against Kumble-Harbhajan?

[Trichromatic]

26 minutes ago, Sgattick10 said:

I just feel Bhajji/Kumble bowled to better batsmen then Jad/Ash. The mighty Aussies, Saffers, Sri Lankans even Pakiis had better batsmen back then. 

That doesn't make them better.

 

Difference in performance is way too big.

 

[vvvslaxman]

I think Ashwin is by far the best new ball spinner INdia has produced. He takes out gun wickets. 

[vvvslaxman]

Having seen the entire career of all 4 i can confidently say Ashwin is way way ahead of everyone else at home. Including Kumble. I still remember how he struggled to get Kamran Akmal and Razzaq out in the mohali test. They achieved an improbable draw. Same way in the same series on day 4 at Bangaluru  they beat the crap out of Kumble and Bhajji and posted 261 in 50 overs.  Kumble is effective when there is uneven bounce. Otherwise rule for most batsmen was, just treat him as a seam bowler. Also Kumble had the huge benefit of very poor pitch in the 90s. They were called designer pitches. Azhar/Wadekar went to the extreme.

[putrevus]

On 10/11/2019 at 10:39 PM, Trichromatic said:

England tour of India 2012

Rank turners and Ashwin averaged 50 in that series. He just tried too many things and didn't succeed. He was also slow through the air. Panesar who was quicker reaped rewards. Jadeja would have been handy in first 3 tests at Ahmedabad, Kolkata and Mumbai, although Ahmedabad was slow.

 

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

 

England tour of India 2016

Flat pitches but weak batting line up. 3rd test - Ashwin took 7-fer and 4th test Jadeja. Those 7-fers were after India had piled up 600-700 runs after England had scored 400+ in first inning. I doubt that Bhajji could produce those spells of running through line up on those tracks. Can't say anything about Kumble. 2004 Chennai test v Aus and it was decent batting track against an ATG line up and yet he ran through them.

 

To be continued...

You need fast bowlers to pitch in, 2012 Cook and KP played Ashwin and Ohja well.But Zak and co were totally ineffective in creating any chances. Zak while skilled went missing in many matches like Ishant has done in this series.Dhoni's captaincy was clueless too.

 

Even today Umesh was needed to break that Vernon- Maharaj partnership. They both were looking extremely comfortable again against spinners.

 

Anderson played a very vital role for England.

Edited October 13, 2019 by putrevus

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

 

 

 

[Khota]

As pure bowlers Kumble/Harbhajan combination was infinitely superior.

[mancalledsting]

I think Jadeja would have been good in Asian conditions, even against great batsmen of yesteryear. Rationale, he's fast and accurate. On Asian wickets, this combination seems to be lethal e.g. Kumble, Panesar and even Afridi. The quality of batsmen in test cricket is markedly less than in Kumble/Bhaji era (influence of t20 on techniques, decreased prominence of test cricket) etc. The tracks Jadeja/Ashwin have played on have largely been very spin friendly and they were supported by a more capable fast bowling attack. If I had to rank them I'd go Kumble, Jadeja, Harbhajan and then Ashwin. Bhaji's performance against Australia in 2001 is arguably Indian test crickets greatest ever performance across a series. 

[Gollum]

If only the Pataudi/Wadekar teams had a couple of Ishant/Bhuvi type quicks (not even Shami/Bumrah/Zak/Srinath class), I am sure Warne(insult to compare the disgusting Lankan chucker with him) would have competition in the form of Chandra/Bedi for spot in AT XI. 

 

My ranking:

1. Spin quartet

2. Ash/Jaddu (+Mishra, Jayant, Kuly)

3 Gupte/Mankad/Nadkarni

4. Kumble+Chauhan/Raju and later Sehwag/Sachin....

5. Whatever crap we fielded in the 80s...no wonder we kept on losing at home with that outstanding batting unit (till circa '86 we had a top 8 of Srikkanth, Gavaskar, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, GRV/Azhar, Kapil, Shastri, Kirmani/More and #9 Binny was as good a bat as Bhuvi)

Edited August 1, 2020 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

40 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

The tracks Jadeja/Ashwin have played on have largely been very spin friendly and they were supported by a more capable fast bowling attack

thats also another myth....there were few tracks only like in Ind-Sa series n Ind-Aus series , these many tracks even bhajji n kumble wud have played on.

42 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

I had to rank them I'd go Kumble, Jadeja, Harbhajan and then Ashwin. Bhaji's performance against Australia in 2001 is arguably Indian test crickets greatest ever performance across a series. 

Disagree, ill rate ashwin 2nd and 1st at home

bhajii at 4th  about aus series well absolute great but cant live on that for long also he had dodgy action in polite words.

even umesh avg better then bhajji at home, his avg is 28 at home.....greats around the world at home avg 18-23 types 

On days in home condition sehwag use to look more threatening then bhajji 

[Gollum]

Hope one day the records of all chuckers are expunged, law should apply retrospectively. For too long cheats have been allowed to flourish in a sport not meant for them. 

[zen]

Pre 90s, the Indian spinners bowled in relatively tough conditions even at home. If Kumble, Bhajji, Ashwin and Jadeja had bowled in 40s-mid 80s for e.g.,  there overall record could have be even worse. 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by zen

[Gollum]

36 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

thats also another myth....there were few tracks only like in Ind-Sa series n Ind-Aus series , these many tracks even bhajji n kumble wud have played on.

This myth was started by jealous Pakistanis and BCCI haters to downplay our home dominance some 4 years back..though it has been debunked many times they countinue to spout this nonsense because they can't handle our success at home which is now entering into the unimaginable realm....even ATG Aus never hit such highs like losing 1 test at home in 8 years and winning 90% of matches....even majority of our draws were because of weather/pollution (only 2 clean draws at home since 2013...Eng at Rajkot and Aus at Ranchi). Unfortunately some Indians have joined the bandwagon, a few jealous ex-players too add fuel to fire. 

 

I don't mind if they downplay our spin twins. But then give extra credit to our batters. Kohli and Pujara average in the 60s at home...accept that Kohli is better in these conditions than Sachin or Sunny thereby pushing the case to make him India's GOAT batsman (since he has been amazing in SENA as well). Accept that Pujara is the greatest batsman against spin in the history of the sport. Even Rohit may end up with some amazing numbers at home, averages 90 now I think. But they won't do that, our batsmen are successful at home because they are FTBs, our spinners are successful because they play on rank turners and hence our wins at home are because we doctor pitches, how can this duality be allowed. You can't have it both ways...they would like to believe that the pitch changes character after every innings in India, is that the case?  

Edited August 1, 2020 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Kohli and Pujara average in the 60s at home...accept that Kohli is better in these conditions than Sachin or Sunny thereby pushing the case to make him India's GOAT batsman (since he has been amazing in SENA as well).

exactly

Pujara avg 60 

kohli 70 at home

 

if pitches were so so dodgy then lets give these guys credit for batting better then any previous player

Edited August 1, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

@mancalledsting

and on the same pitches our fast bowlers are avg better then spinners

Shami avg 21 at home

Umesh 24.5

kumble- 24.8

bhuvi - 26

bhajji- 28.7

 

infact many fast bowlers avg better then bhajji in Indian conditions the so called made conditions for spinners and SG ball 

walsh - 18

roberts- 19

Mcgrath- 21

gillespie 21

holding 22

hadlee- 22

hoggard- 23 (most surprising one)

marshal 24

botham 25

kapil 26

srinath 26 

nash 27

akram 27

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

When ppl say Ashwin n jaddu hasnt bowled against top batsman- cook, stokes, root arent they top players

[Ankit_sharma03]

On 8/6/2020 at 7:14 PM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

When ppl say Ashwin n jaddu hasnt bowled against top batsman- cook, stokes, root arent they top players

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Kumble was better than others overseas. Not by much though. Even he had mixed returns. At home Kumble was very good. Especially in the 90s under wadekar India produced disgraceful pitches suiting any random spinners + Kumble.  90s were Kumble's golden period at home averaging 21.35  at a strike rate of 54.6  Overall decent spinner to go anywhere. Ashwin at home is something else. His strike rate is 49 which is better than Murali at home.  Genuine match winner. Most of the man of the series in Tests by an Indian.  There were many times he was the one provided the breakthrough with some magic ball.  Mere 71 tests 7 man of the series award. Undisputably he will be my no.1 spinner for India at home. Bhajji apart from that epic series didn't exactly set the stage on fire. He infact struggled a lot once doosra was taken away.  Both Kumble and Ashwin have perfectly legal action. So is Jadeja.   Jadeja is awesome at home given the numbers. But  Jadeja without Ashwin will not be able to run through sides on his own. Ashwin can.  At home Jadeja/Ashwin are force to reckon.  Kumble often had to bowl extremely long spells.  After a point they started treating him like a medium pacer as he didn't impart great turn. He relied on subtle natural variations that pitch offered. But he was extremely accurate with repeatable action. Overall at home Ashwin is the king. Abroad nobody is king. Probably Chandra. Kumble is better overall than others. Bhajji is midtier.

 

Match and series awards

Player	Span	Mat	Match Awards	Series Awards
R Ashwin	2011-2020	71	7	7
V Sehwag	2001-2013	103	8	5
SR Tendulkar	1989-2013	200	14	5
R Dravid	1996-2012	163	11	4
Harbhajan Singh	1998-2015	103	6	4
N Kapil Dev	1978-1994	131	8	4
A Kumble	1990-2008	132	10	4
M Azharuddin	1984-2000	99	5	3
SC Ganguly	1996-2008	113	6	3
Z Khan	2000-2014	92	5	3

[Vilander]

On 7/31/2020 at 7:27 AM, Khota said:

As pure bowlers Kumble/Harbhajan combination was infinitely inferior. 

Corrected. 

[Khota]

9 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Corrupted.