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Lil Early to Say but this England side are showing Flashes of the Dominant Australian side

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4 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Also have to credit Rashid & Curran for their 9th wicket partnership of 76 runs. Australia lost the plot there.

Actually this is foundation of their Odi approach. Yesterday, Archer came in at 11 & he is a capable batsman. Such a luxury to have & distant dreams for teams like India.

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9 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

Actually this is foundation of their Odi approach. Yesterday, Archer came in at 11 & he is a capable batsman. Such a luxury to have & distant dreams for teams like India.

Archer came in faced 2 balls, took a double and a boundary.

 

Our bowlers would have been bundled out for 160-170 and australia would have rolled us over with 6 wickets to spare.

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3 hours ago, aditya19 said:

england has excellent bench strength and all rounders that are helping them. its a bit difficult to find good lower order bats and all rounders as they dont get much chances in domestic teams.

we have a few coming who can get in side for bowling and can hold bat unlike thakur 

Rahul chahar, Mavi, nagarkotti are the options and rahul n nagarkoti are excellent fielders to 

 

but yea for them its few years as of now 

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5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

we have a few coming who can get in side for bowling and can hold bat unlike thakur 

Rahul chahar, Mavi, nagarkotti are the options and rahul n nagarkoti are excellent fielders to 

 

but yea for them its few years as of now 

Need to groom Darshan Nalkande and Abhimanyu Singh Rajput. 

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7 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Even if we do bring them bowlers who can bat, ICFers will then complain that our bowling is crap and we need specialist bowlers.

But those English players make it to the team in bowling first. Batting is just bonus.

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One thing this english team is above that Aussie team is their bowlers are more than capable bats.They can bat upto #11 even without guys like Stokes in the playing 11.

 

Tom and Sam curran can bat. Rashid can bat. David willey hit a 50 against us in 2018. Liam Plunkett can bat. The only bowler who can't bat like the rest would be Mark wood.

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20 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

One thing this english team is above that Aussie team is their bowlers are more than capable bats.They can bat upto #11 even without guys like Stokes in the playing 11.

 

Tom and Sam curran can bat. Rashid can bat. David willey hit a 50 against us in 2018. Liam Plunkett can bat. The only bowler who can't bat like the rest would be Mark wood.

Archer can bat to, capable to play game changing cameos.

This is what helps them to even achieve 250 most days when its a collapse and archer n wood are bowlers who can win u games. Not to forget woakes n rashid who keeps chipping away with wkts and then stokes who make things happen. Root is also there as a golden arm for them. 

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8 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

while we seem to do well in ICC tourneys only when the pitches are conducive to spin even if moderately, this English team can play exceedingly well in all the other conditons except on slow wickets. 

i want to see this full fledged side play on subcontinental wkts with wood n archer

last time they were in India their attack wasnt great 

 

willey , woakes, ball on indian wkts wasnt an ideal attack . 

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

i want to see this full fledged side play on subcontinental wkts with wood n archer

last time they were in India their attack wasnt great 

 

willey , woakes, ball on indian wkts wasnt an ideal attack . 

they will win each and every match if they play their best eleven on pattas..  ofcourse things like dew might spoil their party

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Just now, Vk1 said:

they will win each and every match if they play their best eleven on pattas..  ofcourse things like dew might spoil their party

you cant win each n every game against indian side in their home, it ll be a close contest and if pitches turn we have advantage ..if its like wankhade well its anyones game

 

In SL they can win each n every game

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

you cant win each n every game against indian side in their home, it ll be a close contest and if pitches turn we have advantage ..if its like wankhade well its anyones game

 

In SL they can win each n every game

even in India I expect them to clean sweep us if they play their best 11 and on absoulte flat tracks.. they have become a freakish side on such flat pitches.. 

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3 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

even in India I expect them to clean sweep us if they play their best 11 and on absoulte flat tracks.. they have become a freakish side on such flat pitches.. 

In India they cant clean sweep, clean sweep is very very tough in ODi specially when opp has rohit, kohli, Bumrah, dhawan playing in their own backyard. Our middle order is in much much better shape now and Rahul plays archer damn well...infact all our batsman play archer well...woakes aint getting much swing in India 

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1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In India they cant clean sweep, clean sweep is very very tough in ODi specially when opp has rohit, kohli, Bumrah, dhawan playing in their own backyard. Our middle order is in much much better shape now and Rahul plays archer damn well...infact all our batsman play archer well...woakes aint getting much swing in India 

They came close last time..  Almost chased 380+ in 2nd ODI 2017. Morgan played a blinder.  Smashed us in 3rd game. 

With this bowling line up & that batting line..  Full strength english team can clean sweep us. 

We got clean sweeped by NZ recently so we ain't infallible 

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2 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

They came close last time..  Almost chased 380+ in 2nd ODI 2017. Morgan played a blinder.  Smashed us in 3rd game. 

With this bowling line up & that batting line..  Full strength english team can clean sweep us. 

We got clean sweeped by NZ recently so we ain't infallible 

NZ clean sweeped us in their home

here we are talking about in India.......i dnt think thats happening 

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10 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

NZ clean sweeped us in their home

here we are talking about in India.......i dnt think thats happening 

I know..  Just saying its not that far fetched.  WI nearly beat us on flat tracks last time.  

Indian tracks,  fast outfields are just too much favourable to this English batting lineup.  English bowling was too poor in 2017 & still they were close to beat us in first two games.. Won in 3rd.  Now with much much better lineup they are more than enough to beat India. 

Not saying India can't do the same but England have more than a chance.  Indian spinners are key to beat them...  If they are out of form then we got no chance. 

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24 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In India they cant clean sweep, clean sweep is very very tough in ODi specially when opp has rohit, kohli, Bumrah, dhawan playing in their own backyard. Our middle order is in much much better shape now and Rahul plays archer damn well...infact all our batsman play archer well...woakes aint getting much swing in India 

they have become an even better side since their previous visit.. ours is a confused team good enough to beat all the othersides but not Eng

Edited by Vk1

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People need to understand even we can chase whatever they post against us, bilaterals are no pressure thing,we can chase 350 against this very attack,

Problem lies when we post totals in flat tracks we tend to get confused and become super circumspect in search of anchoring innings (top3)which is dangerous ploy against ,hypersonic lineup like England

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16 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

they have become an even better side since their previous visit.. ours is a confused team good enough to beat all the othersides but not Eng

confused ?? in what regd

Post iyer, rahul our middle order is so better now and once hardik plays along them it ll be much better, addition of saini also has made bowling better 

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Top team has some extra advantage 

 

SA use to make a diff of 20-25 runs in field 

Aus, WI had the bowling to win despite scoring sub par totals

England depth is giving them an advantage of 40 runs 

 

India needs to find its extra advantage....if they dont have the depth that england has no need to copy them . Work on our strength ....may be using bumrah , saini and spinners to choke opposition in middle overs. Also start looking for 2 aggresive batsman as 2 slots shud be open now

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15 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

confused ?? in what regd

Post iyer, rahul our middle order is so better now and once hardik plays along them it ll be much better, addition of saini also has made bowling better 

20 overs of our spinners will be a problem.. middle order is still unsettled and HPandya rarely lasts for couple of months.. I like Iyer a lot but he is still raw..  Pant should hopefully do well going forward... all these may not be a problem against other sides but can become glaring against this Eng side..  

Main thing is their intimidating batting unit.. can score anything from any situation and can choke opponents just with that score. * all these on absoulte flat tracks

Edited by Vk1

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I wont look at the past results too much against this English setup. Its their improvement of players that makes then scary. They are planning meticulously and making rapid strides as a result. Their bowling has come leaps since 2018 when we last toured them and have added quality bench strength to their batting. I wont be surprised if in the next 2-3 years they plan multiple tours to the SC for improving their game on slow pitches for 2023.

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Not in my book.

 

Most of Eng batting seems hit or miss and doesn't seem to have one batsman with the quality and finesse of a Damien Martyn, let alone Ponting. Who's gonna hold up an end when conditions are tougher, Joe the Root canal ? 

 

Aussies were actually a rampaging juggernaut in World Cups going unbeaten for a long time, these guys barely won on a technicality in 2019. 

 

Even when it comes to bowling, Archer & Wood look good but do they have the quality of McGrath & Lee/others over the long term ? I'm not gonna insult Warne by comparing him to English spinners. In WC 2003, they almost didn't miss Warnie, that's how well rounded that team was at its peak. 

 

Someone mentioned Eng lower order batting being better, may be this is partially true. The thing is Eng go about taking a lot of risks and end up depending on the rescue acts now and then. Aus didn't need that, and once in a while Lee/Warne did make some contribution. Who knows, they may have made more runs if they needed to do so as often as Eng does. 

 

Buttler & Stokes are comparable to Gilchrist & Symonds, for every other equivalent Aus is hands down superior, which is why this is a flawed comparison.

 

Would we have this discussion if Smith was playing & helped whitewash Eng on their turf ?

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25 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Not in my book.

 

Most of Eng batting seems hit or miss and doesn't seem to have one batsman with the quality and finesse of a Damien Martyn, let alone Ponting. Who's gonna hold up an end when conditions are tougher, Joe the Root canal ? 

 

Aussies were actually a rampaging juggernaut in World Cups going unbeaten for a long time, these guys barely won on a technicality in 2019. 

 

Even when it comes to bowling, Archer & Wood look good but do they have the quality of McGrath & Lee/others over the long term ? I'm not gonna insult Warne by comparing him to English spinners. In WC 2003, they almost didn't miss Warnie, that's how well rounded that team was at its peak. 

 

Someone mentioned Eng lower order batting being better, may be this is partially true. The thing is Eng go about taking a lot of risks and end up depending on the rescue acts now and then. Aus didn't need that, and once in a while Lee/Warne did make some contribution. Who knows, they may have made more runs if they needed to do so as often as Eng does. 

 

Buttler & Stokes are comparable to Gilchrist & Symonds, for every other equivalent Aus is hands down superior, which is why this is a flawed comparison.

 

Would we have this discussion if Smith was playing & helped whitewash Eng on their turf ?

you may be right in your analysis but the point is England need not be as good as the Aussies of that time.. they can be a very good side and still be dominating the odi game.. 

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15 hours ago, Stan AF said:

One thing this english team is above that Aussie team is their bowlers are more than capable bats.They can bat upto #11 even without guys like Stokes in the playing 11.

 

Tom and Sam curran can bat. Rashid can bat. David willey hit a 50 against us in 2018. Liam Plunkett can bat. The only bowler who can't bat like the rest would be Mark wood.

Does anyone on this board realize there is a third phase to the game called fielding?  This England squad is total shite at it with Stokes out and the dominant AUS teams rarely if ever let a batsman off the hook with sloppy play in the field.  This ENG team is better batting side, old AUS teams were better with the ball on a consistent basis but the fielding is MILES apart.  And that is what makes the old AUS team the greater of the two.

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Overall figures
Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/LDescending Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
England 2017-2020 60 39 15 1 5 2.600 40.98 6.27 57 481 113 investigate this query
India 2017-2020 65 43 19 2 1 2.263 44.30 5.78 64 392 92 investigate this query
New Zealand 2017-2020 44 28 14 1 1 2.000 36.67 5.53 44 371 157 investigate this query
South Africa 2017-2020 45 27 16 0 2 1.687 38.06 5.55 45 369 118 investigate this query
Bangladesh 2017-2020 44 23 21 0 0 1.095 33.73 5.43 44 333 82 investigate this query
Pakistan 2017-2019 48 22 24 0 2 0.916 37.23 5.53 48 399 74 investigate this query
Australia 2017-2020 51 23 28 0 0 0.821 34.10 5.68 51 381 152 investigate this query
West Indies 2017-2020 60 21 34 1 4 0.617 33.24 5.55 57 389 104 investigate this query
Sri Lanka 2017-2020 49 17 31 0 1 0.548 27.19 5.36 48 366 103

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Key words by @Ankit_sharma03

 

Early to say

Flashes

 

Dunno why people are missing the point he is trying to say. We may never see another ATG side like WI/Aus but 3rd spot up for grabs. 

thank u for saying that ...cant bang my head enough in the wall anymore for something i hvent even written, ridiculous how they are mentioning those ATG strength which i never even said this ENG side possesed. 

 

50 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

Important thing to note.. this was a series played in Sept in England on pitches assisting spinners.. this is their achilees heel.. 

But, normally ODI game is played 80% of the time on absolute flat tracks..  so they will continue to dominate

its ok to loose a series even ATG  Aus lost to pakistan in 2002 in australia itself 

In a 3 match series it cud go any where, they lost to one of the greatest ODI partnership and sometimes u got to hand it to opposition. 

This Aussie side is pretty good unlike many are saying its is bad- Damn bloody good bowling attack, Warner finch very good opening, carrey now doesnt look great but wait till he retires and players like Maxi can turn the game on its head which he did 

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How many of these players will walk into England all time ODI side?

 

Trescrothik

Bairstow

Root

Morgan(c)

Stokes

Buttler (wkt)

Flintoff

Swann/Rashid

Gough

Anderson

 

Archer might get into the side as well in few years time.

Edited by Majestic

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2 hours ago, Majestic said:

How many of these players will walk into England all time ODI side?

 

Trescrothik

Bairstow

Root

Morgan(c)

Stokes

Buttler (wkt)

Flintoff

Swann/Rashid

Gough

Anderson

 

Archer might get into the side as well in few years time.

Trescothick 

bairstow 

kp 

morgan 

stokes

buttler

flintoff

Woakes 

swann

Gough 

anderson

 

 

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2 hours ago, Majestic said:

How many of these players will walk into England all time ODI side?

 

Trescrothik

Bairstow

Root

Morgan(c)

Stokes

Buttler (wkt)

Flintoff

Swann/Rashid

Gough

Anderson

 

Archer might get into the side as well in few years time.

No kevin pietersen ?

10 player team

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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23 hours ago, speedheat said:

This side is a midget not even close  to ATG Aussie side.

Yep, they make too many mistakes at key moments. Austrailain all time great team could win from any position too

 

. However they never got the basics wrong, they never dropped catches or missed run outs, wouldn't bowl no balls at key times. Butler is a very poor keeper and will continue to cost key wickets. All matches of recent series have been really close.  While aussies could come back when down, most times they absolutely thumped their opposition. This team couldn't even thrash Pakistan in one single match and Pakistan is a very poor one day team 

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:33 AM, Gollum said:

Key words by @Ankit_sharma03

 

Early to say

Flashes

 

Dunno why people are missing the point he is trying to say. We may never see another ATG side like WI/Aus but 3rd spot up for grabs. 

the thing is, there are 2 aspects of an ATG team 

 

1) They absolutely dominate other teams most times. They thump and demoralize their opponents and put the fear of God in them

 

2) They can fight back from any position to win any match and any player can stand up when needed 

 

This English team is showing glimpses of the later but I have not seen the former. Thsy couldn't even thump pakistan, which is a really weak team, in any format, even in one single match. And the reason is they make too many mistakes. Drop catches, missed chances, at key times. Butler is a liability being played for his batting. He dropped Maxwells catch at a key moment in the decider 

 

 

And IMO 1 is more important than 2 to be an ATG team. An ATG team shouldn't find itself in too many difficult situations 

 

Till england learn to really thrash opposition (and not just by final series score but in individual matches), it wont be anywhere near an ATG team and wouldn't be greater than Dhonis team 

Edited by New guy

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2 hours ago, New guy said:

the thing is, there are 2 aspects of an ATG team 

 

1) They absolutely dominate other teams most times. They thump and demoralize their opponents and put the fear of God in them

 

2) They can fight back from any position to win any match and any player can stand up when needed 

 

This English team is showing glimpses of the later but I have not seen the former. Thsy couldn't even thump pakistan, which is a really weak team, in any format, even in one single match. And the reason is they make too many mistakes. Drop catches, missed chances, at key times. Butler is a liability being played for his batting. He dropped Maxwells catch at a key moment in the decider 

 

 

And IMO 1 is more important than 2 to be an ATG team. An ATG team shouldn't find itself in too many difficult situations 

 

Till england learn to really thrash opposition (and not just by final series score but in individual matches), it wont be anywhere near an ATG team and wouldn't be greater than Dhonis team 

     There are 2-3 areas where Eng is vulnerable and any team which can exploit those will make eng re- think their team composition and with that the edge of deep batting strength may also go away. Right now even if they lose 2-3 wickets in PP, they still get around 6 per over and make 280 plus runs due deep batting strength. 

     1. Pacers - apart from Archer & Wood  - other bowlers depend too much on slower balls to avoid getting smashed . If other  teams devise a way

        to counter this and easily score 8-9 runs per over without giving away too many wickets to them ,they will have to  replace likes of Woakes, Tom & S. curren .  That will lead to losing their deep batting depth . Batsmen need to wait and they will get 1-2 balls per over among those slower balls to get a boundary . 

 2. Spinners - Their ageing spinners are not that great , though if you listen to Eng commies like Nasser , they make Rashid as among the best in the world . Once you start attacking them &  nullify the threat , team combo will be in mess . 

3. The batsmen are vulnerable if there is some seam deviation or against spinners who  are not one dimensional and difficult to read. . Better to have such bowlers vs them ( A swing bowler may be more effective than a pacy bowler without much seam deviation) .  

4. Since they want Buttler as WK , their WK will always be suspect for spinners and it may cost them big in crucial matches . 

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