More often than not our overrated batsmen have been culprits in overseas tours

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

When a test batting lineup comprising of the likes of dravid.tendulkar,Azhar,Ganguly,laxman can fail miserably against ordinary opponents then what do we expect from these guys .And how hard is it to produce a decent opening pair ,gavaskar keeps mocking the pace bowlers calling them new ball bowlers not pacers,maybe we can call the opening batsmen  opening wickets.

We need specialist opening coaches to produce opening batsmen.

[sandeep]

24 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

We need specialist opening coaches to produce opening batsmen.

Won't help. 

 

Our domestic conditions and system is structured to produce top class middle order batsmen.  Batsmen who top run charts get to progress up the pecking order.  You can't change the weather and soil conditions all over India, to replicate ANUS countries.  The system is always going to produce guys like Mayank who can score 1600 runs in a Ranji season, but are all at sea with their batting methods, when the ball moves around.  

 

Its a structural challenge. Its the same reason why England cannot produce quality spinners for the longer format.  Their conditions and domestic games always put those players at a disadvantage, so the potential prospects never emerge.  The ones that do, have methods and techniques built for those conditions.  

 

You can't take a Sadagopan Ramesh, a Mayank Agarwal, or a Prithvi Shaw, and change his batting technique overnight, or even over 6 months.  Its a tough nut to crack. 

[Adi_91]

On 3/2/2020 at 10:50 AM, sandeep said:

Won't help. 

 

Our domestic conditions and system is structured to produce top class middle order batsmen.  Batsmen who top run charts get to progress up the pecking order.  You can't change the weather and soil conditions all over India, to replicate ANUS countries.  The system is always going to produce guys like Mayank who can score 1600 runs in a Ranji season, but are all at sea with their batting methods, when the ball moves around.  

 

Its a structural challenge. Its the same reason why England cannot produce quality spinners for the longer format.  Their conditions and domestic games always put those players at a disadvantage, so the potential prospects never emerge.  The ones that do, have methods and techniques built for those conditions.  

 

You can't take a Sadagopan Ramesh, a Mayank Agarwal, or a Prithvi Shaw, and change his batting technique overnight, or even over 6 months.  Its a tough nut to crack. 

But what prevents the BCCI from asking the players to play in English county teams?

 

i know they play in these A tours, but it has to be more structured.

[rollingstoned]

3 hours ago, Adi_91 said:

But what prevents the BCCI from asking the players to play in English county teams?

 

i know they play in these A tours, but it has to be more structured.

County teams nowadays can pick only 1 overseas player. This is something that adversely affected the padosis who outsourced the development of their players to county cricket which is why they have hardly produced any world class players this millennium.

[SK_IH]

Disagree with this assessment. It's not even a question really. India's first capable fast bowler came after 45 years of its existence, for major part of 90s it was Srinath or bust. Then came Prasad to assist & there was nothing to look beyond them. Even Prasad was not someone who would win you games, very good bowler but that's about it. 

Then came Zaheer, who himself rediscovered his talent after 6-7 years of cricket. Ishant Sharma had taken about a decade to become a decent bowler, though even now the new comer Bumrah is the spear head.

Shami, Bumrah & Ishant is first time in our long history we are enjoying a complete bowling attack, which is a disgrace really for a cricket made country. And I am fearing that even Bumrah will be ground to dust very soon as we really on him more & more to deliver.

I am not mentioning spinners, because rarely they have been impactful overseas. The famous quartet definitely won India matches but those were one-offs & a strategy which was never sustainable.

Edited December 23, 2020 by SK_IH

[SK_IH]

On 3/2/2020 at 9:11 AM, Gollum said:

Some examples to illustrate my point, who do you think the culprits are?

 

BARBADOS 1997

HARARE 2001

HAMILTON 2002

CAPE TOWN 2007

 

3 series wins (2 historic in WI, RSA) and a drawn series offered on a platter by bowlers. 

That may also be because the opposition bowlers bowled well & outbowled the opposition in the end. Our batsmen have had their faults but even lesser batting teams like Pakistan chalked up those victories in Eng/NZ during late 80s & 90s when their bowling attack became lethal. Ever since their bowling became mediocre post 2003, their competitive  days were over.

England's & NZ's steady rise in intl cricket over last decade & a half has been primarily due to bowling.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by SK_IH

[Lone Wolf]

Never understood India's terrible record in NZ..  They have been a mediocre Tests side till 2013..  Barring 2009 we have always returned empty handed more often than not.  The 2002 series was played on most venomous pitches in that decade & likes of Dravid & Sachin survived on those pitches but only our bowling was not even half decent to put up a fight.  Pakistan bashed kiwis almost everytime they went there just coz their bowling was more than decent. 

 

[Gollum]

29 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

The 2002 series was played on most venomous pitches in that decade & likes of Dravid & Sachin survived on those pitches but only our bowling was not even half decent to put up a fight.

Sachin had a torrid time. Fast bowlers kept us in those games and even gave a lead in one test after we were dismissed for 95, batsmen showed no spine.

 

Pak has a better record in Eng/NZ cos of 2 reasons: batting, ball tampering in 80s and 90s. Also check out batting records in those countries...India has 2 200s in Eng (Sunny, Dravid), Pak has 10 or 11. 40 yo YK and Misbah were scoring big in the 2016 series, even guys like Shafiq and Azhar Ali. 

[Gollum]

Angelo and Kusal Mendis batted for 4 sessions against Southee/Boult/Wagner/CdG to secure a draw in 2018 LINK

 

Mendis 141*(335) and Angelo 120*(323). Will we ever see an Indian pair do 50% of that overseas?

 

Shakib scored 217, Mushfiqur 159 in 2017, Wellington against Boult, Southee, Wagner. Santner, CdG, BD 595/8 dec LINK. Has there ever been an Indian double centurion in NZ? 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Gollum

[Sandeep99]

India bowling is test standard. These guys can get 20 wickets. Nothing special but quite decent and efficient - especially with Bumrah, Shami and Ishant 2.0.
 

Indian batting is below average. Spineless. At their best they can make250-350 in the first innings of an away test depending on the pitch and quality of attack. Against indifferent attacks, they can still score in 3rd innings especially if bowlers give them a lead of 100 odd. India is most useless when batting 2nd. No hopers in 4th innings and will fall like a pack of cards even against Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Afghanistan if chasing anything above 150. 

[R!TTER]

23 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sachin had a torrid time. Fast bowlers kept us in those games and even gave a lead in one test after we were dismissed for 95, batsmen showed no spine.

Everyone had a torrid time, the difference was as always the tail. IIRC NZ tail scored a fair bit more, you also forgot that those pitches were actually damp - in the second test India complained that the groundman was keeping the covers off for longer so that NZ would have an advantage when batting second. Any half decent team would be shot out on those pitches against (peak) Bond & Co with the exception of Oz perhaps, it continued the pattern even in the LO leg. The team bowling first, unless the game was D/N - had a massive advantage!

Edited December 23, 2020 by R!TTER

[Gollum]

@SK_IH individually our bowlers may not have been great but performed better as a collective unit. OTOH our famous, hyped test batsmen more often than not failed to do justice to their reputation overseas. Do you at least agree with this assertion? 

 

Also look at the ICC tournaments we won, 1983 (miracle by bowlers against that WI), 1985 (throughout the tourney), 2007 (esp against RSA, Pak), 2011 (QF, SF, F), 2013 (miracle F), all came on the back of bowlers being superb and clutch. Batsmen messed up badly in 2014 WT20 F, 2019 SF and when they had to step up and deliver a great performance (2003 F, 2015 SF, 2017 CT F) they miserably failed every single time. 1987, 1996 SF, 2017 CT F we blundered at the toss so TM deserves max blame in those cases. 

[Sandeep99]

13 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Angelo and Kusal Mendis batted for 4 sessions against Southee/Boult/Wagner/CdG to secure a draw in 2018 LINK

 

Mendis 141*(335) and Angelo 120*(323). Will we ever see an Indian pair do 50% of that overseas?

 

Shakib scored 217, Mushfiqur 159 in 2017, Wellington against Boult, Southee, Wagner. Santner, CdG, BD 595/8 dec LINK. Has there ever been an Indian double centurion in NZ? 

No chance. Sri Lanka and Bangladesh have batsmen who actually have a spine. For all their limited abilities, they still punch above their weights (especially Bangladesh). Mathews and Mendis are quite good actually.

 

Don't be surprised if Sri lanka again defeats South Africa in the next 2 weeks. Mental strength outweighs everything else in test matches. Indian batsmen including Lolli score 0 on that front.

[R!TTER]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

and when they had to step up and deliver a great performance (2003 F, 2015 SF, 2017 CT F) they miserably failed every single time.

That's false equivalence, you're likely not gonna chase 300 let alone 360 vs the best ODI side ever - on the grandest stage, back in 2003. It would take peak Jaya, SRT, Viv, ABD, Miandad, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Klusener, Kapil, Imran & even more luck to even get close to that lineup. The bowlers *ed up badly in 2003 finals, 2017 CT finals & yes 2015 SF as well, I'm not sure why you're defending them here?

 

Also you really think the reason why we'd won the 2011 QF, SF, F was mainly bowlers? Don't you remember the 1996 SF of Oz vs WI, was it all bowlers that time as well? Hint - it's that P word, this is why most tournament KOs even today are low scoring affairs more often that not!

Edited December 23, 2020 by R!TTER

[Lone Wolf]

21 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sachin had a torrid time. Fast bowlers kept us in those games and even gave a lead in one test after we were dismissed for 95, batsmen showed no spine.

 

Pak has a better record in Eng/NZ cos of 2 reasons: batting, ball tampering in 80s and 90s. Also check out batting records in those countries...India has 2 200s in Eng (Sunny, Dravid), Pak has 10 or 11. 40 yo YK and Misbah were scoring big in the 2016 series, even guys like Shafiq and Azhar Ali. 

Dravid scored some 70 odd in Ist test in tough batting conditions actually.  Sachin failed in the 1st test & then survived for 100 balls on a green mamba in 2nd test where no one scored a 50 from either side.  Bond was running through us in that tour.  Fleming with the bat was scoring crucial runs & Dada lost both the crucial tosses as well.  Zaheer had a great series though. 

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

- in the second test India complained that the groundman was keeping the covers off for longer so that NZ would have an advantage when batting second. 

2nd test India batted first and was 99 ao. Bowlers heroically came back and got NZ 94 ao. We started our 3rd innings mid-day and got shot down for 154, Dravid, SRT, VVS, Dada, Viru (#7) on paper were much better than that. Who knows another 50 odd runs and we would have been favorites. 

[Gollum]

12 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

That's false equivalence, you're likely not gonna chase 300 let alone 360 vs the best ODI side ever - on the grandest stage, back in 2003. It would take peak Jaya, SRT, Viv, ABD, Miandad, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Klusener, Kapil, Imran & even more luck to even get close to that lineup. The bowlers *ed up badly in 2003 finals, 2017 CT finals & yes 2015 SF as well, I'm not sure why you're defending them here?

Not defending the bowlers. Just that batsmen haven't done anything miraculous on the big stage to warrant all the hype. Bowlers did that in 1983 F, defending 180 odd against Lloyd's WI gunning for 3rd straight WC. I'd like to think that defending 180 against that WI was a much greater challenge than the ones our batsmen were presented with at least in 2015 and 2017. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Gollum

[R!TTER]

16 minutes ago, Gollum said:

2nd test India batted first and was 99 ao. Bowlers heroically came back and got NZ 94 ao. We started our 3rd innings mid-day and got shot down for 154, Dravid, SRT, VVS, Dada, Viru (#7) on paper were much better than that. Who knows another 50 odd runs and we would have been favorites. 

Yeah no that bowling attack NZ fielded was superior, no question about that. Peak Bond at home was 2x better than any other bowler India has ever had, the bigger issue was their dibbly dobblers though.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/best-day-of-series-saw-new-zealand-bat-their-way-to-win-113303

 

This will long be remembered as a Test series dominated by New Zealand's miserable early-summer weather, where bouncy pitches were complicated by excessive sideways movement.

 

But it will also be recalled as a series where New Zealand took their chances, and after a dreadful first day of catching in Wellington, they lifted their act so impressively that they never dropped a chance for the remainder of the series. And with so much movement creating so many edges that was crucial.

 

Such had been the competitive nature of this match that it was the first time since England played Australia in 1981 that any batsman had failed to score a half century in a Test. Of the 13 occasions in which that statistical oddity had occurred, this was only the second time, after the Birmingham Test 21 years ago, it involved a covered pitch.

 

In the final outcome, New Zealand played the conditions best, and while they are more used to them, they certainly are not expert in dealing with the movement off the pitch that occurred in the series. They had the benefit of winning the toss in both matches, but they also had the better bowling attack under the circumstances to make best use of the conditions and that ultimately told the story of the series.

Edited December 23, 2020 by R!TTER

[Majestic]

Our best performance overseas came in 2000s decade while 2010s has again gone down poor even though we should have actually done better in this decade.

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Yeah no that bolwing attack NZ fielded was superior, no question about that. Peak Bond at home was 2x better than any other bowler India had, the bigger issue was there dibbly dobblers though.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/best-day-of-series-saw-new-zealand-bat-their-way-to-win-113303

 

This will long be remembered as a Test series dominated by New Zealand's miserable early-summer weather, where bouncy pitches were complicated by excessive sideways movement.

 

But it will also be recalled as a series where New Zealand took their chances, and after a dreadful first day of catching in Wellington, they lifted their act so impressively that they never dropped a chance for the remainder of the series. And with so much movement creating so many edges that was crucial.

 

Such had been the competitive nature of this match that it was the first time since England played Australia in 1981 that any batsman had failed to score a half century in a Test. Of the 13 occasions in which that statistical oddity had occurred, this was only the second time, after the Birmingham Test 21 years ago, it involved a covered pitch.

 

In the final outcome, New Zealand played the conditions best, and while they are more used to them, they certainly are not expert in dealing with the movement off the pitch that occurred in the series. They had the benefit of winning the toss in both matches, but they also had the better bowling attack under the circumstances to make best use of the conditions and that ultimately told the story of the series.

Didn't NZ drew a series in Aus too in 2001 or around that? That team under Fleming was a top team.