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NEP language fiasco


sandeep

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33 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

He is a CS professor in OKU and has written many books on consciousness. A KP as well. And a Padma Shri as well

 

 

Is English essential from pre-school as it is sold in India now?

I am, and have been a fan of his for decades.  But he is an example who overcame his late start disadvantage with English, in no small part due to his intellect.  Just because he succeeded, doesn't mean others automatically will.  The owner/founder of the Wendy's fast food chain is famously a high school drop-out.  Just because he became a billionaire, doesn't mean that most high school dropouts can do the same. 

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Even if it is proven 100% that learning in your mother tongue gives you a huge advantage, implementing it in India is extremely difficult if not impossible. The diversity of language - not just nationwide but even within cities and towns - is mindboggling. 

 

For many many people, local language is not necessarily mother tongue. 

 

The only way to make this happen is to restrict mobility, homogenize language within each state, and shove it down everyone's throat who lives in that state.  If Kak was working in Chennai, and had to hear this "Your MT is Hindi, Saar, aanaa inneelirindu onpayyan Tamil-la thaan padikkanum. Mind it" I'll bet you he's taking the next cab to American International School.  

 

Two choices:  (1) Send Kak back to Delhi or UP or wherever up North he's from OR (2) Declare Hindi the national language and teach everyone in Hindi medium - then we become China or Korea.      

Edited by BacktoCricaddict
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5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

1. East Asian success wasn't owed to working their fingers to the bone. That's a lowkey racist trope that many Indians guzzle down. Perhaps to hide their own insecurities. The irrefutable fact is that these countries didn't pay *any* penalty - social and economic - for discarding english and choosing their own for pedagogical purposes. 

 

2. Rote learning is a direct consequence of linguistic impediment. Rote learning is what students are reduced to when they are not comfortable and confident enough in/with a language - to dissect and play around with concepts. It limits their creative space. Learning in their mother tongue prevents creative stultification.

... and it worked because "their own" = 1.  

 

 

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Just now, sarchasm said:

There *is* in fact a consensus among linguists that a child learns best in the language he's immersed in  - at home, with friends socializing, and of course school.

 

The rest of your post raises a good point about the modalities, logistics, and administrative side of the new proposal. But it is something that can be worked out.

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

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5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Way to miss the point. Indians having a gazillion languages is not an issue. AT ALL. The point is to teach students in the language that they grow up with - it enriches both the student and the language itself.

I think we are talking past each other.  For implementation, it *is* the issue.  The biggest one.  When MT =/= local language, how do you fix the problem?  

 

My mother tongue is Palakkad Tamizh.  I grew up in Bengaluru.  I was immersed in Tamizh at home.  My MT.  Learning in Kannada medium or English medium is the same for me.  Or do I demand Tamizh medium in Bengaluru just for me?  Chaplee yEttashte.    

Edited by BacktoCricaddict
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10 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

From what I understand, there is the option to acquire education is English too esp. from Grade 6 if I am not wrong. 

 

Also nothing wrong with plucking coconuts or driving taxis as well if people prefer to do that. Another cultural negative that needs to be weeded out is the disparagement of a variety of professions. People should be encouraged to do what they find interesting including being teachers, mechanics, etc., rather than equating success mainly with becoming a business tycoon or a C level executive.  

Edited by zen
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7 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Not being immersed in one language - being proficient in multiple languages growing up - isn't a problem at all. It's amusing to me that you think I am implying being immersed in multiple languages is some kind of an impediment to learning.

 

As for your inability to see a workaround, that's a commentary on your own problem solving skills.

Am not saying it is bad to be immersed in multiple languages or that it is an impediment to learning.  I acknowledged a while ago that MT education may be an advantage.  I am actually proud of my ability to converse fluently in Tamil, Kannada and Hindi.  But we are talking about that. 

 

We are talking only about medium of instruction.  I still don't see how it can be implemented in situations where MT =/= local.  I see it as an insurmountable problem, unless you move everyone to states where their MT = local. That is all.    

 

 

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5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

I haven't skimmed thru the NEP yet so could you point me where exactly the document says a tamil medium school in delhi or Hindi medium school in kerala isn't allowed. English medium schools have existed with regional language schools since forever after all.

 

I am not underestimating the logistic, administrative challenges but you are simply being ridiculous here.

I haven't either.  I assumed from the convos here that local medium of instruction is going to be mandated.  And that's a problem.  As long as it is a choice to get MT education, it does not matter.  

 

Bottom line for me:  MT education is not detrimental.  MT education may be beneficial. Implementing mandated MT education in India is, unfortunately, impossible.  

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34 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

Don’t talk in hyperboles. We are talking about instruction to be in MT in primary education

Edited by coffee_rules
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19 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

True to forum/Social Media styled discussions, you we have picked side and being bone headed about it regardless of evidence and arguments. There's going to be no law ever that says only kannada medium schools would run in Karnataka - although a vast majority of schools would be in the local language. The rules are yet to be spelt out but it's certain that by MT, the NEP means any Indian language - a tamil school can run in bengaluru given enough demand for it.

 

Again: 

(1) MT education is beneficial (evidence accepted!!)

(2) Learning multiple languages in beneficial.

(3) English is not the be-all and end-all of education.

(4) IF and only IF local medium is mandated, there is a problem.  IF not, there is no problem.  IF only optional, there is no problem.

(5) If, as a Tamilian living in Jalandhar, I don't have to go to a Punjabi school, there is no problem.

  

Edited by BacktoCricaddict
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1 hour ago, zen said:

From what I understand, there is the option to acquire education is English too esp. from Grade 6 if I am not wrong. 

 

Also nothing wrong with plucking coconuts or driving taxis as well if people prefer to do that. Another cultural negative that needs to be weeded out is the disparagement of a variety of professions. People should be encouraged to do what they find interesting including being teachers, mechanics, etc., rather than equating success mainly with becoming a business tycoon or a C level executive.  

Absolutely agree.  I went overboard with that comment.  That was a total brainfade moment; thank you for calling it out.    

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8 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

If you are going to be this agitated about your precious tamil, it's best to read up the NEP. Being uninformed and that fake forum bluster is NOT a good look. The NEP categorically says kids are to be taught either in their mother tongue or the local language till grade 5.

It's not about Tamil.  That's just an illustration.  Again, the tone of the thread suggested this was going to be mandated.  And I rolled with it.  

 

So, now - let's consider a kid whose MT is A.  He lives in a state where local language in X.  There are not enough A-medium schools where he lives.  So, IYO, is he better off going to X-medium or English medium?  I don't think it matters - either way it is not his MT, so the benefits are non-existent.   

 

 

  

 

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10 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

And as I noted above, it'd be a challenge but by no means an insurmountable one. Besides, this case you are illustrating to rail against the NEP proposal would affect what percentage of the total cohort? My optimistic guess is less than 10 percent.

 

Remember, no policy measure is EVER a 100 percent hit. There are trade offs and there are misses. On balance, this NEP proposal passes the muster for me.

Not railing against it.  Just pointing out the flaws and the apparent lack of consideration for the simple idea that there are a significant number of people who work for govt, banks etc. that are transferred frequently.  And their kids' medium of instruction will keep changing from X to Y to Z, while MT will always be A.  Might as well keep them in English medium for uniformity.  

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1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

There is a lot of good in there.  But the local language instruction is a flaw.  Pointing it out doesn't mean one is against the whole thing.  

All newspapers share this...

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“The policy also says that wherever possible, the medium of instruction in schools until at least Class 5, but preferably until Class 8 and beyond, will be the home language or mother tongue or regional language. This is a long-held view, and has its merits, although in a large and diverse country where mobility is high, the student should have the option to study in the language that enables a transfer nationally. English has performed that role due to historical factors.”

 

What does wherever possible mean? It means it will not be enforced but encouraged . Hopefully, an option for people to exercise. Otherwise, it could be in Govt schools only. It will be a nightmare to implement it in spirit.


I think there is some motive of  the clause “wherever possible”. It might help some RSS run schools to implement it . Also, Govt might give tax incentives to schools which implement it. 

 

 

Edited by coffee_rules
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TN struck gold with its 2 language policy of Tamil and English in the 60's itself. Thank you C.N Annadurai. Tamil for us and English with rest of the world.

 

TN should stick with its 2 language policy. We don't need a 3rd language. Asking kids to learn 3 languages is a goddamn waste of time and puts unnecessary pressure on young kids thereby resulting in dropouts. Besides there are many more crucial life skills to be learnt instead of an unnecessary 3rd language.

 

Another policy that rest of the indian states to emulate.

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