'Washington Sundar doesn’t even spin the ball,' Harbhajan Singh questions off-spinner's Team India selection

[Chaos]

Bhajji u could even spin bowling but hardly anywhite ball wins 

[crictime]

Central contract grading / rating;

 

Jadeja - Grade A

Kuldeep - Grade B

Washington Sundar - Grade C

BCCI is rating Jadeja and Kukdeep as better spinners. Even Gambhir and Indian captains are using him after all spin options are utiised. So BCCI and think tank are on same page - they both dont rate hin better than other spinners and grading him and using him accordingly. 

[Forever Indian]

1 hour ago, crictime said:

Central contract grading / rating;

 

Jadeja - Grade A

Kuldeep - Grade B

Washington Sundar - Grade C

BCCI is rating Jadeja and Kukdeep as better spinners. Even Gambhir and Indian captains are using him after all spin options are utiised. So BCCI and think tank are on same page - they both dont rate hin better than other spinners and grading him and using him accordingly. 

 

Seniority plays a major part in these contract gradings, as one format players like Rohit and Kohli are on A+ grade contracts. Also have seen so many Grade A and B players suddenly without contract in following year because they are no longer in scheme of things.

 

So it all fluctuates and the contract grading happens only once a year, so it's not Black n White...

[Sooda]

4 hours ago, crictime said:

Central contract grading / rating;

 

Jadeja - Grade A

Kuldeep - Grade B

Washington Sundar - Grade C

BCCI is rating Jadeja and Kukdeep as better spinners. Even Gambhir and Indian captains are using him after all spin options are utiised. So BCCI and think tank are on same page - they both dont rate hin better than other spinners and grading him and using him accordingly. 

 

I would say that Jadeja at the moment is a batting AR and not a better bowler than Sundar. Captain and Team management hasn't realised it yet

[G_B_]

Play him as batter

[StraightDrive26]

Okay Washington Sundar has 48 wickets in T20Is at an economy rate of under 7. He has been very consistent in this format. It was very poor of SKY to not bowl him only because of Australia having two right handers in the middle. Dube+Sharma gave away 56 runs for 1 wicket in 4 overs, don't think Sundar could have done worse. He is used to bowling in power play and surely would have bowled better. Sundar is good enough to play all formats for India just as a batter. I am not sure how well he will do in the middle order but he has all the shots in the book and is technically a very sound batter. His bowling is a bonus and he is a very good bowler. His economy in ODIs is 4.86 and T20Is is 6.94 which is fantastic in this era. 

[bowl_out]

3 hours ago, StraightDrive26 said:

Okay Washington Sundar has 48 wickets in T20Is at an economy rate of under 7. He has been very consistent in this format. It was very poor of SKY to not bowl him only because of Australia having two right handers in the middle. Dube+Sharma gave away 56 runs for 1 wicket in 4 overs, don't think Sundar could have done worse. He is used to bowling in power play and surely would have bowled better. Sundar is good enough to play all formats for India just as a batter. I am not sure how well he will do in the middle order but he has all the shots in the book and is technically a very sound batter. His bowling is a bonus and he is a very good bowler. His economy in ODIs is 4.86 and T20Is is 6.94 which is fantastic in this era. 

 

Gill did the same thing with him in GT. Can't understand the obsession of not bowling offies to RHB. I also read somewhere that Washi's T20 stats are better against RHB than LHB

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, bowl_out said:

 

Gill did the same thing with him in GT. Can't understand the obsession of not bowling offies to RHB. I also read somewhere that Washi's T20 stats are better against RHB than LHB

 

More or less the same

 

vs Lefties   18.61 average 6.42  ER     21 sixes conceded 39 fours   215 dot balls

vs Righties  27.09 average 6.83 ER     21 sixes conceded, 42 fours 193 dot balls

 

career ER is 6.94 (due to extras he conceded)

 

WHenever we say off spin my mind thinks of part time off spinners. Off spinners have their own variety. Sundar's release a high release point. That trajectory is hard to line up against. He also uses the width of the crease.

[ShoonyaSifar]

6 hours ago, StraightDrive26 said:

Okay Washington Sundar has 48 wickets in T20Is at an economy rate of under 7. He has been very consistent in this format. It was very poor of SKY to not bowl him only because of Australia having two right handers in the middle. Dube+Sharma gave away 56 runs for 1 wicket in 4 overs, don't think Sundar could have done worse. He is used to bowling in power play and surely would have bowled better. Sundar is good enough to play all formats for India just as a batter. I am not sure how well he will do in the middle order but he has all the shots in the book and is technically a very sound batter. His bowling is a bonus and he is a very good bowler. His economy in ODIs is 4.86 and T20Is is 6.94 which is fantastic in this era. 

Suqndar's bowling went off the boil in last 2-3 years. From 2017-2022, he was used upfront in powerplay. Since then his T20 stocks went down. In IPL he doesn't get many games now since impact player rule was introduced (15 matches out of possible 45 in last 3 years), doesn't pick enough wickets.

 

In last 2 years, he has played mostly vs low rung T20 sides - Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and SL. 

 

Despite all this, good to see Agarkar and GG backing him. Needs a few more performances likd he did with the bat in last T20 or with the ball in last 2 ODIs to lock a spot across formats 

[tapandrun]

14 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Suqndar's bowling went off the boil in last 2-3 years. From 2017-2022, he was used upfront in powerplay. Since then his T20 stocks went down. In IPL he doesn't get many games now since impact player rule was introduced (15 matches out of possible 45 in last 3 years), doesn't pick enough wickets.

 

In last 2 years, he has played mostly vs low rung T20 sides - Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and SL. 

 

Despite all this, good to see Agarkar and GG backing him. Needs a few more performances likd he did with the bat in last T20 or with the ball in last 2 ODIs to lock a spot across formats 

No team (in white-ball)wants to play a player whose primary skill is off-spin. There are v.few +ive match-ups.

 

As for Sundar do not think he has the power game to be a batter at6/7/8 in white-ball. PPl think jadeja was not fit for t20is but they think sundar is..... this is strange.

 

Sundar's record in intnl games are vs lower ranked teams so those that not be taken on face value. Its okay if the team is developing him for SENA tours thats the only wa to develop some1 give them games. But he should not be in the plans for 1st 15 side. 

 

Ashwin was better off-spinner even in white-ball and had some batting talent if he and jadeja were unfit so is sundar.

Even this knock vs Aus the bowler was bowling in early 130 kmph and bowled in his arc the only place he as a 6 hitting shot- Chest high bouncer with easy pace where he can use the pace or hit leg side.

 

[vvvslaxman]

28 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Suqndar's bowling went off the boil in last 2-3 years. From 2017-2022, he was used upfront in powerplay. Since then his T20 stocks went down. In IPL he doesn't get many games now since impact player rule was introduced (15 matches out of possible 45 in last 3 years), doesn't pick enough wickets.

 

In last 2 years, he has played mostly vs low rung T20 sides - Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and SL. 

 

Despite all this, good to see Agarkar and GG backing him. Needs a few more performances likd he did with the bat in last T20 or with the ball in last 2 ODIs to lock a spot across formats 

 

SUndar is one guy who is always used in a way that it is impossible to shine. Batting at 8. Bowling his first over in 75th over. Yet he found a way to be impactful. Here we have Gill is getting chance after chance in T20. Yet to produce a single impactful innings 

[vvvslaxman]

23 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

No team (in white-ball)wants to play a player whose primary skill is off-spin. There are v.few +ive match-ups.

 

As for Sundar do not think he has the power game to be a batter at6/7/8 in white-ball. PPl think jadeja was not fit for t20is but they think sundar is..... this is strange.

 

Sundar's record in intnl games are vs lower ranked teams so those that not be taken on face value. Its okay if the team is developing him for SENA tours thats the only wa to develop some1 give them games. But he should not be in the plans for 1st 15 side. 

 

Ashwin was better off-spinner even in white-ball and had some batting talent if he and jadeja were unfit so is sundar.

Even this knock vs Aus the bowler was bowling in early 130 kmph and bowled in his arc the only place he as a 6 hitting shot- Chest high bouncer with easy pace where he can use the pace or hit leg side.

 

 

After Rohit sharma i don't see anyone hitting sixes against short ball like Sundar Same 130k bowler rushed Axar into playing a false shot. Most of our Indian batsmen get found out when they play pull shot.  He started at Gabba against Cummins in 2021. Then in ENgland back to back Tests he showed his range against short ball. Here again he smashed 20 rows back. In Australian conditions most of our batsmen are sitting ducks or can't hit sixes like this.  We saw how Dube played back of a length deliveries. It is not easy to hit like Sundar consistently does.  By the first six was against 140 kph delivery

 

Edited November 5 by vvvslaxman

[vvvslaxman]

Remeber Axar was hit for 3 sixes in world T20 by Ifitkar.  Then Klassen brutalized him WT20 final.  Now we had this 129 m eter six. WHy do we think Axar patel is a great bowler against right handers. Mostly right handers bash him. 

[tapandrun]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

After Rohit sharma i don't see anyone hitting sixes against short ball like Sundar Same 130k bowler rushed Axar into playing a false shot. Most of our Indian batsmen get found out when they play pull shot.  He started at Gabba against Cummins in 2021. Then in ENgland back to back Tests he showed his range against short ball. Here again he smashed 20 rows back. In Australian conditions most of our batsmen are sitting ducks or can't hit sixes like this.  We saw how Dube played back of a length deliveries. It is not easy to hit like Sundar consistently does. 

Yes Ind batter lacks the skill and the confidence to hit 6s in Aus's big grounds and raising balls. I mentioned this on one of the treads reagading why ind does not do good in Aus in Odis, Ind lacks ability to stack up runs in Odis. Ind batters gentle drives/pushes does not go to 4s and they donot have ability or courage to hit 6s on bigger grounds.

Rohit is capable hitter hence he is the most run getter fr Ind in Aus (odis) if not wrong. 

 

Sundar is tall and he use it to his advantage. Dube is not not good example he is already known to have issues with short/rising ball he just fund way to manage it in sc or sc like condition. Axar is also a make shift batter and yes he is doing better than expected but how many such players would you have have with obvious lack of power game in T20s- Gill, Axar, Sundar , Sanju in mo.

 

If next t20i wc would have been in Aus then there is no point of dube.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Yes Ind batter lacks the skill and the confidence to hit 6s in Aus's big grounds and raising balls. I mentioned this on one of the treads reagading why ind does not do good in Aus in Odis, Ind lacks ability to stack up runs in Odis. Ind batters gentle drives/pushes does not go to 4s and they donot have ability or courage to hit 6s on bigger grounds.

Rohit is capable hitter hence he is the most run getter fr Ind in Aus (odis) if not wrong. 

 

Sundar is tall and he use it to his advantage. Dube is not not good example he is already known to have issues with short/rising ball he just fund way to manage it in sc or sc like condition. Axar is also a make shift batter and yes he is doing better than expected but how many such players would you have have with obvious lack of power game in T20s- Gill, Axar, Sundar , Sanju in mo.

 

If next t20i wc would have been in Aus then there is no point of dube.

 

 

 

Sanju was bounced out thrice in Indain conditions by Archer. Sundar just has to improve straight sixes. He is a pretty strong guy. I think Sundar is a better bat than Axar patel. I am not sure why anyone would think Axar is a better T20 bowler than Sundar.

[tapandrun]

27 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Sanju was bounced out thrice in Indain conditions by Archer. Sundar just has to improve straight sixes. He is a pretty strong guy. I think Sundar is a better bat than Axar patel. I am not sure why anyone would think Axar is a better T20 bowler than Sundar.

No one thinks Axar is top t20 bowler that's why he was not making into the side 2-3 yrs back. He only became a regular when team realized that Chahal can never be in playing 11 in an icc -event. He or jadeja plays because they have some batting ability plus Ind does not have any leg-spin options who can bat or for that matter a good leg-spinner. And if a team does not have a leg-spinner then next best thing is LA orthodox.

 

Here is how spinners are stacked in white-ball :: Mystery>LA wrist spin >Leg-spin>> LA orthodox >>> Off spin need to be bowled by a proper batter.

 

Axar is limited as a batter and a bowler but he is a good over all player to be included in the team. He can bat at any position and amongst v.few who can hold nerves, v.safe catches and a good fielder with v.strong throws.

 

And for 6s he got hit Bhumrah got hit for 6s by some no-name Frhan, its t20 some1 will get tonked and if some top hitter like Klasan or Tim david on their day and you are just regular kind of spinner then there is not much one can do.

Aus hit kuldeep too in previous game and in Pak game too he was getting hit before Varun provided the break through

 

Edited November 5 by tapandrun

[bsriharsha]

With bats these days , even mishits go for sixes

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

No one thinks Axar is top t20 bowler that's why he was not making into the side 2-3 yrs back. He only became a regular when team realized that Chahal can never be in playing 11 in an icc -event. He or jadeja plays because they have some batting ability plus Ind does not have any leg-spin options who can bat or for that matter a good leg-spinner. And if a team does not have a leg-spinner the next best thing LA orthodox.

 

Here is how spinners are tacked in white-ball :: Mystery>LA wrist spin >Leg-spin>> LA orthodox >>> Off spin need to be bowled by a proper batter.

 

Axar is limited as a batter and a bowler but he is a good over all player to be included in the team. He can bat at any position and amongst v.few who can hold nerves, v.safe catches and a good fielder with v.strong throws.

 

And for 6s he got hit Bhumrah got hit for 6s by some no-name Frhan, its t20 some1 will get tonked and if some top hitter like Klasan or Tim david on their day and you are just regular kind of spinner then there is not much one can do.

Aus hit kuldeep too in previous game and in Pak game too he was getting hit before Varun provided the break through

 

 

This order totally depends on their ability. We can't randomly toss the ball to a left arm spinner hoping he would click. I saw this guy in 100. An off spinner. Bowled in death. Mousely. Look how he bowls.  He bowls a 75 mph yorker bowling off spin

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx1lqF1LG9U

 

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, bsriharsha said:

With bats these days , even mishits go for sixes

 

Not over mid wicket.  You need to be someone like Dre Russ, TIm David for mishits to go for sixes.

[tapandrun]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

This order totally depends on their ability. We can't randomly toss the ball to a left arm spinner hoping he would click. I saw this guy in 100. An off spinner. Bowled in death. Mousely. Look how he bowls.  He bowls a 75 mph yorker bowling off spin

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx1lqF1LG9U

 

Yes saw him he can bowl upto 123 kmph with 2 step run-up not your run of the mill off-spinner.