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sandeep

NEP language fiasco

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I have studied in English schools including one of the best boarding schools. But regret not learning Sanskrit, which was offered as an option in my school :((

 

Unless you are from one of the metros, people in other places prefer to interact in local languages from what I have observed. The spoken English in India is also not spot on in general. It is referred to as Hinglish. 

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I think its a good move. It provides a level-playing field, particular those poor families whose children can get intimidated by English at a very early age, and give up their studies.

 

And long term, India needs to learn its own native vocabs and use its own terms to lead the world. 

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33 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

He is a CS professor in OKU and has written many books on consciousness. A KP as well. And a Padma Shri as well

 

 

Is English essential from pre-school as it is sold in India now?

I am, and have been a fan of his for decades.  But he is an example who overcame his late start disadvantage with English, in no small part due to his intellect.  Just because he succeeded, doesn't mean others automatically will.  The owner/founder of the Wendy's fast food chain is famously a high school drop-out.  Just because he became a billionaire, doesn't mean that most high school dropouts can do the same. 

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Even if it is proven 100% that learning in your mother tongue gives you a huge advantage, implementing it in India is extremely difficult if not impossible. The diversity of language - not just nationwide but even within cities and towns - is mindboggling. 

 

For many many people, local language is not necessarily mother tongue. 

 

The only way to make this happen is to restrict mobility, homogenize language within each state, and shove it down everyone's throat who lives in that state.  If Kak was working in Chennai, and had to hear this "Your MT is Hindi, Saar, aanaa inneelirindu onpayyan Tamil-la thaan padikkanum. Mind it" I'll bet you he's taking the next cab to American International School.  

 

Two choices:  (1) Send Kak back to Delhi or UP or wherever up North he's from OR (2) Declare Hindi the national language and teach everyone in Hindi medium - then we become China or Korea.      

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2 hours ago, Clarke said:

English isn't Russian, and you're again skipping the point that we already have a lot of schooling in Indian languages. I doubt there is any finding in India that schooling in Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Marathi etc has produced innovators beyond English schools. Even if hypothetically there was one, don't we have the space for all to exist ?

 

What you've done is picked the strengths of East Asia which were actually achieved by working their fingers to the bone, highlighted our systemic deficiencies such as rote learning and blamed it on English education with local language being the savior. That sounds like manipulation rather than causality. 

1. East Asian success wasn't owed to working their fingers to the bone. That's a lowkey racist trope that many Indians guzzle down. Perhaps to hide their own insecurities. The irrefutable fact is that these countries didn't pay *any* penalty - social and economic - for discarding english and choosing their own for pedagogical purposes. 

 

2. Rote learning is a direct consequence of linguistic impediment. Rote learning is what students are reduced to when they are not comfortable and confident enough in/with a language - to dissect and play around with concepts. It limits their creative space. Learning in their mother tongue prevents creative stultification.

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5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

1. East Asian success wasn't owed to working their fingers to the bone. That's a lowkey racist trope that many Indians guzzle down. Perhaps to hide their own insecurities. The irrefutable fact is that these countries didn't pay *any* penalty - social and economic - for discarding english and choosing their own for pedagogical purposes. 

 

2. Rote learning is a direct consequence of linguistic impediment. Rote learning is what students are reduced to when they are not comfortable and confident enough in/with a language - to dissect and play around with concepts. It limits their creative space. Learning in their mother tongue prevents creative stultification.

... and it worked because "their own" = 1.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Even if it is proven 100% that learning in your mother tongue gives you a huge advantage, implementing it in India is extremely difficult if not impossible. The diversity of language - not just nationwide but even within cities and towns - is mindboggling. 

 

For many many people, local language is not necessarily mother tongue. 

 

The only way to make this happen is to restrict mobility, homogenize language within each state, and shove it down everyone's throat who lives in that state.  If Kak was working in Chennai, and had to hear this "Your MT is Hindi, Saar, aanaa inneelirindu onpayyan Tamil-la thaan padikkanum. Mind it" I'll bet you he's taking the next cab to American International School.  

 

Two choices:  (1) Send Kak back to Delhi or UP or wherever up North he's from OR (2) Declare Hindi the national language and teach everyone in Hindi medium - then we become China or Korea.      

There *is* in fact a consensus among linguists that a child learns best in the language he's immersed in  - at home, with friends socializing, and of course school.

 

The rest of your post raises a good point about the modalities, logistics, and administrative side of the new proposal. But it is something that can be worked out.

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Just now, BacktoCricaddict said:

... and it worked because "their own" = 1.  

 

 

Way to miss the point. Indians having a gazillion languages is not an issue. AT ALL. The point is to teach students in the language that they grow up with - it enriches both the student and the language itself.

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Just now, sarchasm said:

There *is* in fact a consensus among linguists that a child learns best in the language he's immersed in  - at home, with friends socializing, and of course school.

 

The rest of your post raises a good point about the modalities, logistics, and administrative side of the new proposal. But it is something that can be worked out.

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

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5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Way to miss the point. Indians having a gazillion languages is not an issue. AT ALL. The point is to teach students in the language that they grow up with - it enriches both the student and the language itself.

I think we are talking past each other.  For implementation, it *is* the issue.  The biggest one.  When MT =/= local language, how do you fix the problem?  

 

My mother tongue is Palakkad Tamizh.  I grew up in Bengaluru.  I was immersed in Tamizh at home.  My MT.  Learning in Kannada medium or English medium is the same for me.  Or do I demand Tamizh medium in Bengaluru just for me?  Chaplee yEttashte.    

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2 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

Not being immersed in one language - being proficient in multiple languages growing up - isn't a problem at all. It's amusing to me that you think I am implying being immersed in multiple languages is some kind of an impediment to learning.

 

As for your inability to see a workaround, that's a commentary on your own problem solving skills.

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10 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

From what I understand, there is the option to acquire education is English too esp. from Grade 6 if I am not wrong. 

 

Also nothing wrong with plucking coconuts or driving taxis as well if people prefer to do that. Another cultural negative that needs to be weeded out is the disparagement of a variety of professions. People should be encouraged to do what they find interesting including being teachers, mechanics, etc., rather than equating success mainly with becoming a business tycoon or a C level executive.  

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4 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I think we are talking past each other.  For implementation, it *is* the issue.  The biggest one.  When MT =/= local language, how do you fix the problem?  

 

My mother tongue is Palakkad Tamizh.  I grew up in Bengaluru.  I was immersed in Tamizh at home.  My MT.  Learning in Kannada medium or English medium is the same for me.  Or do I demand Tamizh medium in Bengaluru just for me?  Chaplee yEttashte.    

I haven't skimmed thru the NEP yet so could you point me where exactly the document says a tamil medium school in delhi or Hindi medium school in kerala isn't allowed. English medium schools have existed with regional language schools since forever after all.

 

I am not underestimating the logistic, administrative challenges but you are simply being ridiculous here.

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7 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Not being immersed in one language - being proficient in multiple languages growing up - isn't a problem at all. It's amusing to me that you think I am implying being immersed in multiple languages is some kind of an impediment to learning.

 

As for your inability to see a workaround, that's a commentary on your own problem solving skills.

Am not saying it is bad to be immersed in multiple languages or that it is an impediment to learning.  I acknowledged a while ago that MT education may be an advantage.  I am actually proud of my ability to converse fluently in Tamil, Kannada and Hindi.  But we are talking about that. 

 

We are talking only about medium of instruction.  I still don't see how it can be implemented in situations where MT =/= local.  I see it as an insurmountable problem, unless you move everyone to states where their MT = local. That is all.    

 

 

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5 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

I haven't skimmed thru the NEP yet so could you point me where exactly the document says a tamil medium school in delhi or Hindi medium school in kerala isn't allowed. English medium schools have existed with regional language schools since forever after all.

 

I am not underestimating the logistic, administrative challenges but you are simply being ridiculous here.

I haven't either.  I assumed from the convos here that local medium of instruction is going to be mandated.  And that's a problem.  As long as it is a choice to get MT education, it does not matter.  

 

Bottom line for me:  MT education is not detrimental.  MT education may be beneficial. Implementing mandated MT education in India is, unfortunately, impossible.  

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34 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Many many people are not immersed in one language.  And I don't see a workaround.  IF I had to stay in Palakkad to get MT instruction, I'd be stuck plecking coconuts in Kalpathi or driving taxi in Dubai.  

Don’t talk in hyperboles. We are talking about instruction to be in MT in primary education

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31 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I haven't either.  I assumed from the convos here that local medium of instruction is going to be mandated.  And that's a problem.  As long as it is a choice to get MT education, it does not matter.  

 

Bottom line for me:  MT education is not detrimental.  MT education may be beneficial. Implementing mandated MT education in India is, unfortunately, impossible.  

True to forum/Social Media styled discussions, you have picked side and being bone headed about it regardless of evidence and arguments. There's going to be no law ever that says only kannada medium schools would run in Karnataka - although a vast majority of schools would be in the local language. The rules are yet to be spelt out but it's certain that by MT, the NEP means any Indian language - a tamil school can run in bengaluru given enough demand for it.

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2 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

Forget about school . If we all start writing in our Mother tongue on icf then ICF won't survive beyond few days. English is must for india.  without English you will see several separatists movements emerging.

Nobody has banned the english language itself. Or even the teaching of english in schools. Read up and stop wasting internet bandwidth.

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