TM might be morons but why arent youngsters grabbing their chances?

[zen]

25 minutes ago, maniac said:

No.

 

There shouldn't even be a debate as to why Pant needs to go back to domestics or discuss flaws in his game. Even now we are talking about reasons why Pant should be backed rather than pulling up performances and saying, are you out of your mind to even suggest he should be dropped.

 

Pandya well at this point he gets a guaranteed slot because there is no other alternative. Just for argument sake let's say Saini starts picking up wickets in a bunch and then plays some cameos at the death, would we even think of Pandya as indispensable?

 

Had Pant or Pandya won us the semis or the match vs England, no one would even question their slots for the next 5 years. Pant has had opportunities at no.4 after a top order collapse where he could have made a 100 at least on 2-3 occasions. He had opportunities where he could have scored a 10* to get India over the line but he failed.

 

I am not limiting it to these guys but most youngsters that have played under this TM.

First you started with listing random performances across multiple formats of selected players whom you think as success but ignored multiple good performances by these players across multiple formats - Pant has 100s in Tests, good innings in LOIs (ODIs/T20s) .... Pandya has a 90 in SA, 100 in SL, 5er in Eng, along with some good performances in WC (including that over in T20 WC that won Ind the game vs BD, his big hitting in 2019 WC), performances vs Aus at home .... and Shaw has a test 100!

 

2nd, you contradict the 1 by saying if x-y had won Ind a SF, no one would question their performance for 5 years (now one match counts) - and when the guys you listed as success haven’t won Ind that many SFs or Fs (How many WC SF/Fs each of Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid, etc., have won?)

 

and you also wrote the below:

 

”If Gill gets a run in 3 odis, he should hit 2 100's or a 150 or a man of the match performance or something”

 

Since you are comparing these guys to Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly - Do you know for e.g.  when Tendulkar hit his first ODI 100? 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by zen

[Ankit_sharma03]

@maniac- for the clutch nonsense u talk about, u need to study a bit more about scorecard. No one player will win u a game or if it happens that wud be once in blue moon like kapil 175 . The xamples of yuvi, raina u gave just study the scorecard with the eye u talk about 

 

 

 

Do u seen any one else performing above ??? unless u expected him to chase 320 alone 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now do u see why those knocks became clutch coz it had contribution from others. Keep just their innings and those matches wud be lost 

 

 

 

If u still wanna live in denial go ahead.....coz all these names ur talking pant,pandya, saini, shaw will end up with great career and this thread wud be a laughing stock 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Add  kohli captaincy to inconsistent years of rohit, zak, yuvi and i bet those guys wudnt even have performed that much what they did. 

A player goes in diff mental space in ground knowinh he has next 10 games secure then going in a match knowing even if he performs he can be dropped. 

Its no rocket science tht players under kohli in RCB has had similar issues 

 

Also u cant expect 2 humans beings to react same. To get better out of someone u need to back them and for some u need to push to the wall ....its called man management eg kohli himself he gets better when someone sledges him but not the same case with others.

[ShoonyaSifar]

41 minutes ago, maniac said:

Trust me If Pandya would have won us the semis, he would have been hailed greater than Kapil Dev on this very forum who scored 175 vs Zimbabwe in a league game where as Pandya did it against a strong Nzl in semis.

 

Rohit played 2-3 clutch knocks in his first year. WT20 vs SA, Pak, CB Series

 

Kohli had a break out year vs SA 1-2 years after debut where he was the premier bat among some big names. Even before that he was scoring against every opponent in every chance he got.

 

Yuvraj 1-2 years after debut played that knock in Natwest and then WC vs Pak and not to forget his debut knock.

 

Raina debuted in 2007, Had a stellar IPL. 2-3 years after debut he had a T20 100 in a WC,Played clutch knocks in 2 WC games, Played a back to the wall knock vs Pak Asia cup

 

Where are the clutch knocks or spells from the current youngsters? Stop making excuses

None of them played under a moron captain for whom all that matters is his own stardom. Everything else is secondary. Yuvraj had Dada, Raina and Rohit made their debuts under Dravid/Dhoni 1.0, Kohli under Dhoni 1.0. Very supporting captains who knew how to groom young players

Had Kohli been captain during their time, all would finished their career after 25-30 ODIs.

[Cricketphile]

I think what has happened in the recent years is that we have had too much talent coming through due to the ipl, strong infrastructure and money in the administration. Although we may think more is better, this leads to a condition called the ‘paradox of choice’. This is why sometimes when there r many food options, we end up eating less, or when we go to a dating app, we r ‘spoiled for choice’ and end up selecting lesser ppl. 
I think indian cricket is similar in that the selectors know that they don’t have to wait, or invest too much time in any youngster. They r all ‘replaceable’ and they can just find 5 ppl for each person they try. This ironically means no one is set and no ones getting enough chances 
 

[bowl_out]

1 hour ago, zen said:

and these guys haven’t  done that?

Kinda agree with the OP here..

Even though I don't expect these guys to perform every time they come in, I would like to see at least 1-2 impact performances from Pant, Shaw, Saini in the formats that we are backing them.. I can't remember one LOI innings where Pant made an impact. Yeah, he got dropped unfairly after his concussion, but he's played 16 ODIs and 28 T20Is (and this isn't a small number), but there is not one defining innings that you can remember or call match winning.

[maniac]

48 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

@maniac- for the clutch nonsense u talk about, u need to study a bit more about scorecard. No one player will win u a game or if it happens that wud be once in blue moon like kapil 175 . The xamples of yuvi, raina u gave just study the scorecard with the eye u talk about 

 

 

 

Do u seen any one else performing above ??? unless u expected him to chase 320 alone 

 

Now do u see why those knocks became clutch coz it had contribution from others. Keep just their innings and those matches wud be lost 

 

 

 

If u still wanna live in denial go ahead.....coz all these names ur talking pant,pandya, saini, shaw will end up with great career and this thread wud be a laughing stock 

Who is in denial of Pant, Shaw, Gill or Saini's talent?

 

Also you keep bringing Pandya's spell against Bangladesh in 2016 as a clutch performance, it was a case of Bangladesh batsmen's stupidity that won India the game because they had almost sealed the deal in the first 3 balls which were pies. You are making it seem as if it was a 2 W's or 2 C's type of spell where he ran through the Bangladesh team with unplayable Yorkers/ bouncers.

 

Yuvraj and Kaif's knock in 2003 WC was against a strong bowling attack and even though they got a solid start, the match could have still gone either ways considering our inexperience low down the order and the potency of the attack who had a habit of running through the tail. That is called a clutch knock.  I am sorry but I don't even see 1 knock of such quality among the current crop under similar circumstances.

 

Can you give me an example?

 

Same goes for their 2002 Natwest final knock when the game was almost over.

 

As far as bowling there were doubts if  Bumrah would make the transition from LOI's and he did it like a champ. Apart from 1 test in Nzl, he has always delivered. When you reach that level, you can get a  pass for a few games or even series.

 

I have been a vocal critic of this TM from day 1 but sorry you can't put everything in their corner and run away from all responsibility.

 

In fact this is the test of character for any player to make an impact under such a TM.

[zen]

3 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

Kinda agree with the OP here..

Even though I don't expect these guys to perform every time they come in, I would like to see at least 1-2 impact performances from Pant, Shaw, Saini in the formats that we are backing them.. I can't remember one LOI innings where Pant made an impact. Yeah, he got dropped unfairly after his concussion, but he's played 16 ODIs and 28 T20Is (and this isn't a small number), but there is not one defining innings that you can remember or call match winning.

Pant should ideally be batting in the top order. Scored a 40 not out of 28 balls in a T20 in NZ. Outside of that has good performances (65*, 58, ....) vs. WI .... In tests, he has 2 100s in SENA, a feat that no specialist WK has achieved  .... Shaw has test 100s

 

These guys have made impact despite the discussed challenges  

 

 

 

 

[maniac]

So @Ankit_sharma03 and @zen you guys are telling me that it is solely the captains responsibility and no fault of the player even though they fail to make an impact or find themselves in situations to close games?

 

I do agree if a player is insecure it does play on his mind this is where the TM comes in and they have been pathetic at it.

 

However when you are in the X1, if you find yourself in a 25/4, or 40 needed from 20 balls or defending a sub par target it is solely on the player to deliver or make his contribution.

[Ankit_sharma03]

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Who is in denial of Pant, Shaw, Gill or Saini's talent?

 

Also you keep bringing Pandya's spell against Bangladesh in 2016 as a clutch performance, it was a case of Bangladesh batsmen's stupidity that won India the game because they had almost sealed the deal in the first 3 balls which were pies. You are making it seem as if it was a 2 W's or 2 C's type of spell where he ran through the Bangladesh team with unplayable Yorkers/ bouncers.

for a wkt to ball the ball also have to be in slot specially the last one one where the batsman missed , many including stokes have fcked it up

dont u make shardul 20 runs sound as some great match winning knocks when they are cameos 

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Yuvraj and Kaif's knock in 2003 WC was against a strong bowling attack and even though they got a solid start, the match could have still gone either ways considering our inexperience low down the order and the potency of the attack who had a habit of running through the tail. That is called a clutch knock.  I am sorry but I don't even see 1 knock of such quality among the current crop under similar circumstances.

sorry if u dont watch cricket cant help 

 

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Can you give me an example?

sure manish pandey in Aus 

Iyer n KL has played a few in last year 

 

Shaw, gill, pant  havent even played enough and in case of pandya ur ego to to big to accept anything 

 

A sad reality is we play so many bilaterals now that knocks under pressure are considered to be in less relevant matches

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Same goes for their 2002 Natwest final knock when the game was almost over.

game wasnt over it was just that we were use to thinking game is over when tendulkar gets out 

chasing 180 in natwest vs when pandya had to chase more 270 alone is a massive diff 

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

As far as bowling there were doubts if  Bumrah would make the transition from LOI's and he did it like a champ. Apart from 1 test in Nzl, he has always delivered. When you reach that level, you can get a  pass for a few games or even series.

n every player has had bumrah type career ??? As far as i remeber the last good fast bowler considered by India Zak took 7 years to came into his own 

 

ur telling me 2 career will have same progress ?

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

I have been a vocal critic of this TM from day 1 but sorry you can't put everything in their corner and run away from all responsibility.

 

In fact this is the test of character for any player to make an impact under such a TM.

then hold on to ur test coz these guys havent played enough. 

U have begged for rohit sharma getting more test chances which is around 30+ test now and ur patience with others is not even for 20 test or 50 odi 

[maniac]

Another example is Dube. He shouldn't have gotten a cap to begin with but when he did, he did get a good run. He was used as a 5th bowler when he just wasn't good enough to be the 5th bowler. He was then promoted to No.3 for a few games and did get a flukey 50. Regardless of the quality of the knock he did make the most of it. However it was what it was, he didn't have the skill or talent to sustain. However all he had to do is play another decent knock and would have been in contention. He blew it. So how can TM take the blame?

 

Yes selectors fault for picking him and TM fault for playing him, however him being discarded solely lies on him.

[ShoonyaSifar]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

So @Ankit_sharma03 and @zen you guys are telling me that it is solely the captains responsibility and no fault of the player even though they fail to make an impact or find themselves in situations to close games?

 

I do agree if a player is insecure it does play on his mind this is where the TM comes in and they have been pathetic at it.

 

However when you are in the X1, if you find yourself in a 25/4, or 40 needed from 20 balls or defending a sub par target it is solely on the player to deliver or make his contribution.

Captain’s responsibility is to ensure young players feel secure in the team, are clear about their roles so that they can play freely and to shield them from any criticism. Here we have a captain who publicly abuses young players, backs only his friends and yesmen, has created a clique and uses his media clout for targeted campaigns against youngsters he does not like. Natural for a young player to be mentally scared in such a team environment.

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

So @Ankit_sharma03 and @zen you guys are telling me that it is solely the captains responsibility and no fault of the player even though they fail to make an impact or find themselves in situations to close games?

no im telling u have patience or else there is a guy on this forum who called KL not talented n suddenly has gone missing ....ull face a similar result.

A talent will find its way sooner or later 

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

I do agree if a player is insecure it does play on his mind this is where the TM comes in and they have been pathetic at it.

 

However when you are in the X1, if you find yourself in a 25/4, or 40 needed from 20 balls or defending a sub par target it is solely on the player to deliver or make his contribution.

dig deep 

our top 3 has been so good that 25/4 has comeup once in 10 matches that to in pressure games which by then they had no experience of . In 90s n 2000s it was more regular so players had regular experience of that situtation

 

Now remind me when did yuvi n rohit in their earlier career took team from 25/4 kind of situation to good situation . The 1st time yuvi did was in 2005 against Sa that means 5 years into his career

[maniac]

1 minute ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Captain’s responsibility is to ensure young players feel secure in the team, are clear about their roles so that they can play freely and to shield them from any criticism. Here we have a captain who publicly abuses young players, backs only his friends and yesmen, has created a clique and uses his media clout for targeted campaigns against youngsters he does not like. Natural for a young player to be mentally scared in such a team environment.

No one is defending captain or coach. They have a lot of flaws. However if a player gets so mentally disturbed that he is not able to translate it when he gets an actual opportunity then it is the player's problem? How can you expect such a mentally weak players to start delivering in clutch situations miraculously if they have a better TM?

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Another example is Dube. He shouldn't have gotten a cap to begin with but when he did, he did get a good run. He was used as a 5th bowler when he just wasn't good enough to be the 5th bowler. He was then promoted to No.3 for a few games and did get a flukey 50. Regardless of the quality of the knock he did make the most of it. However it was what it was, he didn't have the skill or talent to sustain. However all he had to do is play another decent knock and would have been in contention. He blew it. So how can TM take the blame?

 

Yes selectors fault for picking him and TM fault for playing him, however him being discarded solely lies on him.

a i dont get it how do u term it as fluke ,did he get runs by edges if not thats not fluke....he middled everything and he got his timing right and thats not fluke.

2nd he earned his chances only ur the one who doesnt follow A-cricket. We needed a power hitting option n who cud bowl so he was the one.

 

He wasnt upto the mark thats his problem 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

No one is defending captain or coach. They have a lot of flaws. However if a player gets so mentally disturbed that he is not able to translate it when he gets an actual opportunity then it is the player's problem? How can you expect such a mentally weak players to start delivering in clutch situations miraculously if they have a better TM?

 

 

like they have in past , most player perform with backing only. Its not about being weak...its about having a sureity to play ur own game. How many examples can u think of who performed under insecurity ...the last one i can think is dhawan in many who performs when he is about to get dropped. 

How can an attacking player play his natural game when he knws he can be dropped, why wud he attack rather he play for his runs. U cant tell an attacking player to play risk free cricket coz then its riskfree cricket

Edited March 9, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

a i dont get it how do u term it as fluke ,did he get runs by edges if not thats not fluke....he middled everything and he got his timing right and thats not fluke.

2nd he earned his chances only ur the one who doesnt follow A-cricket. We needed a power hitting option n who cud bowl so he was the one.

 

He wasnt upto the mark thats his problem 

And that's the premise of this entire thread. Thank you very much

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, maniac said:

And that's the premise of this entire thread. Thank you very much

many players are given a chance who here can tell by assurity that player will end up as good or bad ? No one can predict how careers end , a selectors job is to give what team wants n reward perfomance also having an eye for talent. At the end it ll depend on player. For all the flak dube had a 50 n 1-2 good bowling spells in short career....

Rayudu was termed as next sachin did any thought that he wud look one of the weakest against pace n bounce like 90s batsman use to, cant blame selectors for that 

 

[Forever Indian]

Maniac ji, two of your long backed players Ishant and Rohit took their own sweet time to start performing consistently and they could achieve that only because they were backed by TM. Each player has a different graph some start with a bang and then have a downward spiral before settling down. Some take a bit of time at start and then gradually become consistent.

 

No one in the history of the game has performed consistently when he has been in and out of team (barring injuries).

[ShoonyaSifar]

40 minutes ago, maniac said:

No one is defending captain or coach. They have a lot of flaws. However if a player gets so mentally disturbed that he is not able to translate it when he gets an actual opportunity then it is the player's problem? How can you expect such a mentally weak players to start delivering in clutch situations miraculously if they have a better TM?

 

 

There is a reason why even  legends like Sachin, Dada, Sehwag have publicly said how the toxic environment under Greg Chappel impacted their performance. All of them flourished under Kirsten immediately after Chappel’s exit. Will you call them mentally weak?