'Washington Sundar doesn’t even spin the ball,' Harbhajan Singh questions off-spinner's Team India selection

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, tapandrun said:

Yes saw him he can bowl upto 123 kmph with 2 step run-up not your run of the mill off-spinner.

 

YOu do know KUldeep bowls at 117 kph right?  Varun C touches 109 too. OFf spinners do the same. They rely on variation. Off spin is easiest craft to master given that most of the players in the world are right handers. But good off spinners have variations. That includes Sundar. Ashwin was bowling to Gayle in power play.  For India among spinners Sundar trajectory is not the usual trajectory you see from floaty off spinners. IT dips  This is his debut Test where ball straightened.  

 

 

 

[tapandrun]

30 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

YOu do know KUldeep bowls at 117 kph right?  Varun C touches 109 too. OFf spinners do the same. They rely on variation. Off spin is easiest craft to master given that most of the players in the world are right handers. But good off spinners have variations. That includes Sundar. Ashwin was bowling to Gayle in power play.  For India among spinners Sundar trajectory is not the usual trajectory you see from floaty off spinners. IT dips  This is his debut Test where ball straightened.  

 

 

 

 

Yes, both kuldeep and Varun already had an element of mystery and ability to turn bowl both ways and they added a v.fast one variation to their quiver.

 

And a run of the mill off-spinner does not have that element of mystery and can not bowl dusra these days. Making them high risk prospect to include in playing 11 knowing well before hand that they will not finish their overs and would have lot of -ive match-ups , thats the reason most proper t20 sides have moved away from having specialist off-spinner in the team and are using their batters to bowl some off spin when needed. 

 

This was the reason sundar was benched even in IPL and only got the play last season because gt didnt had many options. As there any other proper t20i side that has a specialist off-spinner in playing 11. Think only Bd has hasan miraj. All off-spinner these days are proper batters who are bowling some off-spin when needed 

 

Ashwin got gayle only once that was a surprise move that worked , it not like everytime it was working and a repeatable thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[bsriharsha]

Sundar needs to work more on his variations though. Probably spend some time watching Ashwin

 

I'm not saying he needs to develop a carrom ball but he needs some more variations. A better arm ball for instance. Better use of the crease to create more angles. 

 

Just look at santner bowling as a prototype.

 

 

[tapandrun]

1 minute ago, bsriharsha said:

Sundar needs to work more on his variations though. Probably spend some time watching Ashwin

 

I'm not saying he needs to develop a carrom ball but he needs some more variations. A better arm ball for instance. Better use of the crease to create more angles. 

 

Just look at santner bowling as a prototype.

 

 

Santner is LA, he already had +ive match-ups. Think he should some how need to develop a ball that turns away from RH batter.

And this is not just for Sundar but for any off-spinner who are trying to play as specialist. else better t20 sides will prefer batter bowling some off-spin.

Or some1 like livingstome who bowl leg and off spin depending up on batter, even Ayub who has a bowl which leaves rh batter.

[vvvslaxman]

11 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

Yes, both kuldeep and Varun already had an element of mystery and ability to turn bowl both ways and they added a v.fast one variation to their quiver.

 

And a run of the mill off-spinner does not have that element of mystery and can not bowl dusra these days. Making them high risk prospect to include in playing 11 knowing well before hand that they will not finish their overs and would have lot of -ive match-ups , thats the reason most proper t20 sides have moved away from having specialist off-spinner in the team and are using their batters to bowl some off spin when needed. 

 

This was the reason sundar was benched even in IPL and only got the play last season because gt didnt had many options. As there any other proper t20i side that has a specialist off-spinner in playing 11. Think only Bd has hasan miraj. All off-spinner these days are proper batters who are bowling some off-spin when needed 

 

Ashwin got gayle only once that was a surprise move that worked , it not like everytime it was working and a repeatable thing.

 

 

 

 

 

Mahedi is an off-spinner who often opens the bowling. HE has a great ER. Mujeeb is an off-spinner too. Nabhi is an off-spinner too. I don't agree that every left-arm spinner is superior to off off-spinner. I remember a match where Axar was given just 1 over because there were two left-handers at the crease. Rahul Dravid had to explain at the press conference. Based on this you could extend this logic to Tests. But they don't do that.  Lyon is still the best spinner in Australia. Obsession with match-ups is the reason why some spinners suffer.  Hesson after saying Nawaz is the best spinner in the world was hardly given a over against India in Asia cup given that we had a lot of left handers.

[tapandrun]

24 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Mahedi is an off-spinner who often opens the bowling. HE has a great ER. Mujeeb is an off-spinner too. Nabhi is an off-spinner too. I don't agree that every left-arm spinner is superior to off off-spinner. I remember a match where Axar was given just 1 over because there were two left-handers at the crease. Rahul Dravid had to explain at the press conference. Based on this you could extend this logic to Tests. But they don't do that.  Lyon is still the best spinner in Australia. Obsession with match-ups is the reason why some spinners suffer.  Hesson after saying Nawaz is the best spinner in the world was hardly given a over against India in Asia cup given that we had a lot of left handers.

yes mahedi Bd, if some1 plays on Bd pitches they can have any kind of spinner and thats the reason they never tried proper leg-spinner till rishad becasue they never felt it need one but out side Bd they kept feeling the need of one.

 

Mujeeb is a mystery spinner can spin the ball both ways, nabi is like Afg finisher and power hitter think he has best SR amongst Afgn batters in t20is.

 

Yes exactly the point axar didnt bowl because there was the -ive match up there were 2 LH batter, this is what I have been trying to expalin. It doe not matter if there is ortodox LA/RA spinner and there is -ive match no team will take that risk. In intnl cricket there are more rh batter hence off-spinner has a -ive match up.

 

Say if Ind plays  a series of 3 matches vs a team of 5 lh batters then there is no point of having LA spinner and a off-spinner will have a +ive match-up.

 

Test cricket is different batter are not going after the bowlers and wkts can be earned by consistency and putting the ball over and over again at same spot.

 

Match-up is no obsession its just the natural hitting arc of a batter is on their leg-side and if pace is not offered (as is in case of spinners) the batter can not just use the pace and hit 6s in off-side, natral power hitting arc is at leg-side of a batter. And yes there can be few exceptional hitters in off-side too but those are not many

 

It does not matter what hesson says if he is not saying the truth, nawaz is not even a part-time bowler,Think he has a dodgy action . Coach is just saying to boast up the confidence. Like Warne  said jadeja that he is a rockstar when jadeja was nothing

 

 

Edited November 5 by tapandrun

[bsriharsha]

3 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Santner is LA, he already had +ive match-ups. Think he should some how need to develop a ball that turns away from RH batter.

And this is not just for Sundar but for any off-spinner who are trying to play as specialist. else better t20 sides will prefer batter bowling some off-spin.

Or some1 like livingstome who bowl leg and off spin depending up on batter, even Ayub who has a bowl which leaves rh batter.

I meant as a prototype on how to bowl for a finger spinner. Whether he's a SLA or off spinner doesn't matter so much

[G_B_]

As i said before, i think sunder should be a batter who can bowl 4 to 6 overs. Keep it tight.

 

Bat at 6 or 7 in tests. Bowl 5 to 10 overs as the 6th bowler.